An early look at them great vault, i.e. the new weekly chest.

[Segus1992]

You'd actually get less rolls on loot per week as a prog raider than someone who only runs m+ fyi.

You wouldn't, no. Unless you're casual enough to not clear the raid on the lower difficulty. In which case you're definitely too casual to run M+ more than once a week.

[kaminaris]

It changes nothing for you, run your weekly key get the reward for your highest weekly key.

It changes a lot because you forgot about loot being more rare. If he only does one M+ a week he will be behind like crazy, remember? No showering in loot.

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But it is better than what we have for whom exactly? For mythic raiders. Not only they get a free weekly chest from just raiding, so they don't have to bother with M+ ever again, they will also get options to choose from that chest.

Of course raiders will "have to" run M+ "in case your mythic rewards sucks"

[Segus1992]

But it is better than what we have for whom exactly? For mythic raiders. Not only they get a free weekly chest from just raiding, so they don't have to bother with M+ ever again, they will also get options to choose from that chest. And they can put the same amount of effort as today and do 1 weekly M+ and get even more choices. They get what was promised at blizzcon - an obvious and unconditional improvement.

But for someone that does a few M+ every week, this doesn't really change anything. This is just one of the many changes that show that playstyle is no longer going to be supported. Removal of titanforging, loot reduction and now requiring an absurd amount of dungeons weekly just to get a few options. Is this an improvement? Most definitely not. You will be worse off overall even if you do those 15 dungeons every week.

It's better for PvPers since they don't have to do M+ for loot.
It's better for raiders.
M+ is too good for loot currently, so it shouldn't be better for them.

To achieve what you currently get, you just need to do a single M+ - with no Corruptions or Titanforging, the new loot system will still give you a higher chance of a useful item than before (especially with how many shitty Azerite pieces there currently are).

[Tradu]

While I agree, I would also hate if people capable of doing +15 would spam +2's for maximum reward. I don't think it's good design either.

I would personally hate running meaningless dungeons as well, and would prefer actually being rewarded for doing hard content (but less of it) instead of easy content (but alot of it).

Yeah, completely agree.

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I do understand how loot works.

Under the assumption that you get raid loot from raid, m+ loot from m+ and pvp loot from pvp. I do not NEED raid or pvp bracers unless they have the actual BiS stats. So if the BEST XYZ slot comes from ABC content you'd actually just need to do that specific content for a chance at the reward. Regardless of total number of chance.

Since you're a Fire Mage, it's safe to assume that the absolute best bracers are the mecagon ones right ? Knowing that, why would you spend your time killing 10 bosses and earning 250 conquest points on top of running 15 keys when you only have 3 chances out of 9 to drop them ?

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You'd actually get less rolls on loot per week as a prog raider than someone who only runs m+ fyi.

The Mechagon bracers are a massive exception. Regular bracers with stats come from any content.

[Azharok]

You wouldn't, no. Unless you're casual enough to not clear the raid on the lower difficulty. In which case you're definitely too casual to run M+ more than once a week.

Oh for the love of god .....

Filling up the gauge =/= unlocking usefull stuff.

I do not care if you kill 50% of bosses in normal mode because you're hard stuck on heroic... if you get awarded normal loot from 2nd or 3rd chest odds are you wont need it so the point is moot.

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The Mechagon bracers are a massive exception. Regular bracers with stats come from any content.

It's not though, BiS items are BiS, regardless of content they come from.

If you play BM you'd want crit/haste, no point doing PVP chest if all they give is Vers/XYZ.

465 bracers with the correct stats sim higher than 475 with the wrong ones.

It doesn't invalidate my point.

[thrill]

It's better for PvPers since they don't have to do M+ for loot.

Unless ilvl doesn't matter in bg/arena, or PVP gear is radically different from PVE (PVP power), PVPers would still need to do m+ and/or raid to be competitive. You need to be competing in the top bracket to be eligible for max ilvl gear, and you're going to be competing against people who already have max ilvl gear/conduits from PVE to get there.

[burek]

M+ is too good for loot currently, so it shouldn't be better for them.

No it is not. Best geared people are mythic raiders, as they always were. They are going to be even better now. Even the weekly chest, which was a M+ thing is now actually going to be more of a raiding chest. Shadowlands is going back to raid or die.

[Azharok]

It changes a lot because you forgot about loot being more rare. If he only does one M+ a week he will be behind like crazy, remember? No showering in loot.

I overlooked the actual looting in dungeon, but I throw away pretty everything now ... so it's not like I count that as loot ....

[Segus1992]

Oh for the love of god .....

Filling up the gauge =/= unlocking usefull stuff.

I do not care if you kill 50% of bosses in normal mode because you're hard stuck on heroic... if you get awarded normal loot from 2nd or 3rd chest odds are you wont need it so the point is moot.

If you're hard stuck on heroic you definitely still need normal loot, unless you're absolutely terrible.

Logic is hard it seems. You're making a comparison between someone struggling with heroic to someone running +15 keys as if the person running +15 keys should have to work a lot harder to deserve the same loot.

[Doffen]

But it is better than what we have for whom exactly? For mythic raiders. Not only they get a free weekly chest from just raiding, so they don't have to bother with M+ ever again, they will also get options to choose from that chest. And they can put the same amount of effort as today and do 1 weekly M+ and get even more choices. They get what was promised at blizzcon - an obvious and unconditional improvement.

But for someone that does a few M+ every week, this doesn't really change anything. This is just one of the many changes that show that playstyle is no longer going to be supported. Removal of titanforging, loot reduction and now requiring an absurd amount of dungeons weekly just to get a few options. Is this an improvement? Most definitely not. You will be worse off overall even if you do those 15 dungeons every week.

How is both the choice and the increased chance of getting an item you want, worse than getting that one item with no choice at all attached? How is this new system worse?

[Tradu]

Oh for the love of god .....

Filling up the gauge =/= unlocking usefull stuff.

I do not care if you kill 50% of bosses in normal mode because you're hard stuck on heroic... if you get awarded normal loot from 2nd or 3rd chest odds are you wont need it so the point is moot.

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It's not though, BiS items are BiS, regardless of content they come from.

If you play BM you'd want crit/haste, no point doing PVP chest if all they give is Vers/XYZ.

465 bracers with the correct stats sim higher than 475 with the wrong ones.

It doesn't invalidate my point.

BiS isn't the only thing that matters, on progress just getting an upgrade at all matters, and chances of that are higher with more options. And there will be items from content you don't want to do that's BiS, just like on live.

[thilicen]

So instead of doing 1 M+ for the chance of getting best possible item I will have to do 15 mythic+ dungeons?

Da fuq Blizz XD

EDIT:

But wait... It's even worse!

Mythic+ item level is determined by the lowest level of the top X dungeons.

So a person who did +20, +15 +16, AND +5 to help alts will get +5 mythic cache?
While someone who just did once +6 dungeon will receive better rewards?

Nice options Blizz xD

If only you knew how to read.

[Segus1992]

Unless ilvl doesn't matter in bg/arena, or PVP gear is radically different from PVE (PVP power), PVPers would still need to do m+ and/or raid to be competitive. You need to be competing in the top bracket to be eligible for max ilvl gear, and you're going to be competing against people who already have max ilvl gear/conduits from PVE to get there.

Max weekly reward from the PvP chest is at 1800+ rating currently. If you think that's top bracket, then yeah alright you probably need to raid.

Shadowlands is also increasing PvP rewards through Conquest - if that's enough to not need PvE remains to be seen, but it's unquestionably better than current.

No it is not. Best geared people are mythic raiders, as they always were. They are going to be even better now. Even the weekly chest, which was a M+ thing is now actually going to be more of a raiding chest. Shadowlands is going back to raid or die.

+15 is far easier than Mythic raids. It's better gear from Mythic raids (as it should be), but M+ is much easier and still necessary to run for Mythic raiders because of how lucrative it is.

Move the max rewards from M+ to +20 and you'd have a point though.

[RCA]

Can’t even tell if this will be liked. I mean it feels like you’re going up to loot Santa, while he checks off everything you did well this past weekly session and let’s you chose accordingly based on your deeds. I guess people want the correct payback for the investment of their time but just feels a little off for me. Oh well.

[Ishayu]

I like it a lot, but isn't 15 M+ dungeons a little bit high? Do we really want M+ is to be like PvP is in BfA?

I'd say 10 raid bosses defeated is about equivalent to 10 M+ dungeons at most. So make it 1, 3, 10 or something.

[burek]

How is both the choice and the increased chance of getting an item you want, worse than getting that one item with no choice at all attached? How is this new system worse?

It is worse if you are not a mythic raider, since you will be falling even more behind.

[Hellobolis]

10 raid bosses = pugs can clear heroic in a few hours after a while, guilds get it passively.
15 dungeons = ~12 hours if a dungeon takes 45min everything included, can get it down to 8 orso if you power through.
250 conquest = hour or two.

amount of effort between the three seems balanced :P

[Wuusah]

I like it a lot, but isn't 15 M+ dungeons a little bit high? Do we really want M+ is to be like PvP is in BfA?

I'd say 10 raid bosses defeated is about equivalent to 10 M+ dungeons at most. So make it 1, 3, 10 or something.

I'd say 1, 3, 7 would make the most sense. It doubles the amount of runs you need to do from one to the next. One for the first, two additional for the second, 4 additional for the third. And on top of that, 7 is a good number to have for a weekly task. You could do one dungeon a day, for example.

[Azharok]

If you're hard stuck on heroic you definitely still need normal loot, unless you're absolutely terrible.

Logic is hard it seems. You're making a comparison between someone struggling with heroic to someone running +15 keys as if the person running +15 keys should have to work a lot harder to deserve the same loot.

Logic aint hard, you're dragging this argument along and moving the goal post while we argue over it, or maybe I'm getting really confused over what the original point was.

You said running 15 keys is longer than FARMING a raid. I agree to that.

The idea however is that you would like to get upgrades from the weekly chest doing content you like.

SO, If you are progging on bosses and devoting 1 or 2 nights and can't secure a kill in heroic or mythic (difficulty matters very little) you've just wasted 2 nights out of your 3 day schedule. At which point you fall back to an easier difficulty to FARM the raid and fill the bar. Depending on how many kills you scored for the relevant content you are doing, by the time you fill the bar with "irrelevant" content you wont actually need the loot from the lower chest.


HOWEVER if you ran M+ those same 3 nights, and did your 5 keys a night you could probably start from a +2 (for argument's sake) and push it all the way to 15 runs like so :

2-5-8-11-13-14-15-16-15-14-15-16-17-16-17

So first chest would be M17, second would be M16 and 3rd chest would be M2.

So you'd get 2 good options and bad one.

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BiS isn't the only thing that matters, on progress just getting an upgrade at all matters, and chances of that are higher with more options. And there will be items from content you don't want to do that's BiS, just like on live.

But if you're progging aren't the odds of the SINGLE item you get from your weekly prog kill being an upgrade pretty high ?

I mean everyone is looking at this system like everything is already on farm. I'd be happy with ONE chance at Mythic raid gear from the chest.

So M+ and PVP players will be "FORCED" (since everyone is using this word) to kill at least ONE mythic boss to get better gear on top of the 15+ keys every week. Or they could do a weekly key, a weekly boss and logout, or you know, enjoy the game ?

[Segus1992]

Logic aint hard, you're dragging this argument along and moving the goal post while we argue over it, or maybe I'm getting really confused over what the original point was.

You said running 15 keys is longer than FARMING a raid. I agree to that.

The idea however is that you would like to get upgrades from the weekly chest doing content you like.

SO, If you are progging on bosses and devoting 1 or 2 nights and can't secure a kill in heroic or mythic (difficulty matters very little) you've just wasted 2 nights out of your 3 day schedule. At which point you fall back to an easier difficulty to FARM the raid and fill the bar. Depending on how many kills you scored for the relevant content you are doing, by the time you fill the bar with "irrelevant" content you wont actually need the loot from the lower chest.


HOWEVER if you ran M+ those same 3 nights, and did your 5 keys a night you could probably start from a +2 (for argument's sake) and push it all the way to 15 runs like so :

2-5-8-11-13-14-15-16-15-14-15-16-17-16-17

So first chest would be M17, second would be M16 and 3rd chest would be M2.

So you'd get 2 good options and bad one.

First of all, we don't know if the reward scheme will be the same as current. Difficulty wise a +15 is closer to heroic raids than mythic raids. It's possible the weekly chest will reflect that.

If you're doing 15 keys at a level where you're actually struggling, they'll take an hour+ each. If you're spending 15 hours in a raid and can't kill 10 bosses, you'll see the week as a waste anyway - you can literally always use gear from the previous difficulty for your raid unless you're seriously underperforming (as in, to the point where you probably won't ever clear the raid anyway), OR you're working on the final boss anyway, meaning you have almost filled your gauge with hard bosses already.