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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by Bozey17 View Post

    1. Players want to play m+ but cant because they are being gatekeeped.
    There is no such thing as "gate-keeping" in WoW. Everybody has the same right and possibilities to make a group and invite people to do all the content in the game.

  2. #902
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    This is an imaginary problem. Everyone has their own key and the ability to make a group. People are just too lazy or whatever to do it. So they rather have other people do the job and then just join in. Like "if you set everything up for the party I'll stop by later and drink the beers."

    People say making a group is "hard". But it's the same for everyone. Someone has to do it. The problem is the skewed ratio between dps and tanks in the game. Not all dps are going to be able to join a group at one given moment because there are not enough tanks for that to happen. And this has nothing to do with RIO.
    There's a lot of tanks in the game but a lot of them don't play with pugs.

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by Rung View Post
    There's a lot of tanks in the game but a lot of them don't play with pugs.
    Haha yes there are a lot of tanks in the game. But there are more dps

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by Rung View Post
    There's a lot of tanks in the game but a lot of them don't play with pugs.
    Although I do not intend to agree or disagree with you, this gave me an inspiration to do a quick random raiderio.io check: how many tanks, healers and damage dealers are there above some score? I'll arbitrarily pick 2k score (I have no idea how choosing a higher or a lower score should affect the ratio).

    Tanks: 89,161
    Healers: 102,729
    Damage dealers: 308,463

    For each tank, there are 1.15 healers and 3.45 damage dealers. I am surprised, I thought the ratio would not be that close to 1:1:3.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    Although I do not intend to agree or disagree with you, this gave me an inspiration to do a quick random raiderio.io check: how many tanks, healers and damage dealers are there above some score? I'll arbitrarily pick 2k score (I have no idea how choosing a higher or a lower score should affect the ratio).

    Tanks: 89,161
    Healers: 102,729
    Damage dealers: 308,463

    For each tank, there are 1.15 healers and 3.45 damage dealers. I am surprised, I thought the ratio would not be that close to 1:1:3.
    that's the point Rung made. In pugs you don't have this ratio. A significant amount of tanks doesn't pug much. There isn't really that big of a tank scarcity in WoW. There just is a tank scarcity in world of pugcraft. And anyone who tanked in pugs knows why.

  6. #906
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    Although I do not intend to agree or disagree with you, this gave me an inspiration to do a quick random raiderio.io check: how many tanks, healers and damage dealers are there above some score? I'll arbitrarily pick 2k score (I have no idea how choosing a higher or a lower score should affect the ratio).

    Tanks: 89,161
    Healers: 102,729
    Damage dealers: 308,463

    For each tank, there are 1.15 healers and 3.45 damage dealers. I am surprised, I thought the ratio would not be that close to 1:1:3.
    That's really cool.

    If you +2 each dungeon, the score would be 240 with everything just on time:
    685,581 tanks at 240.0 or above
    722,585 healers at 240.0 or above
    2,305,764 DPS at 240.0 or above

    Ratio 1:1.05:3.36

    This does mean if every tank is in a group, 37k healers (5%) and 250k DPS (10%) are in the cold...

    For all registered Raider.IO users, it's 1,144,740 : 1,136,312 : 3,753,599, or 1:0.99:3.27.
    Last edited by Firebert; 2020-09-11 at 06:31 PM.
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  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    For each tank, there are 1.15 healers and 3.45 damage dealers. I am surprised, I thought the ratio would not be that close to 1:1:3.
    raider.io only records completed runs, so having a ratio near 1:1:3 is to be expected.

    A week has only so much hours and over hundreds of thousands of players actual playtime should even out. The only way tanks go below their 20% ratio is when they actual play longer/more dungeons than healers and dps.

  8. #908
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    raider.io only records completed runs, so having a ratio near 1:1:3 is to be expected.
    Haha yeah this should be pretty obvious to everyone. Unless people are running without a tank in some groups which I don't think happen very often in BFA :P

    I guess not all people have learned to think before they talk.

  9. #909
    Brewmaster Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Don't be sympathetic to bad/unlucky people who are behind the curve and scared of social situations: problem solved!

    I'm not interested in playing with anyone who gets themselves into pug hell land for any reason. Why should I be?
    Maybe because one day, you might find yourself there. Real life happens and when that changes the availability and dedication a player may have towards WoW, they may find themselves in pug hell one day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    2 parts of this idea are easily screwed. Have a premade...
    And let me stop you right there. As soon as you go into a premade group then the r.io (or any future substitute) goes out the window. There's no need for it because you already know the group members and (more importantly) have some form of advanced comms beyond typing in chat. We're talking about a system for PuGs where you don't know the other player directly so you need some sort of metric to judge how "well" they play. Not just experience (which is helpful) but class knowledge + execution of said knowledge.

    If you have a premade group, r.io is mostly irrelevant. You don't care about score because you know the other players.



    And lastly, go look at the other thread in this forum
    Can IO ratings be trusted if people are able to buy runs skewing its accuracy.
    Last edited by Alroxas; 2020-09-11 at 10:05 PM.
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  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    And let me stop you right there. As soon as you go into a premade group then the r.io (or any future substitute) goes out the window. There's no need for it because you already know the group members and (more importantly) have some form of advanced comms beyond typing in chat. We're talking about a system for PuGs where you don't know the other player directly so you need some sort of metric to judge how "well" they play. Not just experience (which is helpful) but class knowledge + execution of said knowledge.

    If you have a premade group, r.io is mostly irrelevant. You don't care about score because you know the other players.



    And lastly, go look at the other thread in this forum
    Can IO ratings be trusted if people are able to buy runs skewing its accuracy.
    But it's the same for your system. Your system is working EXACTLY the same as Rio, just with different rules. Both systems can be screwed easily.
    Rio is imo the better one, as you mostly need player experience depending on dungeon. It's really hard to rate someone depending on the things he does in a run (like kicking, ccing, kiting (in what way would you be able to score this?)...). Each run you do in a pug is always different. Some runs got people that kick more (you get less score), some do not kick at all (you get more score), some consist of half-premades which ruin your score completely.

    Yeah, in a premade Rio is not relevant. In a pug Rio is relevant, as you have an easy way to judge someone.
    Your system COULD be a better, but it has to many variables that can screw it. (Rio got exactly one, yours way more)
    Rio CAN be screwed, too, but it is very expensive and if you are experienced you see someone that got boosted.

    Oh, I'm pro-boosting. #1 I boost myself #2 I instantly see boosted people, so they don't bother me #3 It's a service, like trading, everyone can do with their gold whatever they want to do. No, I do not have a premade.
    Last edited by Bloodyleech; 2020-09-11 at 10:29 PM.

  11. #911
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Maybe because one day, you might find yourself there. Real life happens and when that changes the availability and dedication a player may have towards WoW, they may find themselves in pug hell one day.
    My positions and heartlessness towards circumstance and shortcomings of any kind don't magically just change because it becomes a personal issue for me. I have integrity. If I ever found myself in a situation where I couldn't get out of the game what I wanted for what I was willing to put in, I'd quit. Hey! look at that, I did.

  12. #912
    2k+: 1/1.15/3.45 (tanks: 89,161, healers: 102,729, damage dealers: 308,463) from my earlier post
    3k+: 1/1.07/3.41 (tanks: 15,916, healers: 17,126, damage dealers: 54,347)
    4k+: 1/1.05/3.35 (tanks: 3091, healers: 3263, damage dealers: 10,380)
    5k+: 1/1.07/3.25 (tanks: 586, healers: 632, damage dealers: 1909)
    6k+: 1/1/3.26 (tanks: 92, healers: 92, damage dealers: 300)
    7k+: 1/1/3 (tanks: 9, healers: 9, damage dealers: 27)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    that's the point Rung made. In pugs you don't have this ratio. A significant amount of tanks doesn't pug much. There isn't really that big of a tank scarcity in WoW. There just is a tank scarcity in world of pugcraft. And anyone who tanked in pugs knows why.
    We have no way to tell to what extent your claim is true [in different score brackets]... But the more tanks play in premades only, the more it exacerbates the above tank/healer/DPS ratios.

    For the sake of an example, let's assume that 50% of tanks from 2k+ score bracket play in premade-only groups. Then the ratio in the pug world becomes 44,580/58,148/174,720, or 1/1.3/3.91. That would mean that the pug world has roughly 4 damage dealers for each tank... So for each group inside a dungeon there is one damage dealer stuck not being able to find a group for a long time (not sure if that would be the average duration of one dungeon run, or half of that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    raider.io only records completed runs, so having a ratio near 1:1:3 is to be expected.
    The 1/1/3 ratio is expected in a world where everyone runs only in premades. (This in particular applies to 7k+ score bracket.)

    On the other hand, if we assumed that M+ is run only in pug groups, and that each damage dealer has an equal chance of getting invited in the score-appropriate LFG group, then a fraction of damage dealers will have to sit out at all times, whereas all tanks are always busy. Then the tank vs. damage dealer ratio would be reflected above.

    Now the lines between premades and pugs are blurred, so the above ratios show the most optimistic possible outlook at the M+ world (because the higher is the number of premade-only players, the worse it reflects on the shortage of tanks in the pug world).

    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    A week has only so much hours and over hundreds of thousands of players actual playtime should even out. The only way tanks go below their 20% ratio is when they actual play longer/more dungeons than healers and dps.
    Are you speaking about the playtime inside M+ dungeons, or about the overall playtime?

    I assume you speak about the overall playtime. But tanks tend to get instant-invites into M+ groups (not every group will instant invite you, but if you generously apply to multiple groups at a time, there will be one group that does). Whereas damage dealers tend to suffer through many rejections before getting an invite. Then, say, an average tank can play 3h per evening and spend 100% of that time in M+ dungeons, whereas an average damage dealer would likewise play 3h per evening (you implied the actual playtime evens out), but spend 65% of that time in dungeons and 35% of that time searching for groups in the LFG tool. This is because there are more damage dealers than tanks, so at any point a fraction of them will have to sit out.

    The tanks do spend a larger fraction of their dungeon-dedicated time actually being able to run dungeons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Haha yeah this should be pretty obvious to everyone. Unless people are running without a tank in some groups which I don't think happen very often in BFA :P

    I guess not all people have learned to think before they talk.
    Funny how your remark now reflects on your own (in)ability to think before talking.

    However, there is nothing bad about taking chances and being wrong. Especially when it comes to fostering a discussion. Most of the innovation and research happens in groups, whereas people who try to lock themselves up in an attic until they are 100% sure about everything they are going to say - tend to fail. The "think before talk" mantra is mostly applicable to emotional or impulsive outbursts that are inherently destructive, as opposed to well-meaning open-ended discussion. Do not be afraid to speak.
    Last edited by ID811717; 2020-09-12 at 04:11 AM.

  13. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by Bozey17 View Post
    You have 2 opposing problems, how do you solve both of them so that both parties are satisfied?

    1. Players want to play m+ but cant because they are being gatekeeped.
    This problem doesn't exist though. You are not being gatekeeped, you can always run your own key. Sometimes this isn't an option if you want to run a specific dungeon, but mostly players are just too lazy to form their own groups.

    You only have to level up your key once in the expansion to always have a +10/+15 key of your own to run each week.

  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    This problem doesn't exist though. You are not being gatekeeped, you can always run your own key. Sometimes this isn't an option if you want to run a specific dungeon, but mostly players are just too lazy to form their own groups.

    You only have to level up your key once in the expansion to always have a +10/+15 key of your own to run each week.
    It does exist though? Try joining a 15 pug on a dps alt with no io score, you will not be invited. Sure, you can start your own group, but anyone with a brain will just invite those who are high io and playing meta specs/classes because that is what gives you the greatest chance at success. So you just become the gatekeeper, not everyone wants to or even should be leading groups in the first place. I've left a tons of groups in the past because the leader was clueless and I could tell that those runs would be a waste of my time.

    Having inexperienced group leaders is a terrible advice to give as now you are ruining the run for 4 other people just so you can go get your item. I'd rather have a soloable / flexible group size version of m+ where the noob can try, fail, overcome, and become successful without inconveniencing other players. At the same time this solves all the other social issues that come up with mandatory group sizes, as discussed at length in this thread, including the tank shortage.

  15. #915
    Gearscore is literally still in the game, it's called Item Level.

    So it couldn't have been that bad.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Bozey17 View Post
    It does exist though? Try joining a 15 pug on a dps alt with no io score, you will not be invited. Sure, you can start your own group, but anyone with a brain will just invite those who are high io and playing meta specs/classes because that is what gives you the greatest chance at success. So you just become the gatekeeper, not everyone wants to or even should be leading groups in the first place. I've left a tons of groups in the past because the leader was clueless and I could tell that those runs would be a waste of my time.

    Having inexperienced group leaders is a terrible advice to give as now you are ruining the run for 4 other people just so you can go get your item. I'd rather have a soloable / flexible group size version of m+ where the noob can try, fail, overcome, and become successful without inconveniencing other players. At the same time this solves all the other social issues that come up with mandatory group sizes, as discussed at length in this thread, including the tank shortage.
    You’re only an inexperienced group leader if you skip levels. Thats the whole problem here. If you have no experience in a dungeon, then why do you want to do a +15 in there?

    If you have experience in a dungeon then people will invite you. If you want to join a +15, then do a +13-14 first. If you want to do +13-14 then do +11-12 first, etc.
    People will invite you if you have experience. It’s a bullshit excuse to say you won’t get invited into +15 with +14 experience. You won’t get invited into every group but a lot of people will invite you with +14 exp.

  17. #917
    Quote Originally Posted by Bozey17 View Post
    It does exist though? Try joining a 15 pug on a dps alt with no io score, you will not be invited. Sure, you can start your own group, but anyone with a brain will just invite those who are high io and playing meta specs/classes because that is what gives you the greatest chance at success. So you just become the gatekeeper, not everyone wants to or even should be leading groups in the first place..
    You don't have to "lead the group" though, just because you created the group. The tank will be effectively leading the group. All you have to do is invite people. It's really not that hard. If you invite people who have good scores on their mains, no leading is required, they will all know what to do already.

    I've done it myself, on a fresh 120 hunter, in 8.2 when hunters were not a meta class. Started with a +2 key in blue gear and had it +13 by the end of the day. And this is something you only ever have to do once on each character, once you've got your +15 key you can pretty easily keep it that level doing a couple of dungeons a week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyx View Post
    Gearscore is literally still in the game, it's called Item Level.

    So it couldn't have been that bad.
    Gearscore was bad because at the time, the best way to get a higher ilvl was to get welfare PvP gear. Oh and it also lagged everyone off the server. So not only was it useless, it was actively ruining the game.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-09-15 at 04:49 AM.

  18. #918
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Aside from just the technical issues is caused, Gearscore did also influence bad player behaviour (that's not why Blizzard banned it, but it's a fair criticism of the tool). Because it ranked entirely on gear and because it was the ubiquitous standard that people had to worry about being judged by, people started overvaluing ilvl over actual item value. Within my raid, some people stopped spreadsheeting/simming and just always went for the highest ilvl pieces, regardless of whether they were actually good for them, and likewise avoided lower ilvl pieces that were very powerful, because they knew they'd be judged unfairly for those things. Worse than just artificially crippling your own numbers, some players got so hyperfocused on item level that they'd roll on stuff that was outside their armorclass, or a sidegrade (or at least a much bigger upgrade for another player), etc, just because it raised their gear score, which was damaging to the team as a whole. The peak of its popularity was when I finally had to set explicit loot rules because the previous rule of "don't be a dick" when bidding on loot wasn't cutting it. Previously people had been very good about looking out for each other and being agreeable to making sure gear went to the places we needed it most.

    That said, as with raider.io or achievements or parses, I don't blame tool but rather the community's misuse or overvaluing of said tool. That is always a fault of people's reductionism and desire to distill everything down to a simple ranked number rather than full reviewing the bigger picture. Nor do I fault the raid and group leaders for using these types of tools to try to build the best group possible and increase their odds of success. But I do think that the community does tend to get hyperfocused on the number itself and get lazy about truly evaluating things. Luckily, nowadays we have so many different tools available to us that it's very easy to get an accurate broad picture of where someone is at, from their gear to their experience to their actual throughput in fights.
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