Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[T-34]

Fixed that for you.

Nobody looks at ilvl when making a group. Experience counts.
Gear rains down on people in BFA, experience doesn't

[crakerjack]

just because you interrupted a lot of casts doesn't mean you interrupted the casts that mattered. Just because you did a lot of dps, doesn't mean you performed well. Maybe the tank just pulled extraordinarily well and you had a lot of aoe situations. Detailed data can be very misleading and it can also lead to toxic situations where people try to game the system, like with interrupts where someone else interrupts faster than you, so your interrupt didn't count and your personal score drops. That sucks. What if you made an interrupt rotation, where you are the 2nd one to interrupt but you interrupted first immediately. Your score is higher but you failed.

WoW is a complex game. Personal performance cannot be perfectly caught on data. It works quite well with raid bosses because those are very scripted. But dungeons have a lot of variables. It makes no sense to look at "skill" for dungeons. Skilled players in higher keys will keep in touch by socializing, not by checking each other on warcraftlogs. Good players get on friendlists.

You're right, personal performance will never be caught perfectly. The thing is, raider io doesn't use ANY personal performance data. There will never be a perfect system as you put it, so does that mean we shouldn't try to make one? Raider io has flaws and claiming there's no reason to make it better because it'll never be perfect is just finding a reason to be content with it. There's room for improvement and anyone who objects is just biased.

[Alroxas]

All +15s in time (with 0 seconds to spare ever) gives you 1932 score.
All +14s in time gives you 1752 score.
All +13s in time gives you 1596 score.
All +12s in time gives you 1452 score.

To be fair, that's with 12 dungeons. Prior to Mechagon going M+, the scores were a bit lower about ~1600 for +15s in 10 dungeons.

[crakerjack]

It would actually be a fun idea. As a healer, I would constantly ninja pull packs just so I can pad my HPS (no software can know whether I ninja pulled, or whether it's my assigned responsibility in the group). I bet I can get most +15 pug keys timed with 100k+ HPS overall this way.

Well that's just toxic behavior. It would be an entirely different scenario if you were a dps and your tank/healer were find on surviving. On my ret alt, I'll do this because all my damage comes from 3/3 lights decree and crusader. When my wings are popped, I want the tank to chain pulls, so often I'll throw a judgement at the next mob assuming there is necrotic or some other affix that would hinder the group by chain pulling.

[Wuusah]

You're right, personal performance will never be caught perfectly. The thing is, raider io doesn't use ANY personal performance data. There will never be a perfect system as you put it, so does that mean we shouldn't try to make one? Raider io has flaws and claiming there's no reason to make it better because it'll never be perfect is just finding a reason to be content with it. There's room for improvement and anyone who objects is just biased.

And it's GOOD that rio doesn't use personal performance data. Because people would game the system to fluff their number up. Dungeons are just too different depending on group composition, amount of trash you fight at once, which week it is. Including personal performance would not make it better. It would make it worse.

And yes, we shouldn't make a perfect system because no system is as good as putting good players on your friendlist and then asking them to do another key together. This is the perfect system.

[crakerjack]

And it's GOOD that rio doesn't use personal performance data. Because people would game the system to fluff their number up. Dungeons are just too different depending on group composition, amount of trash you fight at once, which week it is. Including personal performance would not make it better. It would make it worse.

And yes, we shouldn't make a perfect system because no system is as good as putting good players on your friendlist and then asking them to do another key together. This is the perfect system.

Then what's the point of io if it should be vague and we just play with people on our friends list? What value does it have if we're not even using it to form groups, but instead just playing with friends? The whole point of io is to give some idea of experience a player has. If you have a clique of buds and enjoy what you're doing, then io has little importance outside of chasing a higher score. The system is in place in order for people to tell how competent someone is, so more data would only help it, not make it worse. IO already keeps track of what dungeons you've completed with what affixes, so a knowledgeable player would understand that overall damage on bursting weeks would be lower than non-bursting weeks.

I really don't see how you think more data would hurt raider io.

[Wuusah]

Then what's the point of io if it should be vague and we just play with people on our friends list? What value does it have if we're not even using it to form groups, but instead just playing with friends? The whole point of io is to give some idea of experience a player has. If you have a clique of buds and enjoy what you're doing, then io has little importance outside of chasing a higher score. The system is in place in order for people to tell how competent someone is, so more data would only help it, not make it worse. IO already keeps track of what dungeons you've completed with what affixes, so a knowledgeable player would understand that overall damage on bursting weeks would be lower than non-bursting weeks.

I really don't see how you think more data would hurt raider io.

the point is to weed out inexperienced players, get a pool of potentially good players, so that you can put them on your friends list afterwards if they actually were good in the run. It's really not that difficult to understand. You don't start with friends. You make friends.

[crakerjack]

the point is to weed out inexperienced players, get a pool of potentially good players, so that you can put them on your friends list afterwards if they actually were good in the run. It's really not that difficult to understand. You don't start with friends. You make friends.

So the point of raider io is to make friends?

[Zeusy]

That's the issue, that you can have someone with a qualified score apply to your key and you are jaded based on prior experiences. The system is flawed because the score doesn't accurately depict how good the player is. Like you just said, you won't invite people with a 1500-1700 score to a simple 12-13+ key because they've been bad. Guess what? a 1500-1700 io score is what you get when you've completed every dungeon with a +15 key. The system has made you so jaded that you will only accept overqualified people. You have no proof or evidence to support that the 1500-1700 io player is good/bad, but you can infer that if someone has a much higher score, they must be better. That means people are gaming the system by buying carries and inflating the io score.

That sounds like a flawed system that could drastically be improved.

Sure a flawed system but to the date it has made my runs go 100x better than when I took people who had good Ilvl or linked me another achievement.

It is a great system for people on limited time who want to do a run in a "farm" manner and not progression. I've had many people say that someone who is 480 should be invited NP because they have ilvl to do so. Being overqualified or showing proof you can do something will always win out over a system that fails to show someone is capable.

I still can't quite see the problem, and thats coming from someone who started out not even wanting to DL raiderIO. More score equals less fails, equals higher IO, and pugging higher. This happened forever in raids, will continue to happen forever. (example: people wanting AOTC for normal nzoth etc, nothing to do with IO).

Honestly the system works the same as school degrees. Does a bacehlor or master's say 100% someone will be better than someone without? No.. But it will give a much safer basis to pick people from. Its safer and creates less problems in the long run.

[crakerjack]

Sure a flawed system but to the date it has made my runs go 100x better than when I took people who had good Ilvl or linked me another achievement.

It is a great system for people on limited time who want to do a run in a "farm" manner and not progression. I've had many people say that someone who is 480 should be invited NP because they have ilvl to do so. Being overqualified or showing proof you can do something will always win out over a system that fails to do so.

I still fail to see a problem with a system that lowers failed runs and increases value in timing higher keys. People who don't want to deal with it can group up with friends or run their own key.

Yea, using ilvl as a second metric is vague too, just like having a decent io score. Both can be fabricated by coughing up enough gold for carries, which is why I'm suggesting raider io should adopt other metrics to gauge individual performance. Imagine if they did and you pulled up someones io and it showed they had a score of 1700. You look closer and you see that they were only doing 30k DPS overall instead of 70k+ like others do at 480 ilvl. You can then interpret that the person w/ a 1700 score is getting carried either by guildies/friends or paying for carries. That way we don't head down the route of requesting overqualified scores for our keystones. It creates a barrier of entry in order to do 15's, not based on skill, but based on how much you grind io.

That way you could pull someone up, see they have a mediocre score, but the last 5 dungeons they did, they performed well on an individual level. It would be easier to root out the people who pay for carries and those who bottom parse in each group they join.

[Zeusy]

Yea, using ilvl as a second metric is vague too, just like having a decent io score. Both can be fabricated by coughing up enough gold for carries, which is why I'm suggesting raider io should adopt other metrics to gauge individual performance. Imagine if they did and you pulled up someones io and it showed they had a score of 1700. You look closer and you see that they were only doing 30k DPS overall instead of 70k+ like others do at 480 ilvl. You can then interpret that the person w/ a 1700 score is getting carried either by guildies/friends or paying for carries. That way we don't head down the route of requesting overqualified scores for our keystones. It creates a barrier of entry in order to do 15's, not based on skill, but based on how much you grind io.

That way you could pull someone up, see they have a mediocre score, but the last 5 dungeons they did, they performed well on an individual level. It would be easier to root out the people who pay for carries and those who bottom parse in each group they join.

I see this happening sooner or later as logs and addons become even better. The slope is going to start getting icky though when people start to require top parsing people + IO to get into stuff. Vague might be an okay merit for most pug situations.

Seeing things like hmm dude you only do 95k while top people do 110k, hit the road etc possibly could be the norm. Parses are always cheesed so if we can figure out a way from that not happening then it might be good.

[Wuusah]

So the point of raider io is to make friends?

The point of rio is to find experienced players. But you need to socialize with people if you want to do really difficult content.
Socializing should be your endgoal anyway. It’s an MMO after all. Playing only with random people is a miserable experience compared to playing with friends.

[willtron]

this really just shows how ignorant you are. Nobody cares about your gear in pugs. It's never the first thing people ask about. What people want to know is your experience. What's your rio score? What's your raid progress? What's your current pvp rating? That's what people care about.

You're deluded.
Infracted

[Very rare pepe]

For me personally, I don't have this issue. I'm merely showcasing an example.




It's not a binary choice though. Wow caters to an amazingly diverse community from young to old players at different stages of life. Sure maybe a 20 yr college student can spend 80hrs/week in wow but a 40s parent of two might only have a few hours here and there. And it's not impossible for even those with limited time to tackle challenging content. Like the mythic raid teams that do once a week runs and still manage to clear the entire mythic raid before the release of the following tier. Sure they won't be World First or even Realm First, but they can get it done. Are you saying that they shouldn't be able to do that?

Those people who clear mythic whilst raid logging have a group though that they play with. And most likely do their +15 every week with right now. IO doesnt affect them....

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Example: I have an M+8 key and 300 raider.io score: OM:J+5 3-chest, OM:W+7 1-chest, KR+8 1-chest and SoB+10 failed timer.

I start an LFD group as a DPS with an item level requirement of 450. I am item level 455. Would either of you, denizens of raider.io, join this group with a character of item level 450? If not, my point stands. If so, explain why you'd ignore the raider.io addon in this case (as clearing all M+8 dungeons would give a score of around 960).

For an 8 key I wouldnt care about your IO personally. It's an 8. But it's red flags when you see a 300 IO score this late into a season for me, probably will lead to problems in the dungeon but it is only an 8 so it wouldn't bother me. Above 10 though, nah I wouldn't go anywhere near 300 IO score unless you are a friend.
Raider IO is great though for the exact reason you pointed out, it is very handy to see the experience of people making groups too.

[Alroxas]

Those people who clear mythic whilst raid logging have a group though that they play with. And most likely do their +15 every week with right now. IO doesnt affect them....

That's not the point. The point I was making that competitive content such as Mythic Raid and high M+ are not exclusive content to the players who can invest in a lot of time to do them.

A group of 40s with limited time could also achieve the same, just not as quickly as World First, Realm First, or MDI levels of speed. BUT that's predicated on having a group of like minded people.


Look if you have a group of people you play with, then R.io is mostly irrelevant, you don't need it. But for the solo-ish player who doesn't have a strong guild, or a strong community or a group of friends that share the interest of running high M+ keys, then you're more dependent on r.io to get you into groups.

Furthermore, the time investment is much higher the later you start in a season especially if you don't have a previous season's score to help "boost" your profile up.

This isn't the fault of r.io but rather the community's use of r.io and how we've come to use r.io as a "quick and dirty" metric of how experienced a player is even though the r.io score is based not solely on an individual's ability but rather that individual's ability within a group of players.

Shit, if that ain't clear enough, how about this: There are plenty of sites selling boosts for RLM or even for gold. Which means that it's entirely possible (not probable) for a player to get a 2k score by spending tons of moneys for carries and yet they will have ZERO fucking experience in any dungeon because they were carried through all 12 dungeons. Hell they might not even been playing because some of those sites who do carries are "piloted" carries (they assume control of your character). Yeah it's completely against ToS (especially for the RLM paid ones) but it could happen and does happen in a more limited capacity.

Where is r.io or even Blizzard's protection against that?

[Very rare pepe]

It's still better than not having information.

Aaaand close thread in all honesty. Raider IO isn't great, I dislike using it myself but I have had so many keys ruined, so many bad dungeons that it became necessary for a smoother experience. Yeah it isn't perfect but it saves me looking up your armory

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Look if you have a group of people you play with, then R.io is mostly irrelevant, you don't need it. But for the solo-ish player who doesn't have a strong guild, or a strong community or a group of friends that share the interest of running high M+ keys, then you're more dependent on r.io to get you into groups.

Right, I don't see an issue with this at all? It's an MMORPG, if you have friends/guild/community it is easier to do end game content. If you don't you have to rely on other metrics, Raider IO is that current metric, it used to be your armory, it used to be your achievements, it used to be Gearscore. Raider IO is the best version so far of these metrics because it is very quick and simple.
It doesn't take long, especially when you consider how long a season goes on for, for a player of all types to build up an IO score. If you can't afford to give what? 20 hours? 30 hours? 40 hours? over a whole season to your apparent interest in pushing high keys, then perhaps you aren't as interested in it as you thought?

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Shit, if that ain't clear enough, how about this: There are plenty of sites selling boosts for RLM or even for gold. Which means that it's entirely possible (not probable) for a player to get a 2k score by spending tons of moneys for carries and yet they will have ZERO fucking experience in any dungeon because they were carried through all 12 dungeons. Hell they might not even been playing because some of those sites who do carries are "piloted" carries (they assume control of your character). Yeah it's completely against ToS (especially for the RLM paid ones) but it could happen and does happen in a more limited capacity.

That's a completely non point and one I see thrown around very often on this thread. So a boosted guy can get access into some runs, where he gets found out or he doesn't(maybe he's good but chose to get boosted), if he gets found out, he gets put on ignore and not invited again to that group, if he's good, who cares.

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Furthermore, the time investment is much higher the later you start in a season especially if you don't have a previous season's score to help "boost" your profile up.

And so it should be. You have tons of catching up to do with the new affixes etc and that takes a few runs or you looking up information. Both of them things will take more time the longer you go away from the game.

[Firebert]

For an 8 key I wouldnt care about your IO personally. It's an 8. But it's red flags when you see a 300 IO score this late into a season for me, probably will lead to problems in the dungeon but it is only an 8 so it wouldn't bother me. Above 10 though, nah I wouldn't go anywhere near 300 IO score unless you are a friend.
Raider IO is great though for the exact reason you pointed out, it is very handy to see the experience of people making groups too.

I'll make the example slightly more relevant to those players smashing keys above and beyond by increasing all the values:

Example: I have an M+12 key and 450 raider.io score: OM:J+8 3-chest, OM:W+10 1-chest, KR+12 1-chest and SoB+15 completed, but failed timer. I'm 460 DPS looking for 455.

You would change your opinion, even though it's exactly the same situation scaled up?

[arkanon]

Those people who clear mythic whilst raid logging have a group though that they play with. And most likely do their +15 every week with right now. IO doesnt affect them....

I dont pug M+. Sometimes i will invite one pug if someone bails on us, but i run with the same group of people - or at least people from the same pool of players i know. As such, i have never once looked at my io - No doubt its a complete dumpster fire and a huge embarrassment - but it is not relevant to me as a player, so i honestly just dont care. I guess if i was consistently pugging high keys, that would be a bit different, but as it is, its mostly a non-issue for me.

[T-34]

This isn't the fault of r.io but rather the community's use of r.io and how we've come to use r.io as a "quick and dirty" metric of how experienced a player is even though the r.io score is based not solely on an individual's ability but rather that individual's ability within a group of players.

There is no "community". You yourself wrote and I completely agree that WoW is played by a very diverse group of people, both regarding skill, time, interests, language etc.
"Community" is just a euphemism for "you should behave how I want you to behave".

When I play with random people I want to be able to filter them in order that my game experience will be as pleasant as possible. How those random people get their experience is their problem, not mine. Other random people filter me mercilessly when they make their groups and I wouldn't expect anything different from when they make their groups.

When I play with people I know, that being friends, guildies etc. the rules are different, obviously.

You should accept, as I do, that the guy making the group can invite people based on any system he wants: Ilvl, experience, transmog, name, sex, class etc.
Getting upset/finding it unfair that you don't get invited is a waste of your time and happiness.

[Very rare pepe]

A group of 40s with limited time could also achieve the same, just not as quickly as World First, Realm First, or MDI levels of speed. BUT that's predicated on having a group of like minded people.

I think the root of your point comes down to people wanting to play WoW(an MMORPG) on their own, doing their own thing without worrying or caring about what other players are doing. They want a solo experience in an MMORPG and I would say that perhaps they should accept that if you choose to not make like minded friends or join a guild or a community, then expect to have short comings when joining groups, whether raider IO exacerbates that problem or not isn't clear for me. But they have chosen to treat WoW as a single player experience.

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I dont pug M+. Sometimes i will invite one pug if someone bails on us, but i run with the same group of people - or at least people from the same pool of players i know. As such, i have never once looked at my io - No doubt its a complete dumpster fire and a huge embarrassment - but it is not relevant to me as a player, so i honestly just dont care. I guess if i was consistently pugging high keys, that would be a bit different, but as it is, its mostly a non-issue for me.

And that is how most people who are in guilds operate and that is great. IO is just needed for the pugging scene where people who choose to not make that step into communites/guilds will suffer and it is their own fault.

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I'll make the example slightly more relevant to those players smashing keys above and beyond by increasing all the values:

Example: I have an M+12 key and 450 raider.io score: OM:J+8 3-chest, OM:W+10 1-chest, KR+12 1-chest and SoB+15 completed, but failed timer. I'm 460 DPS looking for 455.

You would change your opinion, even though it's exactly the same situation scaled up?

This late into the season, yes. It isn't worth the risk of wasting my time. But if your 12 key was a KR I would continue searching and maybe come back if I didn't get invited into anything else.