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  1. #1

    Who was the better villain in the dark knight movies?

    So I'm limiting this to Band and the Joker. Who was the better villain. I found both to be extremely well done but having trouble deciding who was better.

    Heath Ledger's joker





    Tom Hardy's Bane

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  2. #2
    Elemental Lord Kyphael's Avatar
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    Between those two? Joker. Bane was great, but ultimately a pawn, and Hardy's acting doesn't touch Ledger's. In my opinion, a better case could be made for Liam Neeson's Ra's Al Ghul against Ledger's Joker.


  3. #3
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    I liked Tom Hardy's Bane, one of the good things in that otherwise shitty movie, but Heath Ledger's Joker is the definitive Joker other Jokers compare themselves to. No contest.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by the game View Post
    Snip
    Better as in how? The actor/character side? Or do you mean the story or their success and integration into the overall narative?

    On the Actor side, Ledger's Joker is a transcendent character. Hardy is fantastic, definitely the flat out better actor but Bane doesn't quite reach the level. The strongest points with Bane are his introduction, his "do you feel in charge" scene, and the monologue'ing while breaking Batman's back. Those scenes are great the first 2 give me chills in a way, but they don't quite reach the same heights as Ledger's Joker. The intro, the pencil, do I look like a man with a plan, he basically monopolizes the attention of the movie, and no one else can really keep up.

    I think Bane is far better worked into the story though, he dominates the narrative while not being in the scene. He's successful against Batman, and then the "twist" and his death scene is far more of a pay off then just Joker swinging and laughing and then not mattering anymore (I get this was a narrative decision driven partly by Ledger's death and the plan to have Joker in more Batman movies.) Bane seems like a threat to Batman and Gotham... Joker seems more contained in that he's focused on Batman. Basically Bane would kill Batman and anyone else, Joker is more focused on fucking with Batman.

  5. #5
    Not even close. It’s Joker. Tom Hardy did a very good job as Bane, but Ledger’s Joker is iconic. Joaquin Phoenix did a great job with the role and deserved the Oscar he got, but I feel him being the Joker in a Batman universe was almost secondary to the character. You could have had the same story without those elements. In the Dark Knight, you cannot tell that story without those characters. Joker exists as a response to Batman. That’s a key difference. Phoenix’s Joker is a product of his upbringing and environment and the time it takes place in and we bear full witness to it. But in the Dark Knight, we do not get the full story. We have pieces of it, which may or may not be true. There is the theory he is a former soldier suffering from massive PTSD, but that has never been confirmed by Nolan. That makes him far more dangerous, far more sinister and ultimately far more intriguing. The storytellers allow the audience to fill in the blanks on our own. And Ledgers portrayal, his mannerisms, the way he flips from somewhat jovial to ready to murder someone back to jovial is a masterclass in acting (the scene I am referring to is the kitchen scene and Gambon says you’re crazy and he replies “no I’m not, no I am not”). He went conversational and giving exposition to dropping the sound in his voice, lowering his stare, almost growling those lines more so than normal, it’s liked a caged animal, then he instantly goes back to everyone else. In that scene, he is alone against maybe thirty people, criminals, armed to the teeth. As soon as he walks in, he owns them all, and they all know he is the most dangerous person in that room. Another little thing I never noticed the first few times I watched it. Towards the end when Joker has his half and he jumps down and lights it on fire. Lau is tied up on top of the pile. I’ll link it, but check out the Movies With Mikey video on the Dark Knight. He goes into far greater detail about how amazing ledger’s Joker is. It’s one of the greatest movie performances of all time.

    https://youtu.be/hFTmCqq-rYc

  6. #6
    Tom Hardy is a fantastic Actor...but he wasn't given a lot to work with when it came to Bane. The voice modulation and the the facial prosthetic took all the benefits of casting Hardy and threw them out the window. And after it's revealed that the whole thing was Talia's plan...all he becomes is the muscle. He's the physical threat to Batman...but he's not the intellectual threat. That's what made Bane a threat in the comics...that's how he broke the Batman's back. Not just because he's bigger and stronger...but because he figured out who Batman was, created a situation that would push him to his limits physically, mentally, and emotionally, and then ambushed him at his weakest point in a place where he finally felt safe. Bruce never had a chance in that situation.

    Ledger however came from a place where everyone was expecting him to fail...and knocked it out of the park. He created the version of the Joker that all others will be measured against.

  7. #7
    Heath Ledger's Joker no contest at all... the acting the character pure greatness and likely to remain the joker of jokers for all time.
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  8. #8
    Joker. Bane was awesome, but Heath's Joker was on another level. That is the Joker for me always.

  9. #9
    Heath Ledger may have been a bad Joker but he was a great villain.

  10. #10
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    In my opinion, a better case could be made for Liam Neeson's Ra's Al Ghul against Ledger's Joker.
    ^^^^

    I think that Heath Ledger's Joker and Tom Hardy's Bane are overrated villains. They come off as your stereotypical, nihilistic "haha I'm smarter than the world I am in control of everything" villain.

    Ra's Al Ghul was effective because he was Bruce Wayne's mentor. He wasn't just some random villain out of nowhere to beat up; Bruce knew him. Ra was like a father figure to Bruce. And then Bruce finding out what Ra really was, and then having to make a choice to forsake Ra in the name of righteousness... that was powerful. And then seeing Ra come back and hurt Bruce where he was vulnerable, and try to tempt him back... again, very powerful.


    After Ra, I'd have to say that the Scarecrow was the next best Dark Knight trilogy villain. He's terrifying; he's just some random guy who, thanks to his mundane knowledge as a doctor, was able to wreck havoc with hallucinogens. Stuff of nightmares. No grand ideals, no master plan.


    (I think Batman Begins is the best movie in the trilogy)

    After Scarecrow, it'd be Joker and Bane.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2020-08-01 at 02:01 AM.

  11. #11
    Pfft...how is this even a question?
    Ledger was phenomenal. Probably too good.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Pfft...how is this even a question?
    Ledger was phenomenal. Probably too good.
    This. So much this.

    Why the hell is this even a question? Ledger's Joker is the best Batman Movie Villain of ANY Live Action Batman Movie, period. It's not even a contest.

  13. #13
    I got the detonator!

    Ledger was awesome, Hardy was great. I felt Bane made me more intimidated and kind of excited when he was around when I watched it in the cinemas, not many can do that. But on an acting level and how they played their part, Ledger was better. The Joker and Bane are just two very different villains. One is cunning, the other is brute force.

    The Dark Knight, my second favorite movie of all time. A superhero movie that was that great, just epic. Loved Dark Knight Rises too, but it was just not at the same level. Batman Begins were my second best of those three. But the villains were great! Though to be honest, in my opinion Christian Bale was the perfect Batman.

    Fine, gonna watch them this weekend!
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  14. #14
    Ledger did a terrific performance in the service of a lesser movie. Aaron Eckhart was at least given an actual story arc to work with rather than a series of increasingly over-the-top vignettes.

    Begins was a more cohesive movie with two excellent villainous performances. Honestly I think I would put Cillian Murphy over Liam Neeson. He was chilling.

    Was Tom Hardy even in Rises? Who can fucking tell? Marion Cotillard was at least able to pick up the slack.

  15. #15
    Elemental Lord Kyphael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    ^^^^

    I think that Heath Ledger's Joker and Tom Hardy's Bane are overrated villains. They come off as your stereotypical, nihilistic "haha I'm smarter than the world I am in control of everything" villain.

    Ra's Al Ghul was effective because he was Bruce Wayne's mentor. He wasn't just some random villain out of nowhere to beat up; Bruce knew him. Ra was like a father figure to Bruce. And then Bruce finding out what Ra really was, and then having to make a choice to forsake Ra in the name of righteousness... that was powerful. And then seeing Ra come back and hurt Bruce where he was vulnerable, and try to tempt him back... again, very powerful.


    After Ra, I'd have to say that the Scarecrow was the next best Dark Knight trilogy villain. He's terrifying; he's just some random guy who, thanks to his mundane knowledge as a doctor, was able to wreck havoc with hallucinogens. Stuff of nightmares. No grand ideals, no master plan.


    (I think Batman Begins is the best movie in the trilogy)

    After Scarecrow, it'd be Joker and Bane.
    Above all else, what Ra's Al Ghul says is almost justifiable until you remember how evil he really is, but it actually makes sense. He's a draconian villain without being chaotic or gratuitously destructive. He's almost selfless in his mission. He's the perfect Batman antithesis in my opinion, not in method or principle, in that regard he mirrors Batman, but in the desired outcome, and his cameo in Rises solidifies his legacy as the trilogy's most important villain. Without Ra's, there would have been no Batman, not as we knew him; nowhere as experienced, and vicariously, there would have been no Joker or Bane.

  16. #16
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Heath Ledger's Joker, also immortalized due to his passing shortly after making this his final role.

    Bane didn't stick with me, but the Joker did. The quotes, the maniacal cackling and laughter, the expressions. Also even after being defeated, he won. Batman broken and Harvey forever corrupted.

    I believe Hardy did what he could with Bane, if you take a look at Peaky Blinders, where he plays Alfie he puts down a more believable criminal, although apples and oranges i know.

  17. #17
    That one scene in the hospital with Harvey...alluring...and damn scary for that fact alone.

  18. #18
    How can this even be a discussion like wtf?

    It's obvious who was the better villlain and I don't even have to tell you who I think it is. You already know who I am talking about, because it's so obvious.

  19. #19
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the game View Post
    So I'm limiting this to Band and the Joker. Who was the better villain. I found both to be extremely well done but having trouble deciding who was better.

    Heath Ledger's joker

    How can you even ask this question? There is nothing to discuss. Heath Ledger's Joker was, hands down, the best villain in the trilogy - and perhaps in live action super hero history.

    (granted - ALL the villains in Nolan's Batman trilogy were great)

  20. #20
    Pencil trick. Why am I laughing, he just killed that guy?

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