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  1. #1

    Talking Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

    Gearscore was terrible for the community for multiple reasons back in Wrath. Specifically, it made a divide in the player base that was unnecessary and promoted elitism.

    We are witnessing Gearscore 2.0 with Raider.IO. While yes, it is helpful to have so you choose people who have the relative experience to what you key you are looking to push, it also diminishes the value of the player experience as a whole. We tend to choose players who have higher IO's than others, we choose players who are playing "meta" specs over others who may have a higher IO, but they are playing a Shadow priest. So, they are not chosen for the DPS spot.

    We as a community have failed one another once again. I hope that Blizzard will step in at some point and remove Raider IO as a whole just as they did with Gearscore. Or, Blizzard will incorporate their own version of this addon into the game itself.

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire Daieon's Avatar
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    This is kind of a moot point since you can see the highest key someone has done on their armory as well as raid progression. This is what people did before raider.io it was just more legwork. With things like the race to world first and the MDI as well as many of those who participate in each being streamers, the people who use raider.io will just use the info from armory/wowprog/streams to cross reference in some way to ensure they don't get people who are inexperienced.

    I agree it's a shitty mindset but that's just how people are tbh. The gaming community isn't really about getting better now, it's about BEING better and this really shows in WoW.

  3. #3
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    I don't like Raider.IO - So I just don't use it.

    Instead I gather my friends in the game and clear whatever M+ I want every week.

    Long story short, you can still do everything you want in the game even with raider.IO available. Just make some friends.

    I did check my score a while back though, it wasn't half bad...
    Fundamental civil rights are only "political" if you're trying to take them away from people.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    We as a community have failed one another once again.
    We as a community accepted over a decade ago that if you wanted to play the way you want, the content you want, the class you want, the spec you want - the only real avenue is playing with friends or guildies or both. I mean you admit yourself that this is FAR from a new phenomenon - First, it was "come to AH for inspection". Then we have had GS, ilvl, achievements - the list goes on. This isnt new, its just the newest tool to allow us to do something we have always done - pick and choose the most qualified members for our groups.

  5. #5
    As a premier, S-tier Shadow Priest with a massive 2.2k IO score, I can tell you that everything you just wrote is 100% incorrect.

    Removing Raider.IO wouldn't even solve the issue since the only thing the website does is provide a numerical figure for instances completed. All of the information from R.IO is cached from the Armory so the same exact problem you're describing would exist, people would just be using the Armory to scout players instead of R.IO.

    What you actually want is to reprogram the playerbase's mentality for "shitty off-meta" specs. And I'd wager Blizzard wants to do that, too, which is why they've got such a hard-on for Covenants and Soulbinds in SL. Whether it'll actually have an impact is anybody's guess but ranting about a website that simply utilizes APIs that Blizzard added to the Armory for the express intention of websites like R.IO to exist isn't really going to do much of anything.

  6. #6
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    My community has never been stronger and its due to one thing: raider.io. Removing raider.io would destroy my community and the game.
    Last edited by callipygoustp; 2020-08-04 at 01:01 AM.

  7. #7
    Even if they remove/block the rio people would just find something else that would be used as the next gearscore.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    As a premier, S-tier Shadow Priest with a massive 2.2k IO score, I can tell you that everything you just wrote is 100% incorrect.

    Removing Raider.IO wouldn't even solve the issue since the only thing the website does is provide a numerical figure for instances completed. All of the information from R.IO is cached from the Armory so the same exact problem you're describing would exist, people would just be using the Armory to scout players instead of R.IO.

    What you actually want is to reprogram the playerbase's mentality for "shitty off-meta" specs. And I'd wager Blizzard wants to do that, too, which is why they've got such a hard-on for Covenants and Soulbinds in SL. Whether it'll actually have an impact is anybody's guess but ranting about a website that simply utilizes APIs that Blizzard added to the Armory for the express intention of websites like R.IO to exist isn't really going to do much of anything.
    I'd argue elitism isn't a problem, but a symptom of blizzard's fundamental inability to do basic math and balance the St, AoE, and team utility kit of the classes so that the meta wouldn't need to correct the imbalance by tiering class/specs.

  9. #9
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    The problem is not raider.io (or gear score or ilvl or achievement checking or gear inspection or parses), the problem is the community misusing, overusing, and/or exploiting these resources. As long as the actual players causing this negative behaviour exists, the problem itself will also always exist in some capacity or another, just as it has since day one. If you get rid of raider.io, they will just use something else for the same end.
    Last edited by Tziva; 2020-08-04 at 12:26 AM. Reason: oh boy english is hard
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  10. #10
    I guess the TLDR of this mess is, don't pug unless you're willing to deal with rampant elitism and toxicity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    I'd argue elitism isn't a problem, but a symptom of blizzard's fundamental inability to do basic math and balance the St, AoE, and team utility kit of the classes so that the meta wouldn't need to correct the imbalance by tiering class/specs.
    While tuning could certainly be better, do you really think the meta slave tryhards would act any different over a 3% difference in damage, as opposed to our current 20%+ differences? Some might, but elitism and exclusion would still be rampant.

    It's not realistic to expect Bliz to balance all the specs within 1% of eachother with all the moving parts this game has.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    The problem is not raider.io (or gear score or ilvl or achievement checking or gear inspection or parses), the problem is the community misusing, overusing, and/or exploiting these resources. As long as the actual players causing this negative behaviour exists, it will always exist in some capacity or another, just as it has since the day one. If you get rid of raider.io, they will just use something else for the same end.
    This guy gets it. Elitism isn't going away. It's over.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    I'd argue elitism isn't a problem, but a symptom of blizzard's fundamental inability to do basic math and balance the St, AoE, and team utility kit of the classes so that the meta wouldn't need to correct the imbalance by tiering class/specs.
    Yeah, right. As if these people would be less slave to the meta if the difference was 3 or 5% instead of 10 or 20%.

    If people want to play as they will, guilds and friend lists are there for that. The community will always, always find a way to filter out people and will always have meta preferences no matter what. Break Raider.IO and they'll go for top dungeon clears, achieves, anything.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Yeah, right. As if these people would be less slave to the meta if the difference was 3 or 5% instead of 10 or 20%.

    If people want to play as they will, guilds and friend lists are there for that. The community will always, always find a way to filter out people and will always have meta preferences no matter what. Break Raider.IO and they'll go for top dungeon clears, achieves, anything.
    even if there wasnt meta's that does not stop the majority of the playerbase from being just god awful at the game. raider.io is a blessing

  13. #13
    Unpopular opinion: Raider.io is absolutely fine.

    If someone has a 5/10/15/20+ key & they're throwing out into the groupfinder then there's nothing wrong with them wanting to take the players that they perceive give them the best chance of success in whatever key it is they're listing. Yes I know there are some absolute blasters out there with low M+ score for whatever reason, and that high M+ score doesn't guarantee a good player, but on average, the 475 geared Warrior with 3k score is probably going to be better than tha 465 DK with just a single 15 timed.

    It's also important to note that neither of the above players are guaranteed by any addon/other ingame system to be players you'd actually want to play with, but seeing as how that isn't something you can predict in pug content, there's no reason to take the seemingly weaker player.

    And honestly, people need to stop with the whole "feeling they deserve a spot in a random group" kinda thing. If you see a group clearing heroic with an item level requirement of 12/12+ & 475 ilvl, it's because everyone in that group has paid their dues & progressed through the content, and now find themselves at a point where it's just a casual farm they want to do with similarly geared & experienced people. If you want to be invited to such groups, progress your way up the ladder like everyone else - there quickly comes a point where you become one of the 1-4 pugs that someone will prioritize taking into their group because of your experience.

    Really though, if you're pugging M+ - just stop. Find people to play with & improve by playing with them. It's countless times more rewarding to make friends & progress together than it is to jump as a nameless face group to group. Only thing I ever pug for nowadays is M+ low keys for mounts (or if I'm feeling bored & just fancy helping some people out).

  14. #14
    This has been suggested a bunch of times, and has been shot down every time.

    But I'm guessing the OP is more of the 'make a thread then vanish type' so it doesn't really feel like there's any point explaining it all again.

  15. #15
    I understand the OPs frustration. I used to despise raider.io, mostly because it debuted late Legion, where I only ran Arcway for the tail end of the expansion and now suddenly I'm deemed inept to tank anything.

    However now I love it. More times then not yes the score reflects an individuals capacity for a given key level. Comparing it to Gearscore just isn't fair. Gearscore is just ilvl, and the problem with both is that the quality of your gear isn't reflective of your skill.

    Raider.io is essential Arena Rating for Mythic+ and Blizz should consider grandfathering it in. I'm always compelled in what numbers people with high scores will put up. Something about grinding your io score is so addicting and i can't put my thumb on it.

    I think the best thing I can think of is that it brings back the old prestige of having a full raid set back when raid gear was harder to get. When I randomly mouse over someone and see that their score is 4K or even 5K. The fact that your percentile dictates your color, from green, blue, purple, orange and so on.

    My original plan was just to get my score to about 2.2k, but I constantly find myself eeking to go higher. Raider.io in many ways is your real ilvl since people appreciate it more than your actual gear.

    You can easily buy a full set of Mythic raid gear with Gold or Cash. I'm not sure how far a 4 man can carry one's raider.io. It also helps people from servers like Ragnaros and the xenophobic stain they normally have of being medoicre players.

  16. #16
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Unpopular opinion: Raider.io is absolutely fine.
    I don't think that is an unpopular opinion; backlash against the site is largely because of how ubiquitious it is in the playerbase.

    If someone has a 5/10/15/20+ key & they're throwing out into the groupfinder then there's nothing wrong with them wanting to take the players that they perceive give them the best chance of success in whatever key it is they're listing. Yes I know there are some absolute blasters out there with low M+ score for whatever reason, and that high M+ score doesn't guarantee a good player, but on average, the 475 geared Warrior with 3k score is probably going to be better than tha 465 DK with just a single 15 timed.

    It's also important to note that neither of the above players are guaranteed by any addon/other ingame system to be players you'd actually want to play with, but seeing as how that isn't something you can predict in pug content, there's no reason to take the seemingly weaker player.
    I think this slightly misunderstands the objections to the system. There's probably very few people out there who think they are entitled to a spot in any group regardless of their qualifications, or that fault people for trying to build successful groups.

    The objections are usually one of two things: Either they feel that there aren't enough/any "starter" opportunities out there for people to build experience, or they are burned by the groups with unreasonably high requirements (I saw one the other day asking 480 ilvl and "at least" 2k score for a 10+). Although I think the frequency and severity of these things is greatly exaggerated, these objections do have some merit and are based in reality, unlike some kind of hypothetical scenario where people are imaging a guy who has never done m+ being mad that he can't get invited to a +15 with a score of zero and then blaming raider.io itself
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark One View Post
    I don't like Raider.IO - So I just don't use it.
    Cool - so I can stop everyone judging me based on Raider.IO score (aka how much gold I have) just by not using it.

    Something new I've learned today - that I can influence every other player just by not using something myself.

    But in all seriousness - I get turned down for M+ because of my class/spec WAY before I get turned down because of my Raider.IO score - maybe we should hide class/spec from prospective groups as well ?

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  18. #18
    you know what? I mained and solely played a warrior since vanilla. nothing else.
    This year however, I finally made 4 alts to 120 thanks to alterac valley event.

    Then recently for the last 2-3 months I have had chances/time to play them.
    But holy fucking hell those low level keys.

    Such incompetence...such idiocy...
    I cannot get over 1500 any faster. The shit show of low keys.

    I absofuckinglutely don't need these people in my +15 and above keys.

    how are you going to separate good from the bad? I only have an hour or two in a day to play. I don't wnat to waste those precious hours on some pleb.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I don't think that is an unpopular opinion; backlash against the site is largely because of how ubiquitious it is in the playerbase.


    I think this slightly misunderstands the objections to the system. There's probably very few people out there who think they are entitled to a spot in any group regardless of their qualifications, or that fault people for trying to build successful groups.

    The objections are usually one of two things: Either they feel that there aren't enough/any "starter" opportunities out there for people to build experience, or they are burned by the groups with unreasonably high requirements (I saw one the other day asking 480 ilvl and "at least" 2k score for a 10+). Although I think the frequency and severity of these things is greatly exaggerated, these objections do have some merit and are based in reality, unlike some kind of hypothetical scenario where people are imaging a guy who has never done m+ being mad that he can't get invited to a +15 with a score of zero and then blaming raider.io itself
    To all those people I'd again just suggest the same thing: Join a guild/community, find some friendly people to play with, and the progression will just come naturally in time while you're having fun. Even on my dead little backwater realm there's community/social guilds recruiting & many of those do M+, & even if you're opening yourself up to the possibility of a bad experience, it can't be any worse than being stuck in a dead-end PUG loop that you seemingly can't escape from.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    To all those people I'd again just suggest the same thing: Join a guild/community, find some friendly people to play with
    Yeah - that still only gets me 2 or 3 runs at most a week - the common thread is rationing the healers and tanks across all the dps that want runs. So getting my mage through a good number of M+ runs just isn't possible.

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