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  1. #41
    Epic! Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    Alleria and turalyon literally mindfuck civilians to get their revenge on sylvanas.
    Exactly. That was disturbing as hell. I wouldn't be surprised if anyone who saw it wanted to get their minds erased a bit. Uuuugggh

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It's not revenge. It's the pure and completely wholesome judgement of the Light, which is perfect in all ways. /s

    Well, maybe not Alleria. She's up to her eyeballs and beyond in dark, insanity-fueled extra-dimensional weirdness.
    Well, she's messing with Old God stuff and that can't be good for you
    Last edited by Bwonsamdi the Dead; 2020-08-02 at 08:09 PM.

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  2. #42
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread needs to settle down. Stop flinging personal insults and ad hominem attacks, make your arguments concisely and without rancor going forward.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    NOW. Those people already got their revenge, and thus are not vengeful anymore.

    Once again, MMO-Champion complicating things for no reason.
    Wanting vengeance means you are vengeful. Just because they received it doesn't mean its suddenly not a part of their personality. They may be sated but that doesn't mean if someone else fucks with them they are just going to turn the other cheek.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Wanting vengeance means you are vengeful. Just because they received it doesn't mean its suddenly not a part of their personality. They may be sated but that doesn't mean if someone else fucks with them they are just going to turn the other cheek.
    Yet they are not seeking vengeance at the moment, now, which is what the thread is asking.

    Besides it was obvious OP was referring to vengeance against the Horde. Otherwise the Horde is no exception to vengeance, since every Horde leader would seek vengeance against either the Legion or Void Lords. Even people like Tyrande or Greymane would naturally seek revenge against the Legion, but OP didn't mention that and only focused on their hatred towards the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Exactly. That was disturbing as hell. I wouldn't be surprised if anyone who saw it wanted to get their minds erased a bit. Uuuugggh



    Well, she's messing with Old God stuff and that can't be good for you
    Yet you have no problem with Bwonsamdi casually raising entire armies of the undead?
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-08-02 at 08:20 PM.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  5. #45
    Banned Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yet you have no problem with Bwonsamdi casually raising entire armies of the undead?
    What does Bwom boi have to do with ANYTHING itt? We're discussing Alliance leadership here, not Loas lmao.

  6. #46
    I always have trouble accepting Genn Greymane's quest for vengeance. Everyone always hypes it up as "Sylvanas murdered his son". Like, what? His Son was an idiot and stepped in-front of an arrow meant for Genn. Sylvanas didn't murder his kid.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    I always have trouble accepting Genn Greymane's quest for vengeance. Everyone always hypes it up as "Sylvanas murdered his son". Like, what? His Son was an idiot and stepped in-front of an arrow meant for Genn. Sylvanas didn't murder his kid.
    Did you perhaps miss the fact that Sylvanas turned his country into a toxic wasteland and allied with the cursed worgen who hunted down his people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    What does Bwom boi have to do with ANYTHING itt? We're discussing Alliance leadership here, not Loas lmao.
    It has to do with someone complaining about Alleria torturing one dude (meanwhile the Horde has tortured countless people) while stanning for a character who really isn't any better.

    Besides I could very well just say that this thread has to do with vengeful Alliance leaders, so Alleria shouldn't even be mentioned. Since she only seeks vengeance against Sylvanas, but so does everyone.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-08-02 at 09:43 PM.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Did you perhaps miss the fact that Sylvanas turned his country into a toxic wasteland and allied with the cursed worgen who hunted down his people?



    It has to do with someone complaining about Alleria torturing one dude (meanwhile the Horde has tortured countless people) while stanning for a character who really isn't any better.
    The difference is that Bwon is SUPPOSED to be a questionable death deity by nature and isn't pretending to be anything else. And his fans acknowledge that. While with Alliance characters, a lot of people are convinced they have to be 100% the good guys that always have the moral highground.

  9. #49
    Epic! Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yet you have no problem with Bwonsamdi casually raising entire armies of the undead?
    Uhh...
    Torturing someone until they go crazy =/= raising undead to fight for you

    Bwonsamdi's a questionable character anyway?

    Edit: Looks like someone beat me to it on saying he's questionable lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    What does Bwom boi have to do with ANYTHING itt? We're discussing Alliance leadership here, not Loas lmao.
    Because of my username? Lol
    Last edited by Bwonsamdi the Dead; 2020-08-02 at 10:03 PM.

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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Uhh...
    Torturing someone until they go crazy =/= raising undead to fight for you

    Bwonsamdi's a questionable character anyway?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because of my username? Lol
    It is specifically mentioned that the victim will eventually heal, and anyway why are you people even bringing this up? How does this prove Alleria or Turalyon are vengeful? They want to punish Sylvanas no matter the cost, but so does everyone.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Hey even Anduin gets angry once in a while. With Wrathion. Not with the Horde ofc.
    Best moment of the expansion though. https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...deserved_that/

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Uhh...
    Torturing someone until they go crazy =/= raising undead to fight for you

    Bwonsamdi's a questionable character anyway?
    Yeah I mean pot calling the kettle black a bit if we're going to start calling raising temporary mindless undead minions evil when both factions have playable death knights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No?

    - Anduin: Does not want revenge.
    - Council of Three Hammers: Do not want revenge.
    - Tyrande: Wants revenge, HOWEVER she will not start conflict on Azeroth as she is on a journey to Ardenweald in Shadowlands.
    - Mekkatorque: Does not want revenge.
    - Velen: Does not want revenge.
    - Greymane: Wants revenge, and will most likely get it once Sylvanas dies.
    - Aysa: Does not want revenge.
    - Alleria/Umbric: Do not want revenge.
    - Turalyon: Does not want revenge.
    - Jaina: Does not want revenge.

    So let me ask you again, No?
    I agree with everything you're saying here, but let me add something for clarity.

    Mekkatorque - Participated directly in the Battle of Dazar'Alor. That was in retaliation for things the Horde has done leading to that point. He does not seek revenge now.
    Velen: Despite everything the orcs and Blood Elves have done specifically to his people, he does not hate them. I would, but he doesn't.
    Aysa: On record as being in love with the Horde Pandaren leader Ji Firepaw. Nothing would make her happier than to see the end of the conflict.
    Alleria: Though not happy with being exiled from Silvermoon, she understands their concern. Her presence near the Sunwell caused instability.
    Umbric: Has every right to have issues directly with the blood elves. He follows Alleria.
    Turalyon: Worked with the Horde as well as with the Alliance. I'm not gonna lie, Turalyon has a greater grasp on Alliance/Horde relations and how they could be, than anyone.
    Jaina: Has come to peace with her hatred of the Horde after the attack on Theramore.

    So... I second the motion.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    I agree with everything you're saying here, but let me add something for clarity.

    Mekkatorque - Participated directly in the Battle of Dazar'Alor. That was in retaliation for things the Horde has done leading to that point. He does not seek revenge now.
    Velen: Despite everything the orcs and Blood Elves have done specifically to his people, he does not hate them. I would, but he doesn't.
    Aysa: On record as being in love with the Horde Pandaren leader Ji Firepaw. Nothing would make her happier than to see the end of the conflict.
    Alleria: Though not happy with being exiled from Silvermoon, she understands their concern. Her presence near the Sunwell caused instability.
    Umbric: Has every right to have issues directly with the blood elves. He follows Alleria.
    Turalyon: Worked with the Horde as well as with the Alliance. I'm not gonna lie, Turalyon has a greater grasp on Alliance/Horde relations and how they could be, than anyone.
    Jaina: Has come to peace with her hatred of the Horde after the attack on Theramore.

    So... I second the motion.
    All true, I also forgot to mention that 8.2.5 proves Alleria did not seek vengeance against the Horde, because she wanted to make a truce with Sylvanas to fight N'Zoth. As for Umbric, he doesn't feel vengeful towards Quel'thalas, he just wants his homeland to rejoin the Alliance.

    But really I could have just linked the BfA 8.3 Alliance cutscene. There it is shown that, aside from Greymane and Tyrande, every other Alliance leader welcomed an end to the bloody war.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Heartbreaker23 View Post
    The reason Varian died is because he trusted Sylvanas. He was the opposite of vengeful.
    I really need to point this out: The horde did A LOT of atrocities in the last few years. Canon-wise they are evil monsters now. Varians death on the broken shore was not on them tho.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    I agree with everything you're saying here, but let me add something for clarity.

    Mekkatorque - Participated directly in the Battle of Dazar'Alor. That was in retaliation for things the Horde has done leading to that point. He does not seek revenge now.
    Dazar'Alor was not done in retaliation. It was decided to be a military target because of Zul's and Talanjis actions in Stormwind and the destruction of part of the alliance fleet as well as because the Zandalari were working together with the horde and provided a very formidable fleet.
    The result was of course that the Zandalari joined the Horde immediately afterwards (but lets be honest here, this would have happened either way) and that the Zandalari swore revenge because the Alliance killed their king. The bullshit here was however, that the Alliance retreated and in the end all they did was to kill the king for basically ZERO gain. They had two options: Either finish the Zandalari off (or at least occupy the city or at the VERY LEAST destroy important infrastructure like the harbor) or just destroy the fleet (for that no attack would have been necessary).
    The fact that he joined the attack tho was totally logical and in no way for vengeance.

    Aysa: On record as being in love with the Horde Pandaren leader Ji Firepaw. Nothing would make her happier than to see the end of the conflict.
    This is still so trange btw. Canonically the horde Pandaren under Ji Firepaws burned Teldrassil and slaughtered people en mass and only joined the "rebels" when it seemed like Sylvanas would attack Thunder Bluff. I need to empathize this, first the Horde destroyed the Vale of Eternal Blossoms and killed many, many Pandaren, then the Pandaren joined the horde and then they started a genocide themselves.
    I mean wtf is going on here.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Heartbreaker23 View Post
    No. It was Sylvanas betrayal.
    Did you watch the cutscenes on both sides? No, of course you didn't..
    Scheduled weekly maintenance caught me by surprise.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sithalos View Post
    Did you watch the cutscenes on both sides? No, of course you didn't..
    You can go even beyond and check the rogue storyline where you learn that the SI:7 was infiltrated by dreadlords giving them a wrong report which lead to the assault in the first place.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Sithalos View Post
    Did you watch the cutscenes on both sides? No, of course you didn't..
    I've watched every single cutscene there ever was. And Sylvanas still betrayed the Alliance when she left them to fight for themselves. The least she could've done is send a Val'kyr down there to offer them some help or at least inform them of why they are leaving all of a sudden. The Alliance and the Horde stomed the Broken Shore together. They arrived there together. They coordinated their forces. It was a joint effort. And at the height of the battle, Sylvanas withdrew her forces without saying a word and without offering any help. That is betrayal. It doesn't matter if she had a good reason to do it. It doesn't matter if it was the right thing to do for the Horde. At the Broken Shore, the Alliance and the Horde were allies, no matter how loosely. And Sylvanas showed that the Alliance can't even trust the Horde enough to fight a common enemy, without the Horde just turning around and running away.

    If there's a guy that threatens both of us and we agree to attack him together, but all of a sudden it looks like he's gonna demolish both of us, it's ok to run away, but we have to do it together. We still have to watch each other's back. If one guy just leaves the other guy there, to save his own hide, no matter how understandable, no matter how smart it is, it is the action of a coward and a traitor.

    All the Horde had to do was go "hey guys, we're leaving, you should do the same". That is the bare minimum of effort required to show that this wasn't something the Horde planned to lead the Alliance into a trap. Everything about the way it happened is a clear betrayal. And considering we now know what Sylvanas really wanted all along, there should be no doubt that when these things happened, she was thinking "hey if this upsets the Alliance and further escalates things, all the better, that's what I want anyway".

    Or haven't you watched the recent cutscenes involving Sylvanas?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I really need to point this out: The horde did A LOT of atrocities in the last few years. Canon-wise they are evil monsters now. Varians death on the broken shore was not on them tho.
    I didn't say that it was an atrocity committed by evil monsters. I said that Varian died because he trusted Sylvanas. And that trust was misplaced. This is a common theme among Alliance kings. His father died the moment he started to trust a half-orc and immediately payed for that with his life.

    The Alliance fought the Legion forces at the Broken Shore trusting that the Horde had their back, and had they knows from the beginning that the Horde would abandon them, they likely would have aborted the mission right then and there. Which means Varian would still be alive.
    Last edited by Heartbreaker23; 2020-08-03 at 11:29 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Heartbreaker23 View Post
    I've watched every single cutscene there ever was. And Sylvanas still betrayed the Alliance when she left them to fight for themselves. The least she could've done is send a Val'kyr down there to offer them some help or at least inform them of why they are leaving all of a sudden. The Alliance and the Horde stomed the Broken Shore together. They arrived there together. They coordinated their forces. It was a joint effort. And at the height of the battle, Sylvanas withdrew her forces without saying a word and without offering any help. That is betrayal. It doesn't matter if she had a good reason to do it. It doesn't matter if it was the right thing to do for the Horde. At the Broken Shore, the Alliance and the Horde were allies, no matter how loosely. And Sylvanas showed that the Alliance can't even trust the Horde enough to fight a common enemy, without the Horde just turning around and running away.

    If there's a guy that threatens both of us and we agree to attack him together, but all of a sudden it looks like he's gonna demolish both of us, it's ok to run away, but we have to do it together. We still have to watch each other's back. If one guy just leaves the other guy there, to save his own hide, no matter how understandable, no matter how smart it is, it is the action of a coward and a traitor.

    All the Horde had to do was go "hey guys, we're leaving, you should do the same". That is the bare minimum of effort required to show that this wasn't something the Horde planned to lead the Alliance into a trap. Everything about the way it happened is a clear betrayal. And considering we now know what Sylvanas really wanted all along, there should be no doubt that when these things happened, she was thinking "hey if this upsets the Alliance and further escalates things, all the better, that's what I want anyway".

    Or haven't you watched the recent cutscenes involving Sylvanas?
    We have been through this during 7.0 patch... The lack of communication is not betrayal, it isn't Horde's responsibility to how the Alliance acted when the Horde retreated. Not that was going to change anything, since Alliance's position was compromised, with or without warning.

    Check the Rogue campaign.
    Last edited by Timester; 2020-08-03 at 12:37 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We "underestimated" the Legion, because of the Dreadlords infiltrating SI:7. Varian died, because Sylvanas ordered the retreat, because of Vol'jin's death, which we now know happened, because Mueh'zala and the Jailer interfered, which Sylvanas very well knew. The Jailer wanted both Varian and Vol'jin dead, because that assured Sylvanas would come out on top, they both assumed that Anduin would be a pushover and that no one would oppose Sylvanas.
    What on earth are you talking about? Vol'jin's death didn't happen because Mueh'zala and Jailer interfered. Their interference caused Vol'jin to pick Sylvanas, that's all. Even then, it was Vol'jin and not Sylvanas that ordered the retreat in the first place. For god's sake, Blizzard's commentary on how Sylvanas' behavior during the Broken Shore was to achieve her Jailer-related goals was about her saving Varian earlier on.

    On top of that, no, Varian did not die because "Sylvanas" ordered the retreat. There is no causal link between the Horde's retreat and the events that led to Varian's death. Not only did the withdrawal of the Horde not change the immediate circumstances of the Alliance in any way (right after the Horde left the Alliance gunship arrived and covered the anti-air responsibilities the Horde provided towards the Alliance front) but Varian died because Gul'dan dropped a Fel Reaver onto the battlefield. Which had absolutely squat to do with Sylvanas, Jailer, Shadowlands, the Horde or anything else. The very existence of that Fel Reaver wasn't even a factor in the battle at the Broken Shore at the time of Horde retreating.

    If anything the Horde's retreat "ordered by Sylvanas" saved the Alliance because their retreat caused Varian to decide that Alliance should retreat as well. Because he thought that without the Horde they would falter in the long term. So he ordered his people to board the gunship. Which means that were it not for Gul'dan summoning the Fel Reaver at the last moment, even Varian would have survived.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Since the events in Icecrown Sylvannas has been helping to provoke and prolong war and conflict on Azeroth to feed souls to the Jailer. We've known that since the Azshara patch.
    As evidenced by her almost completely withdrawing from Garrosh's war after 4.0 when she secured her borders and being against his plans like the invasion of Gilneas or the attack on Theramore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    She quit the field early to achieve her goal. If the portal was closed or sealed early then there was a very good chance of peace breaking out. Also since her goal is death itself to feed souls to the jailer why should she care if the Legion comes?
    Except there was no chance to close the portal. We needed the Pillars of Creation to close it and we had whole zero of them during the attack. Which Khadgar discovered and told us about whooping 5 seconds after the attack failed. On top of that Sargeras was chilling right behind the portal and was personally smiting down anyone who came too close. Broken Shore was a Legion trap. That was its whole purpose. And we fell into that trap because Alliance intelligence got infiltrated by the Legion. There was no chance to win there. Staying at the Broken Shore would have only decimated the Alliance and the Horde, allowing the Legion to conquer Azeroth and finally win the Burning Crusade.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Like when Garrosh kills the commander in the mountains for blowing up the druidic enclave we know from Theramore and the events of MoP that it wasn't because the commander had killed a bunch of innocents, it was because the dude had revealed that the Horde had perfected the mana-bomb technology the Blood Elves from Outland had been working on.
    Except the bomb used in Stonetalon was not a mana bomb. And there is nothing in the events of MoP that shows us that Garrosh killed the guy for revealing a non-existent mana bomb. He DID kill him for slaughtering innocents and bringing dishonor to the Horde. The reason why it clashes with his MoP portrayal is because the Stonetalon questline was a mistake caused by Afrasiabi and Kossak not working together to form a cohesive narration, with neither knowing what the other was doing. Afrasiabi flat out admitted he made that mistake in an interview about the release of WoD.


    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    The latest wow book wasn't written by Golden, but nice try.
    The post you quoted doesn't say anything about the lastest WoW book being written by Golden...


    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    There isnt really a point to presenting further arguments to you. The one was enough for you to give a response showing you dont give a shit about facts.

    But to appease your trolling...

    Both sides fighting together (pretty stupid in hindsight knowing full well the alliance cant handle teamwork). The underestimated legion brings way more forces than expected. Sylvanas "betrays" varian (rofl) and sounds the horn for retreat, ya know, so both factions dont get killed. Greymane chooses to not tell varian retreat was called. Varian dies because Greymane chose to not tell him about the retreat call. Forum trolls call it betrayal on sylvanas's part.

    (Source: canon lore, not your feelings)

    Oof.
    Varian did hear the horn and realized that the Horde is retreating (though not why they did).
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2020-08-03 at 01:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  20. #60
    2 of the named characters got over it.
    The other 2 lost something on a far larger scale (like 90% of their species)... it's not far-fetched that they are mad.

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