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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmid View Post
    Edit: For example if two players queued up for my weekly max item level key, one having 95% avg parses in the raid, and one having done all keys in time at +10, the choice would be very easy.
    I wouldn't invite either of them.
    I don't care about raid exp in a m+ dungeon.
    I don't care for 10s exp in a weekly (= 15).
    I would wait till someone with at least this dungeon finished on 13 would appear.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmid View Post
    I meant raid parses.



    Sure it will never tell you everything you need to know. But if the addon for instance told you average best parses for all bosses killed in the current patch raid tier, that would, to me at least, be much more informative of the skill level of a player compared to a r.io score as it is today. Even if it is for raid content instead of M+.

    Edit: For example if two players queued up for my weekly max item level key, one having 95% avg parses in the raid, and one having done all keys in time at +10, the choice would be very easy.
    Raid parses? Absolutely braindead idea. I for example don't rain at all atm, only keys.

    Why not look at arena rating while at it.

  3. #623
    Brewmaster Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    So if you play little and try to be a solo player in a multiplayer game you're screwed?

    And that's the reason you want to destroy raider.io for everybody else?
    I never said that. In fact, I'm fine with r.io but I'm merely bringing to light a specific situation where the community's dependence on r.io score can cause issues.

    And as for solo player in a MMORPG, might I point you to take a look at LFD/LFR systems which caters to solo players. Part of it is necessary as the demographic of WoW ages but at the same time, it's convenient to be able to jump in an do a quick dungeon/raid without spending time in trade chat LFG. If folks want that kind of experience then go play WoW Classic.
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  4. #624
    Raider.io is just another system that PLAYERS created in order to compete and measure achievements with other players. And people just need to accept it that those systems WILL ALLWAYS EXIST in a multiplayer online games. Its a competitive game and you will allways be judged by other players how good you are in the game. If you dont like it.. just play single player games. 80% of the game population atm are casuals and blizzard tries very hard to make their life more comfortable, but this is something out of their hands. IF there is a wall placed infront of you by other players. Dont hate the wall, or complain to blizzard to remove it. You have to either find a way to climb that wall or ignore it and go in a different dirrection.
    Yes if you are declined for m+ 10 while you have 2k rio high ilvl and 40+ lvl 10 keys completed in time... means someone with more experience took your place. Its not the system's fault. Its the person who created the group choice and its in his right to pick and chose whoever he want. That does not means you are bad and you wont do good if you were chosen. It would have had the same chance to happen if you were playing classic or game without RIo. Players will judge you in one way or another. Learn to deal with it and either improve or just dont play this Multiplayer game.

  5. #625
    Brewmaster Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    There is no "community".
    I disagree. To me "community" is basically the majority of the population of players who play wow. Also known as "the mob" who does some really stupid things at times.

    Like the posts asking for FotM, or posts that talk about if you aren't play <insert meta> then you aren't "gud"(and therefore not worth my time).

    Currently the "community" is fixated on r.io for PuG M+ because frankly we don't have a good "quick and dirty" method to evaluate the players who apply for slots in a M+ run. For smooth and successful (as in under time) runs of M+, we all want good players who not only know their class/spec but the dungeon and its nuances. And yeah, skill and gear are also factors as well but because we don't have a standard. We (the community) have resorted to various metrics of our own. From GearScore to achievement linking to r.io, it's all because what we really need is a PvE rating similar to the PvP rating that already exists in WoW.

    And furthermore, that rating would need to be comprehensive, not only covering throughput but also mastery and knowledge of said PvE content. From interrupting the right spells, spellsteal/purging/soothing enemy buffs, to off-role flexibility (i.e. the non-disc healer that does damage, or the warrior/dh DPS that provides a taunt so the tank can let stacks drop), and other such things that make a wow player great.

    Currently r.io doesn't really provide that as there are plenty of horrible players with high scores and also great players but with low r.io scores. Sure 9 times out of 10, going with the higher r.io score is the best option for now.
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  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmid View Post
    I meant raid parses.
    Is this an out of season April Fools joke?

    Aren't we talking about M+ here?
    I have played with 12/12M people who couldn't handle 15-17 keys AT ALL.

    Raiding is raiding, M+ is M+, arena is arena.

    I mean, you could be asking for pet battle meta achievements too at this point, same amount of correlation.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    What I hate MOST about r.io is the fact that it is a 3rd party web site that follows every single character with(out) our will.
    Why? Do you seriously hate the idea of publicly available info that others then take and make stuff like this out of? WTF does that matter?

    You're aware that games like destiny have gone EVEN FARTHER with their APIs, right? Stop trying to hide your embarrassing statistics because you don't want people to be prejudice against you. They deserve to know as much as possible before deciding if they like you enough to group or not.

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    What Twdft (and others like him) refuse to acknowledge is that every player is able to do the level of M+ that is appropriate for their gear, and does not want to relinquish the excessive control they have over the progression of other players.
    Absolute bullshit. I meet 475+ ilvl people who can't pull their weight in M15-20 on a weekly basis.

    Also, noone besides yourself has any control over your own progression. Nothing stops you from making your own group with your own key, and you are not entitled to be invited to other people´s groups.
    Last edited by Captain Douchebag; 2020-09-01 at 03:19 PM.

  9. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Very rare pepe View Post
    It doesn't take long, especially when you consider how long a season goes on for, for a player of all types to build up an IO score. If you can't afford to give what? 20 hours? 30 hours? 40 hours? over a whole season to your apparent interest in pushing high keys, then perhaps you aren't as interested in it as you thought?
    The problem is that the time investment necessary (at least for new players or players without group support) takes longer the deeper into the season you go. What might take only 20~30 hours at the start of the season may become 1.5x to 2x longer mid-season. Remember at the beginning of the season, everybody's score is zero so group leaders are more prone to pick based off some other metric. Mid-season, r.io becomes a stronger metric so it punishes newer players.

    Now I'm not saying that this isn't fair. By all means, everybody should have to earn their stripes as it were. But one of the issues on the dependence of r.io is that increases the bar of entry or in this case acceptance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Very rare pepe View Post
    That's a completely non point and one I see thrown around very often on this thread.
    Then let me re-clarify the point: Your r.io score is based on the TEAM's effort to complete a dungeon. It's entirely possible to have a horrible player in a great team complete a dungeon in time to give that horrible player a great r.io score (whether it was paid for or not). This makes r.io a bit inaccurate as a reflection of a players performance YET most group leaders take r.io as GOSPEL-level regarding the skill/knowledge a player supposedly has. Granted because r.io is a summation across all the dungeons, it's less likely that a high r.io score translates into the player being a poor player, but there are potentials for abuse.

    For instance, one of my guildmates has a super-inflated r.io score because they get invited on their other toon to do fairly high keys (relative to the rest of us). They know they are being carried by the group and have no "right" to having such a high r.io score. Yet because they have such a high score on that toon, they reap the benefit across the rest of their characters from r.io linking all their characters. Fortunately, that guildmate has a good head for how much they can really do and they don't abuse (too much) their super high r.io score.

    Quote Originally Posted by Very rare pepe View Post
    if he gets found out, he gets put on ignore and not invited again to that group
    Yeah unfortunately, they could just as easily hop to another toon. One lack of feature of Blizzard is the inability to ignore/blacklist a player at the b.net account level. So that if you found a bad player, you can just blacklist them completely instead of just 1 of their many toons.
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  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Lubefist View Post
    Raid parses? Absolutely braindead idea. I for example don't rain at all atm, only keys.

    Why not look at arena rating while at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    Is this an out of season April Fools joke?

    Aren't we talking about M+ here?
    I have played with 12/12M people who couldn't handle 15-17 keys AT ALL.

    Raiding is raiding, M+ is M+, arena is arena.

    I mean, you could be asking for pet battle meta achievements too at this point, same amount of correlation.
    All I'm saying is that parses says way more about a players skill level than their r.io score. No matter the content.

  11. #631
    I know plenty of people who raid the first half of a tier on mythic but get carried *hard*. The number of deaths I saw on fights like mythic Antoran High Command blew my mind. It's like some of these people I had just finished doing a +14 with couldn't figure out what game they were playing in a raid. Some players are far better and comfortable in M+. You can't compare raiding mythic and mythic+ because they are entirely different.

    Some people feel comfortable and at-home in raiding environments but don't know dungeons or care to learn them.
    Some people really fucking hate raiding but absolutely love M+.
    Some people are comfortable and enjoy both areas.

    If you're looking for people to raid with, you can find someone's raid experience in Armory, Raider.IO, and Warcraft Logs.
    If you're looking for people to M+ with, you can find someone's M+ experience in Armory, Raider.IO, and Warcraft Logs if they bother logging their runs.

    Raider.IO is a very unbiased tool that outputs of information that can be used to determine how experienced someone (including one's self) is.
    Warcraft Logs is bloated with people who don't give a shit about anything but padding damage.
    Armory is, well, a broad overview.
    Last edited by skorgg; 2020-09-01 at 03:54 PM.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmid View Post
    All I'm saying is that parses says way more about a players skill level than their r.io score. No matter the content.
    This is not true.

    It's like saying someone with high M+ score inherently knows mythic raid mechanics.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Lubefist View Post
    You're the most toxic kind of tank I know. The ones who have to underline how "irreplaceable" you are because you chose to pursue tanking in this game.

    Good players will keep their little man-syndrome in check when dps pulls and pick up the trash that was pulled while the mediocre tanks at best with huge egos usually focus on typing some useless witty shit in the partychat and slow down the whole run because someone didn't respect their role as a tank and are too proud to just shut the fuck up and press taunt.
    Well, I´m not Irreplacable, if you as DPS can tank, then do it. I´m not stopping you.

    It has nothing to do with "Littleman" or any kind of Powerplay, I dont do extra Effort because you dont know what your Job is. And the one who slows down the whole run is the DPS who pulls stuff, dies, and does no Damage at all. And then probably complains to either the Healer or the Tank that he died.

    I wont even engage in groupchat with someone who thinks its cool to pull more stuff than the Tank thinks he can handle.

    If you think its Toxic that other players dont carry your inadequacy in your role that you chose, then its too bad.
    I mean, you dont sound like a Tank, how about you go tanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Heal aggro exists. That dps will quickly lose aggro, will survive and instead it's the healer who dies.
    I dont mean the DPS who accidentally pull stuff when they step a bit to close to a Pat, or get knocked in another group or whatever.
    I mean these kinds who constantly deliberately pull extra stuff. Its easy to tell the Healer to not heal that Idiot for a few seconds.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by skorgg View Post
    I know plenty of people who raid the first half of a tier on mythic but get carried *hard*. The number of deaths I saw on fights like mythic Antoran High Command blew my mind. It's like these people I had just finished doing a +14 with couldn't figure out what game they were playing. However, some of those same players were far better and comfortable in M+.

    You can't compare the two because they are entirely different. Some people feel comfortable and at-home in raiding environments but drop the ball in dungeons (or don't care enough to dedicate their time learning) and you have some that really fucking hate raiding but absolutely love M+.

    Some people are comfortable and enjoy both areas.
    Well, I get your point, but even if you get carried hard in a raid, your parse will not lie. It will say if you are a good dps or not, because it is based on your performance compared to everyone else playing the same class with same ilvl. However you cant tell that by looking at an rio score, because it only tells you what you have done, not how well you did it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    This is not true.

    It's like saying someone with high M+ score inherently knows mythic raid mechanics.
    rio tells you what the player has done, parses tells you how well the player did it. You really don't see the difference?

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    If anyone else pulls in a pug i save him once. If he is doing this again i let him die then taunt. You DON'T pull unless it was talked about bevorehand. WHen i play with my guildies i don't mind them pulling because we know who has what ability ready and we have done it multiple times so we are trained.

    If i wait with pulling as a tank there is in 99% of cases a reason for it.
    How DARE you. You cant wait with a Pull. It wastes precious Seconds. Who cares about Heal Mana, or Skill Cooldowns. Only DPS matters!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Very rare pepe View Post
    Have had this happen to me, it did make tanking a dungeon more stressful, but I tend to just suck it up until the run is over and then I decide to not play with that dps anymore.
    And this is why we have overall a Tank Shortage, new Tanks get treated like shit and have DPS make their job at which they might not be really used to harder than it should and has to be.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmid View Post
    Well, I get your point, but even if you get carried hard in a raid, your parse will not lie. It will say if you are a good dps or not, because it is based on your performance compared to everyone else playing the same class with same ilvl. However you cant tell that by looking at an rio score, because it only tells you what you have done, not how well you did it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    rio tells you what the player has done, parses tells you how well the player did it. You really don't see the difference?
    You could cheat parses too just as easily by refusing to do raid mechanics. There.

    High rio is impossible to cheat. You can't have 4k score and 200 m+ runs and be bad at M+.
    You can have legendary parses on Maut and be horrible at M+.

    You're comparing two different things completely.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmid View Post
    Why isn't there an addon telling peoples parses from WCL instead? Would be a much better indication on someones skill than how many keys they nolifed through.
    This is what I´m longing for. It would make inviting People for PuGs so much easier.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    Well, I´m not Irreplacable, if you as DPS can tank, then do it. I´m not stopping you.

    It has nothing to do with "Littleman" or any kind of Powerplay, I dont do extra Effort because you dont know what your Job is. And the one who slows down the whole run is the DPS who pulls stuff, dies, and does no Damage at all. And then probably complains to either the Healer or the Tank that he died.

    I wont even engage in groupchat with someone who thinks its cool to pull more stuff than the Tank thinks he can handle.

    If you think its Toxic that other players dont carry your inadequacy in your role that you chose, then its too bad.
    I mean, you dont sound like a Tank, how about you go tanking.


    I dont mean the DPS who accidentally pull stuff when they step a bit to close to a Pat, or get knocked in another group or whatever.
    I mean these kinds who constantly deliberately pull extra stuff. Its easy to tell the Healer to not heal that Idiot for a few seconds.
    It sure sounds like it lol.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Currently the "community" is fixated on r.io for PuG M+ because frankly we don't have a good "quick and dirty" method to evaluate the players who apply for slots in a M+ run. For smooth and successful (as in under time) runs of M+, we all want good players who not only know their class/spec but the dungeon and its nuances. And yeah, skill and gear are also factors as well but because we don't have a standard. We (the community) have resorted to various metrics of our own. From GearScore to achievement linking to r.io, it's all because what we really need is a PvE rating similar to the PvP rating that already exists in WoW..
    With the addition of mythic+ data on the armoury we now have the best data we ever had in WoW to make our decisions on whom to invite to our groups.
    Could that data be improved? Maybe. But I doubt that Blizzard would make its own PVE-rating-system. I think it suits Blizzard just fine to have the playerbase filter each other out. It saves Blizzard ressources and players get mad at each other instead of getting mad at Blizzard for "gatekeeping".

    All this discussion stems from the simple fact that "fun" is something very different for certain groups of players.
    My reason to be here in this thread is to argue that one should try to find like-minded players to play with and accept that there are others who do not share ones definition of "fun".
    Trying to force players that have different definitions of fun to play together can only lead to misery for both groups.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    You could cheat parses too just as easily by refusing to do raid mechanics. There.

    High rio is impossible to cheat. You can't have 4k score and 200 m+ runs and be bad at M+.
    You can have legendary parses on Maut and be horrible at M+.

    You're comparing two different things completely.
    At least you participated on the raid and know how to do damage if you parsed well. A high rio score could just be a carry where you actually did absolutely nothing. I completely disagree with you, I think it's much easier to cheat a rio score because all you have to do is be in the dungeon.

    Like, you show up to a high M+ and a mythic raid boss. You do nothing on any of the two scenarios. Your rio score is completely the same as someone who worked their ass off in that M+, while the raid parse will be 0 for the AFKer and 90+ for the one who actually did his job. This is all I've been trying to say here. Therefore I think parses say more than rio-score.

    But what you say about VERY high rio and many keys done, is hard to cheat and few people do it, that I agree on.

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