Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[T-34]

Currently the "community" is fixated on r.io for PuG M+ because frankly we don't have a good "quick and dirty" method to evaluate the players who apply for slots in a M+ run. For smooth and successful (as in under time) runs of M+, we all want good players who not only know their class/spec but the dungeon and its nuances. And yeah, skill and gear are also factors as well but because we don't have a standard. We (the community) have resorted to various metrics of our own. From GearScore to achievement linking to r.io, it's all because what we really need is a PvE rating similar to the PvP rating that already exists in WoW..

With the addition of mythic+ data on the armoury we now have the best data we ever had in WoW to make our decisions on whom to invite to our groups.
Could that data be improved? Maybe. But I doubt that Blizzard would make its own PVE-rating-system. I think it suits Blizzard just fine to have the playerbase filter each other out. It saves Blizzard ressources and players get mad at each other instead of getting mad at Blizzard for "gatekeeping".

All this discussion stems from the simple fact that "fun" is something very different for certain groups of players.
My reason to be here in this thread is to argue that one should try to find like-minded players to play with and accept that there are others who do not share ones definition of "fun".
Trying to force players that have different definitions of fun to play together can only lead to misery for both groups.

[Mmid]

You could cheat parses too just as easily by refusing to do raid mechanics. There.

High rio is impossible to cheat. You can't have 4k score and 200 m+ runs and be bad at M+.
You can have legendary parses on Maut and be horrible at M+.

You're comparing two different things completely.

At least you participated on the raid and know how to do damage if you parsed well. A high rio score could just be a carry where you actually did absolutely nothing. I completely disagree with you, I think it's much easier to cheat a rio score because all you have to do is be in the dungeon.

Like, you show up to a high M+ and a mythic raid boss. You do nothing on any of the two scenarios. Your rio score is completely the same as someone who worked their ass off in that M+, while the raid parse will be 0 for the AFKer and 90+ for the one who actually did his job. This is all I've been trying to say here. Therefore I think parses say more than rio-score.

But what you say about VERY high rio and many keys done, is hard to cheat and few people do it, that I agree on.

[shise]

Love it when people blame a tool, addon, or arbitrary number for their failings and shortcomings.

Oh boy.

Classic 12 years old answer.

The problem here is that you need to waste a lot of time doing dungeons to have a high number.
I am an architect, I am busy. But I can do dungeons at high difficulty, don´t need this shit score to tell for me and that is a filter.
It should not exist. My achievements show what I do, that should be enough.

Blizzard is allowing a third party program to override the whole point of achievement points. For that matter, let me use honorbuddy, same shit different color.

[Thor79]

I respect your opinion, but I'm going to disagree. Raider.IO MADE me build my experience across every dungeon before I could really begin to climb. I had to work my way up, "put in my time", so to speak. I'm not super high - I'm like 2.1k rio in multiple specs. And besides, it's just an API call as numerous people have mentioned. People would just find another way. I mean seriously, back in Wrath - I had people make me do 2 minute rotation on the target dummy to prove I could do X dps, or show up for a gear inspection. This at least allows me quick access to groups on my alts - because they see that shiny purple number - which means, again, I put the work in on my main.

There are exceptions to this (how the F do some of these Ragnaros people get 3k rating?? idfk). I have met some absolutely terrible players with 2K+ ratings, but it's MUCH less than I would have if I had to go by gear ilvl, that's for sure. I meet a ton of 479 people who can't do 30k dps, seriously, and stand in everything.

[LanToaster]

It sure sounds like it lol.

Nah, powerplay would be if I would actively tell you to not do it. And like the other one said: "Stomp my Feet on the ground".

If the Healer still heals him, his luck. In the end, I stopped caring about that somewhere in Lichking.
Its more healthy that way. I dont stress myself if other people do annoying stuff.

The thing is, i dont really know how much knowlegde the average Player has about specific Tank skills. I at least have no Idea about the stuff other Tank Classes can do. But for example:
I have a Single taunt, with around 8 seconds CD, that means I can taunt a Single mob. Now, if the DPS pulls a mob Group with 3-4 Mobs, that means I can taunt one.
I have one skill that I can throw that hits 4-5 Mobs, which produces a fair bit of Aggro, (Nowhere Enough to pull stuff from a DPS that goes on it like crazy though) that means: If the DPS goes does his DPS on the stuff he pulled -> He gets the Aggro. If he doesnt, the Healer gets the Aggro, and there we have 2 Scenarios that could happen:
1. My CD is Ready and I can throw something to safe the Healer
2. I have no Skill ready to pull 3-4 Mobs from the Healer, and the Healer might die.

Why should I write or powerplay there? I dont waste a Taunt or any skill for Stupid DDs who are on a Powertrip, and they die. In the end: I can finish almost all Dungeons I do with the a DPS in the Mud.

[VinceVega]

How DARE you. You cant wait with a Pull. It wastes precious Seconds. Who cares about Heal Mana, or Skill Cooldowns. Only DPS matters!

- - - Updated - - -


And this is why we have overall a Tank Shortage, new Tanks get treated like shit and have DPS make their job at which they might not be really used to harder than it should and has to be.

You are right i am going to change my behaviour immediatly

[Wuusah]

Classic 12 years old answer.

The problem here is that you need to waste a lot of time doing dungeons to have a high number.
I am an architect, I am busy. But I can do dungeons at high difficulty, don´t need this shit score to tell for me and that is a filter.
It should not exist. My achievements show what I do, that should be enough.

Blizzard is allowing a third party program to override the whole point of achievement points. For that matter, let me use honorbuddy, same shit different color.

what is the highest difficulty that you did? What achievements do you have? What can you show to a random stranger, who starts a group, to tell him that you know what you are doing? I mean if not r.io, then what can you show? You think achievement POINTS matter?

Could it maybe be that you aren't as good as you think you are?

[Lubefist]

what is the highest difficulty that you did? What achievements do you have? What can you show to a random stranger, who starts a group, to tell him that you know what you are doing? I mean if not r.io, then what can you show? You think achievement POINTS matter?

Could it maybe be that you aren't as good as you think you are?

Not good enough? The dude's an architect cmon.

[Firebert]

I'll give you a scenario, I invite your 470 geared hunter to our +18 run, I look on your armory and I would do that if raider.io didn't exist, see that you have done very little mythic+ or not close enough to the level of our current key and I would kick you. Do you feel better or worse for being invited and kicked, or not invited?

Worse for both. I clearly have the item level requirement, but my character progression is impeded for no good reason.

Do you play the game?

Do you? I'm using a circular argument; players doing M+ get gear based upon their keys completed, key level indicates capability, capability indicates the level of M+ to progress on. Raiding does break this, but as M+ is near-infinitely repeatable and raids are currently 4x per week, I expect a player looking to progress their character to tend to favour M+ over raiding.

In the best case scenario gear would not be a factor and key level would indicate capability and vice-versa in a matchmaking system. I've gone into this in more detail in a previous post.

Also, noone besides yourself has any control over your own progression.

Counterpoint: an example I have already posed. I attempt to join a M+12 group with 450 raider.io score and item level 460; if I get declined to join my progression is impeded for no other reason than community bias. My character is clearly capable of doing the key by way of indicated item level requirement ((2.5*key level)+425.33).

[Bloodyleech]

Counterpoint: an example I have already posed. I attempt to join a M+12 group with 450 raider.io score and item level 460; if I get declined to join my progression is impeded for no other reason than community bias. My character is clearly capable of doing the key by way of indicated item level requirement ((2.5*key level)+425.33).

Your character may be capable to do this keylevel, but you as player aren't.
You need exp. If your score is low, you don't have the necessary exp.
No exp => you are out.
Gear doesn't even matter on higher keys. If you don't know what to kick or cc when, the key is dead. No gear can fix this.

You can say whatever else you want and already did - experience in the important part in M+. There is no way around this.
Rio is absolutely a god send for this experience check.

Funfact: Just because you got a certain ilvl, it doesn't mean you are capable of dealing the least amount of dps needed, neither knowing how to cc or support. I can get almost full 470 without doing ANY dungeons, raids or pvp, just from going into Visions. Doesn't mean I'm able to go into 15s, just because I got 5 ilvl more than the gear that drops their.

[bendvrk]

So whats the best way to get m+ going in shadowland if you didnt play bfa?

I cant show a rio score and saying im a good player wont do much..

[Bloodyleech]

So whats the best way to get m+ going in shadowland if you didnt play bfa?

I cant show a rio score and saying im a good player wont do much..

You have to start @0 like everyone else that doesn't have a premade. Legion or BFA scores don't mean "that" much, except if you are some 4k+ player, but then you'll have a premade anyway.
Get early into the cycle, get M0 gear quickly and hop into keys as soon as they are available.

[Metriss]

So whats the best way to get m+ going in shadowland if you didnt play bfa?

I cant show a rio score and saying im a good player wont do much..

Make your own group.

[Wuusah]

So whats the best way to get m+ going in shadowland if you didnt play bfa?

I cant show a rio score and saying im a good player wont do much..

the way everyone gets it. You play the game and start small with +2s and +3s. Get some equip, get some dungeon experience and then work your way up to eventually do +10s.

Everyone has to do that. We don't just login and get invited to +10s because we had experience in BfA. Experience in one dungeon is meaningless if you go into another dungeon. Experience in one expansion is even more meaningless when you play another expansion.

Worse for both. I clearly have the item level requirement, but my character progression is impeded for no good reason.

It is for a good reason. For the same reason I don't get invited into mythic Ra-den even though I have the necessary ilvl for it. I don't have the experience. My character progression is not impeded because someone declines my attempt to join their group. I am responsible for my character progression. If people decline me with a specific reason, then it is my responsibility to work on that reason and eliminate it. It is my responsibility to improve myself, so that I don't get declined the next time.

This circular argumentation of "I don't get experience because I don't have experience" is utter bullshit. How does anyone else get experience?

[Krakan]

Worse for both. I clearly have the item level requirement, but my character progression is impeded for no good reason.


Do you? I'm using a circular argument; players doing M+ get gear based upon their keys completed, key level indicates capability, capability indicates the level of M+ to progress on. Raiding does break this, but as M+ is near-infinitely repeatable and raids are currently 4x per week, I expect a player looking to progress their character to tend to favour M+ over raiding.

In the best case scenario gear would not be a factor and key level would indicate capability and vice-versa in a matchmaking system. I've gone into this in more detail in a previous post.


Counterpoint: an example I have already posed. I attempt to join a M+12 group with 450 raider.io score and item level 460; if I get declined to join my progression is impeded for no other reason than community bias. My character is clearly capable of doing the key by way of indicated item level requirement ((2.5*key level)+425.33).

You kind of highlighted the issue with free gear. While you ilv is higher then anything you will get at your experience level you are not yet ready to push into content that is now rewarding for you.

[skorgg]

So whats the best way to get m+ going in shadowland if you didnt play bfa?

I cant show a rio score and saying im a good player wont do much..

Start by playing the game and spamming dungeons. It's a fresh start. People complaining about how hard it is to find groups are just complaining. It is easy for all three roles to find groups at the start of an expansion. If you are a DPS and start having issues, create your own groups. I used to do that when I swapped to a warlock for a while and had no issues filling groups within 10 minutes.

You cant wait with a Pull. It wastes precious Seconds. Who cares about Heal Mana, or Skill Cooldowns. Only DPS matters!

And this is why we have overall a Tank Shortage, new Tanks get treated like shit and have DPS make their job at which they might not be really used to harder than it should and has to be.

There is no shortage of tanks. I've never had issues finding a tank when I swap to heals or DPS.

I've co-tanked with a lot of people in the last few years. None of them feel like there has ever been a shortage. Sure, there may be a "shortage" if you are trying to find one for a normal or heroic dungeon or possibly low M+ keys. If you are a tank and you actually know how to play your class, you aren't going to waste time doing shit like easy/trivial content and finding groups via the LFR or Dungeon Finder. You are already being invited to more rewarding content by groups who actually like your skills. You already have a red carpet rolled out waiting for you to log in. You will get everything you could ever want.

But yea, tanks are plentiful. Finding an open spot in a raid guild as a tank is competitive and difficult. Look how many people try to get tank spots in raid guilds: there are quite a few based on the recruitment boards/forums.

I have a Single taunt, with around 8 seconds CD, that means I can taunt a Single mob. Now, if the DPS pulls a mob Group with 3-4 Mobs, that means I can taunt one.
I have one skill that I can throw that hits 4-5 Mobs, which produces a fair bit of Aggro, (Nowhere Enough to pull stuff from a DPS that goes on it like crazy though) that means: If the DPS goes does his DPS on the stuff he pulled -> He gets the Aggro. If he doesnt, the Healer gets the Aggro, and there we have 2 Scenarios that could happen:
1. My CD is Ready and I can throw something to safe the Healer
2. I have no Skill ready to pull 3-4 Mobs from the Healer, and the Healer might die.

Why should I write or powerplay there? I dont waste a Taunt or any skill for Stupid DDs who are on a Powertrip, and they die. In the end: I can finish almost all Dungeons I do with the a DPS in the Mud.

Sounds to me like the real issue is: you
1) You don't know how to press more than two buttons and seem to believe that only two skills generate threat?
2) You don't seem to care enough about your group/raid to push your character's defensive role (which your spec is designed to do)
3) You seem to have a superiority complex which shows you have no respect for the other 3 members of your group asking the healer to just not heal 1 person. You're selfish and slowing down your dungeon run because of your stupid ass mentality.

I've legit never had threat issues in the last few expansions. I have raided mythic on all but DK and I'd imagine it isn't much different for our DK brothers.

Also, anyone with your mentality is a fucking plague to the community. Get off your throne and actually learn to be a team player.


to the mod: I know, just do it already.
Infracted

[LanToaster]

So whats the best way to get m+ going in shadowland if you didnt play bfa?

I cant show a rio score and saying im a good player wont do much..

Easy, as you dont have any gear for High Mythic+ Dungons anyway, you start with low dungeons, and then you get a Score Normaly.

[Garymorilix]

At least you participated on the raid and know how to do damage if you parsed well. A high rio score could just be a carry where you actually did absolutely nothing. I completely disagree with you, I think it's much easier to cheat a rio score because all you have to do is be in the dungeon.

Like, you show up to a high M+ and a mythic raid boss. You do nothing on any of the two scenarios. Your rio score is completely the same as someone who worked their ass off in that M+, while the raid parse will be 0 for the AFKer and 90+ for the one who actually did his job. This is all I've been trying to say here. Therefore I think parses say more than rio-score.

But what you say about VERY high rio and many keys done, is hard to cheat and few people do it, that I agree on.

If you afk thru high M+ there ain't no way it is completed in time OR even completed at all.
Your arguement just doesn't stand.

The longer over time you are the less points you get. So even if 4 ppl carry your afk ass thru a +20 in 2 hours you will get no score at all.

If you have a timed key you probably have participated in it. You seem to think getting keys is just fking thru them. What keys are you doing? +8?

[Captain Douchebag]

Counterpoint: an example I have already posed. I attempt to join a M+12 group with 450 raider.io score and item level 460; if I get declined to join my progression is impeded for no other reason than community bias. My character is clearly capable of doing the key by way of indicated item level requirement ((2.5*key level)+425.33).

First off, the score given in your example is very low to attempt to join +12 groups. A problem easily fixed by building up your score by doing lower keys, like everybody else does whenever a new major patch arrives.

Your progression in this case is only impeded if you begin with the assumption that the group you sign up for, owes you an invite for simply signing up and having the required ilvl. They don't. It's their key and their group, and they are not impeding your progress by declining you, as you are not in any way entitled to said progress or their time. Again, nothing is stopping you from starting your own group with your own key on the line, or simply trying to sign up for other groups which takes no more than a few seconds.

On the last part. I kinda' already adressed this in my first response to you, which you left out. But your character being capable of doing a given key, is vastly different from the player of said character being capable. The player is the thing people attempt to evaluate through things such as raider.io, because that is ultimately the most important factor. Gear is almost completely meaningless if the player doesn't play his/her role right or has no experience with the weekly affixes in a given dungeon. I've lost count of how many times I've been in groups in the 15-20 range with say a 475+ dps, who is close to the tank in overall damage, or barely use their interrupts, or dies to avoidable damage while also having their defensives ready (hunters dying to dumb things without even popping turtle is one of the most frequent examples).

Ilvl does not in any way mean the player behind the character is capable, especially given how absurdly easy it is to get decent gear now.

[LanToaster]

There is no shortage of tanks. I've never had issues finding a tank when I swap to heals or DPS.

Your single Experience is all encompassing obviously, its not that right now at prime time 3/4 of the Groups in the tool are missing a Tank, as for everything else you said, Its sad that you can only Insult people. I have nothing more to say apart from you have no Idea what Content I do, How Successful I am, or If I am "already being invited to more rewarding content by groups who actually like your skills".

Letting People die who dont follow the GroupLeader doesnt tell you much about anything.