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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by pathebaker View Post
    You say no but let me ask you and maybe everyone else this or to people who do them regularly. Are they hard up to 15's? I've asked myself this many times. I think at the start of the expansion sure but once we get to the middle or the end theirs some groups doing 25+'s. I'm not saying they don't deserve to be there I'm saying that for blizzard its the same thing as why they made LFR. Because a nice part of the game and a hefty chunk of content that an average player doesn't get to experience and they invest so much time into them. I also think that people wont get better if we as a community continue to bar everyone from doing them unless they run with friends or in a guild. make it queue-able to 15 with internal scores like gear and exp etc and all of a sudden people are willing to run them infinitely. Take away key depletion. you fail your key drops maybe 2 levels or more idk but then it eliminates the worry. if you want to go higher than a +15 you as the player have to build your own group but you as the player get your weekly done.

    the problem is simple. some people get the shiny box at the end of the week and some people don't. with this fix everyone does and its completely on the player whether they do or not. not based on whether some randoms decided you weren't good enough to go.

    And everyone needs to stop saying join a guild or get your friends. That's a bad argument imo because that's why people are stuck in the situation as is. They don't want to join a guild because the "mean ol guild master and officers" and they don't play with their friends much so it makes things difficult.
    This contradicts itself. Do you even know how it works?
    A depletion is a downgrade by 1.
    No one can tell you if keys are "hard". It's subjective. If you are a good player, they are not hard at all till 15. They will never be hard then. They will just be less forgiving and way tighter.
    Automated LFG M+ would increase the participation, yes - but there will be way way waaaay more runs that will fail. And the more runs fail, the less GOOD people will use the automated LFG tool => even more failed runs.
    If you want to participate in M+, just use the premade tool like everyone else.
    If you aren't invited because you don't have the exp that you NEED at some key levels, get more exp. How? Do lower keys, like EVERYONE else did before.

    @Wuusah Thanks bud, I'm completely on your side.
    Last edited by Bloodyleech; 2020-09-04 at 08:26 PM.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    Seems rather arrogant to say that, when I know for a fact I'm better than 95% of the WoW community at just about everything due to experience. My score is likely non-existent because I don't run them, but if I do, I'm going to crush everyone else in the group.
    yeah dude,im sure you that doesnt ever do m+ will crush all those high IO scrubs that push keys every day

    on a more serious note,wuusah guy is just being silly,i also dont do m+ and wile im not gr8 at them and wouldnt be able to push,i can do +15 just fine,but if i was declined because of my score it would just be annoying,people worship that score and stop thinking rationaly,but to be fair i main a healer and almost always get instant invited for 15's

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    yeah dude,im sure you that doesnt ever do m+ will crush all those high IO scrubs that push keys every day

    on a more serious note,wuusah guy is just being silly,i also dont do m+ and wile im not gr8 at them and wouldnt be able to push,i can do +15 just fine,but if i was declined because of my score it would just be annoying,people worship that score and stop thinking rationaly,but to be fair i main a healer and almost always get instant invited for 15's
    Your score can't be to bad if you get invited into 15s. Even healers and tanks have hard-checks. I will never ever invite a tank or healer below a reasonable knowledge of the dungeon. At least a timed 10 is required, especially for tanks.
    For dps: why should I invite people with less experience that could deplete a key? If you can't bother getting a minimum amount of experience first, it's on you /shrug
    Last edited by Bloodyleech; 2020-09-04 at 08:43 PM.

  4. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    Your score can't be to bad if you get invited into 15s. Even healers and tanks have hard-checks. I will never ever invite a tank or healer below a reasonable knowledge of the dungeon. At least a timed 10 is required, especially for tanks.
    ofc it can,i have only done 2-3 dungeons as 15,the others didnt even enter,ofc my score is going to be extremly shit

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    yeah dude,im sure you that doesnt ever do m+ will crush all those high IO scrubs that push keys every day

    on a more serious note,wuusah guy is just being silly,i also dont do m+ and wile im not gr8 at them and wouldnt be able to push,i can do +15 just fine,but if i was declined because of my score it would just be annoying,people worship that score and stop thinking rationaly,but to be fair i main a healer and almost always get instant invited for 15's
    It really depends what state of the game we are talking about. Corruptions made it way, way easier. Especially now with >100 corruption resistance. But it’s the end of the expansion and it’s very likely never going to be that crazy again. Without corruption, +15 is challenging. I wouldn’t want to do that with completely random players, ever.

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    ofc it can,i have only done 2-3 dungeons as 15,the others didnt even enter,ofc my score is going to be extremly shit
    For some people some 15s in time are fine, you got kinda lucky then.

  7. #747
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    yeah

    There is a very simple reason, why stuff like raider.IO, warcraftlogs or dps meters will go nowhere and exists until the last Blizz server is offline forever:

    Blizz controls what data is accessible. And Blizz will continue to make that data accessible, so that all above stuff can exist. why ? because it is good for Blizzard, when they exist.

    Just think about a world without dps meters. magically the boss is down, after a few tries, after enough ppl played/did their shit right. a fight where

    - no one knows who did right
    - or did not
    - no one knows which penis is larger than his own
    - no one knows who the noob is
    - no „curved only 480 item level“
    - no blaming
    - no battling
    - no competition between players
    - no reason to improve, because it is not seen anyway

    in the moment you prevent all of this, you kill the most massive carrot on a stick WoW ever had.

    and plz dont tell me, for the majority of players in 2020, a dead boss (regardless how) is the top priority, and everything else is uninteressting. that socialized mmorpg times are long over.

    Blizz has ZERO interests imo, that raider.IO go away.
    There are some games today that ban Damage meters and have huge populations.. FFXIV. They have one that you can run outside of game but its a bannable offense if you are caught so no one talks about it and no way in hell do you call anyone out in game for low dps. They have content that is as hard if not harder than WoW content and they manage to kill bosses. So do use the, players have to have it to kill bosses, it doesn't hold water.

    I played Everquest for many years and we somehow manage to kill bosses without DPS meters and without voice chat..

    DPS meters and Raider.io are nothing more than a way to judge players. Nothing makes a mediocre player feel better about himself/herself more than outdoing someone on the meters.

    What makes it even funnier, is that those same mediocre players ALWAYS migrate to whatever the Meta class of that expansion is. For SL, you are going to see more Warlocks than ever, because they are the new Meta class.
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  8. #748
    realistically they need to get rid of the overall rIO score or recalculate it and base it on the dungeon that your trying to run.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaice View Post
    realistically they need to get rid of the overall rIO score or recalculate it and base it on the dungeon that your trying to run.
    It already works like this.
    You always see the highest level done on the key that is looked at/for. It's just some peoples fault for only looking on overall score instead of the dungeon that you want people for.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    There are some games today that ban Damage meters and have huge populations.. FFXIV. They have one that you can run outside of game but its a bannable offense if you are caught so no one talks about it and no way in hell do you call anyone out in game for low dps. They have content that is as hard if not harder than WoW content and they manage to kill bosses. So do use the, players have to have it to kill bosses, it doesn't hold water.

    I played Everquest for many years and we somehow manage to kill bosses without DPS meters and without voice chat..

    DPS meters and Raider.io are nothing more than a way to judge players. Nothing makes a mediocre player feel better about himself/herself more than outdoing someone on the meters.

    What makes it even funnier, is that those same mediocre players ALWAYS migrate to whatever the Meta class of that expansion is. For SL, you are going to see more Warlocks than ever, because they are the new Meta class.
    Sorry to burst your bubble but FF14 has no difficult dungeon content. And for raid bosses, those who consistently beat them before they overgear it either use a parser, play with someone who uses a parser or use fflogs. People who underperform also get kicked from groups all the time because they are holding the group back from a kill.

    Also raids are not in the queue. Just like M+ it’s only premade. And FF14 is a way way WAY more miserable experience when you come in late. Because everyone who is decent did it in the first week and in the second week they don’t play with players who haven’t beaten it anymore. The quality of teammates drops drastically week after week. Rio is a thousand times better because it’s not binary (either you beat it before or you didn’t)

  11. #751
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble but FF14 has no difficult dungeon content. And for raid bosses, those who consistently beat them before they overgear it either use a parser, play with someone who uses a parser or use fflogs. People who underperform also get kicked from groups all the time because they are holding the group back from a kill.

    Also raids are not in the queue. Just like M+ it’s only premade. And FF14 is a way way WAY more miserable experience when you come in late. Because everyone who is decent did it in the first week and in the second week they don’t play with players who haven’t beaten it anymore. The quality of teammates drops drastically week after week. Rio is a thousand times better because it’s not binary (either you beat it before or you didn’t)
    First off. Show me where I said Dungeon. I didn't. I said bosses. As in Raid Bosses.
    My context was about Damage meters with a small part of Raider.io
    So you are incorrect.

    Less than 40% of all players have cleared Savage Content. So ya, not so much. There is content that is difficult. I can not tell you how it compares to Mythic Raids from WoW, because Ive not raided Savage in FFXIV.

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  12. #752
    Scarab Lord Triggered Fridgekin's Avatar
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  13. #753
    The reasons gearscore was bad had nothing to do with elitism.

    1. Gearscore didn't really give much indication of experience, since PvP gear, which was obtainable without ever zoning into a raid, gave the same or equivalent score.
    2. Gearscore actively lagged and disconnected players.

    raider.io is the opposite of gearscore. It ignores a player's gear and literally tells you what experience they have. It's the WoW equivalent of a CV. The only real issue with raider.io is the overall score which shouldn't exist or at least shouldn't be displayed so prominently, since overall score is not really related to specific experience with that dungeon.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Do you really think people who don’t get to finish +15s right now would be able to do them if they were queueable? Just because some people finish 25s does not mean 15 is easy content. 15s are forgiving to some extent, but you need to understand boss and trash mechanics to beat the timer. You need to really know the dungeon to beat a +15 and you need to know your class/spec. A +15 is forgiving enough so that some mistakes can be fixed by having an experienced healer which you might not get with random players put in a group together.
    You really think you’re gonna get quality players in your queues? Players who know what they are doing? You think players who couldn’t be bothered to put in enough effort to get into a premade group will bother enough to communicate and pull their weight in the dungeon?

    a premade team that plays a lot together with players who did those dungeons hundreds of times is able to go way beyond +15s. But even for a pug that uses rio to choose their players a +15 is decently challenging. For a group that is put together by a random queue, this will be extremely hard.

    And here is the hard truth: the weekly chest is not meant as a login reward. If you can’t be bothered to put in the effort to do one +15 dungeon then you don’t deserve the shiny loot in it. It is not a thing of impossibility to do it in pug groups. It is not impossible to start from the bottom and grind your way up. The only person who stands in your way is you. Not the people who aren’t inviting you. Your mentality to give up and complain is what is standing in your way. A queue won’t help you. It will just move the problem somewhere else. Now you get rejected, with a queue you’ll get players who always immediately leave after a wipe. You’re gonna wait for half an hour for a tank and then someone will make one mistake and the run is over. Because that’s how people are in random queues. Just look at the revolving door that is N’Zoth LFR

    Edit: also why do you think people get declined? It’s because of two reasons:
    1. They want to jump ahead in experience. Why do you want to do a +15 if you didn’t do a +13-14 in that dungeon yet? Work your way up!
    2. you are playing a role that everyone else is playing as well: dps. When 30 dps try to join one group then 90% get declined, no matter how good they are. But a queue doesn’t change anything in that regard. You’ll just wait half an hour for a tank.


    Edit:



    I don’t think M0 is that easy. It’s easy now when you outgear it so much but at the start of the expansion it’s not so easy. Not super difficult, but not something I’d expect random groups to beat on average. Once it’s outgeared, who cares.
    Look at it as a test run. Isn’t it a good thing to have a baseline untimed difficulty mode that asks of you to get out of your shell and manually look for a group? The stakes are low, the content is not too difficult and it’s just a great tutorial to use the group finder for.

    So in my orginal post i said that their should be internal scores. Like normal you should be able to queue and lets say for example kings rest. it should just have a thing for +7 based on if/how many times you've run kings rest and your gearscore and you should be able to do the dungeon no problem. I didnt say they were easy but i also dont think they are overally hard but again as you said subjective. I do think you should grind to get there. i think you should have to do that +1,2,3 etc a few times all the way up before the game decides that your ready for the big+15 that your trying to complete. I do think you should have to work for that chest at the end of the week And when you do get there you should feel accomplished that you made it. To your exact points 1. i dont think you should skip i think you should work for it.

    2. Where we differ tho is how people should get there. Do you play a surv hunter? do you play a feral druid? do you play a shaman? mistweaver, shadow priest, bear druid? see that's where we differ in are argument. I'm not saying these classes aren't represented at all but for the most part they aren't considered for an average group. the problem is their are these classes that people enjoy playing and because of the community itself as a whole we have decided that these players cant play the game. Its not about just dps its about the right dps, healers, and tanks. Currently the "meta" is if you play anything other than an outlaw rogue, a bm hunter, demon hunter, prot warrior, resto druid, and a couple others you don't get to play the game. put yourself in other players shoes sometimes. think about the players that play the game and they play once a week they enjoy it but they want a bit more out of their Wow grind everyday. why cant they queue and just jump in without worrying about whether or not if their the right spec or the right class to play. What about the players who have to only an hour to play a night. To your example above why do they have to wait a half hour for a tank only to have barely a half hour to run the dungeon. making the group, getting to the stone, making sure everyone is ready. all of this stuff takes time. we exclude classes because the top 1% don't play those classes.its not their fault they play whatever is best and so the other players who are just starting out or don't know any better or the diehards for whatever spec that there is play those because they love those specs but now they don't get to play the game because randoms told them they couldn't.

    and again take joining guilds and friends out of it.

    I think that if we were to ask the average wow player if they like the "revolving door that is N'zoth" in LFR right now over never experiencing raiding at all I think most would say yeah at least i got to see it. final part to that is; if you want to complete it you stay and you learn don't you? i didn't do N'zoth normal or any higher difficulty. i stayed my 2 hours and 10 deter stacks in LFR like everyone else till i did the fight right and got it done. I'm not saying that everyone has time like that but if you want something done you stay to learn and complete it. People failing, quitting, and joining is fine but if you don't get to try you don't get to succeed.

    In-fact take away keys period. relieve the pressure of "my key could get depleted" make it just about how high you can/want to run it.

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by pathebaker View Post
    So in my orginal post i said that their should be internal scores. Like normal you should be able to queue and lets say for example kings rest. it should just have a thing for +7 based on if/how many times you've run kings rest and your gearscore and you should be able to do the dungeon no problem. I didnt say they were easy but i also dont think they are overally hard but again as you said subjective. I do think you should grind to get there. i think you should have to do that +1,2,3 etc a few times all the way up before the game decides that your ready for the big+15 that your trying to complete. I do think you should have to work for that chest at the end of the week And when you do get there you should feel accomplished that you made it. To your exact points 1. i dont think you should skip i think you should work for it.

    2. Where we differ tho is how people should get there. Do you play a surv hunter? do you play a feral druid? do you play a shaman? mistweaver, shadow priest, bear druid? see that's where we differ in are argument. I'm not saying these classes aren't represented at all but for the most part they aren't considered for an average group. the problem is their are these classes that people enjoy playing and because of the community itself as a whole we have decided that these players cant play the game. Its not about just dps its about the right dps, healers, and tanks. Currently the "meta" is if you play anything other than an outlaw rogue, a bm hunter, demon hunter, prot warrior, resto druid, and a couple others you don't get to play the game. put yourself in other players shoes sometimes. think about the players that play the game and they play once a week they enjoy it but they want a bit more out of their Wow grind everyday. why cant they queue and just jump in without worrying about whether or not if their the right spec or the right class to play. What about the players who have to only an hour to play a night. To your example above why do they have to wait a half hour for a tank only to have barely a half hour to run the dungeon. making the group, getting to the stone, making sure everyone is ready. all of this stuff takes time. we exclude classes because the top 1% don't play those classes.its not their fault they play whatever is best and so the other players who are just starting out or don't know any better or the diehards for whatever spec that there is play those because they love those specs but now they don't get to play the game because randoms told them they couldn't.

    and again take joining guilds and friends out of it.

    I think that if we were to ask the average wow player if they like the "revolving door that is N'zoth" in LFR right now over never experiencing raiding at all I think most would say yeah at least i got to see it. final part to that is; if you want to complete it you stay and you learn don't you? i didn't do N'zoth normal or any higher difficulty. i stayed my 2 hours and 10 deter stacks in LFR like everyone else till i did the fight right and got it done. I'm not saying that everyone has time like that but if you want something done you stay to learn and complete it. People failing, quitting, and joining is fine but if you don't get to try you don't get to succeed.

    In-fact take away keys period. relieve the pressure of "my key could get depleted" make it just about how high you can/want to run it.
    I have played off-meta specs in M+. It’s not that hard to find a group. You just need to keep trying. Most people don’t really care that much about the meta in that key level range. People care about experience above all.

    What is the difference between applying 10 times and being rejected 9 times, and applying one time and getting a tank after 30 minutes of waiting? You will wait a similar amount of time but your dungeon group quality will drop significantly with a queue. It would be foolish to believe otherwise.
    People should get over their fear of rejection.

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Edit: also why do you think people get declined? It’s because of two reasons:
    1. They want to jump ahead in experience. Why do you want to do a +15 if you didn’t do a +13-14 in that dungeon yet? Work your way up!
    2. you are playing a role that everyone else is playing as well: dps. When 30 dps try to join one group then 90% get declined, no matter how good they are. But a queue doesn’t change anything in that regard. You’ll just wait half an hour for a tank.
    You are forgetting a third reason: You're playing a relatively undesirable/non-meta class. And a queue absolutely fixes that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    I have played off-meta specs in M+. It’s not that hard to find a group. You just need to keep trying. Most people don’t really care that much about the meta in that key level range. People care about experience above all.

    What is the difference between applying 10 times and being rejected 9 times, and applying one time and getting a tank after 30 minutes of waiting? You will wait a similar amount of time but your dungeon group quality will drop significantly with a queue. It would be foolish to believe otherwise.
    People should get over their fear of rejection.
    Wait time isn't such an issue with a queue because you can go do other things while you wait. If you have to monitor the in-game group finder for 30 minutes it significantly reduces what else you can do in that time.

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    You are forgetting a third reason: You're playing a relatively undesirable/non-meta class. And a queue absolutely fixes that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Wait time isn't such an issue with a queue because you can go do other things while you wait. If you have to monitor the in-game group finder for 30 minutes it significantly reduces what else you can do in that time.
    Quality of groups drop significantly. People would leave groups all the time. The nature of M+ keys make a replacement impossible. The run ends after 30 minutes of waiting with someone just leaving. Again and again.

    People who think a queue would make things better didn’t really think things through. They just have this naive idea that it’s better because they don’t get rejected and get their +15 done in a week.

  18. #758
    so just make m+ soloable but keep the difficulty the same, problem solved. If you're a good player but was getting declined because addon says you have no exp now you can go solo and get exp then get invited to groups. Easy fix. No need to overcomplicate things or even argue about this. It really is an easy and elegant solution.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Quality of groups drop significantly. People would leave groups all the time. The nature of M+ keys make a replacement impossible. The run ends after 30 minutes of waiting with someone just leaving. Again and again.

    People who think a queue would make things better didn’t really think things through. They just have this naive idea that it’s better because they don’t get rejected and get their +15 done in a week.
    I agree it's a bad idea for M+, but I think there's an argument for queueable regular mythics, especially later in the expansion when they are only relevant for the weekly quest. It often takes longer to form a group for these than it takes to complete the dungeon itself.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Classic 12 years old answer.
    When you feel the need to reference age to make a point it usually means that you're the one that needs to grow up. If you have no problem doing difficult content then do it. Your RIO will increase passively if you are indeed as good as you claim you are. Surely you run dungeons for weeklies and such? If you've achieved those things then RIO will help you to display those achievements without having to dig through a persons achievement list.

    Before RIO people would spend time to look people up on the armory which shows the same information anyway, RIO just makes it easier to tell what kind of content people have done and tells you how frequently they do said content successfully.

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