Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Wuusah]

I don't know what to tell you then. It's true. Someone else commented that they found similar issues in their mythic guild earlier in the thread. It's a different set of knowledge to raiding, and if you don't do it regularly you won't be that good at it. I've just about scraped through Keystone Master with corruptions this season, but even then I was usually among the worst in the group.

Firebert doesn't believe in player skill. There are no good or bad players. There is only good or bad equip. If you have good equip, then you're able to do the content. It's like Firebert doesn't understand the difference between what a character can do and what a player can do.

[Wuusah]

I said the problem is that it’s still rewarding to run a dungeon that you ridiculously outgear

Can you elaborate on that? In what way is it rewarding to do content that you outgear?

[razorpax]

blizzard made gearscore an ingame thing

[Twdft]

I’m mostly focused on the feeling, and to me it feels a lot better to bang your head against super hard content until you get it right or give up, than it is to do something that’s easier but with very limited margin for errors/wipes due to time limits.

That's actually what you get when you push keys.

You should try to find a steady group to do mythic+ with, you'll eventually get to a key level that is super hard and you have to decide if you want to progress through to get another key or give up and go the same dungeon a level lower.

[WhirlwindTV]

This right here would be me. I dont hate it though, just dont like it, yet I understand why its there. I just want to do one dungeon per week to get my weekly chest for the highest ilvl reward as to do my part of gearing up for mythic raiding. And its not that I dont have the desire to build IO, its just that raiding is my focus and as a family dad I dont have to time to do do both progress raiding and climb the rioladder. Ah... to be young again and have all the time in the world...

Yep, exactly. My focus was PvP. I do the weekly m+ for the box reward. In S2/3 i'd specifically target Underrot to get Titanforge rolls for the Fist Weapon and hope that the tank would get an unneeded Sporepods. I didn't need loot from elsewhere, or if I did it would have been a socket/titanforge roll on a 1/7 drop. So my alt wouldn't have completions in all the dungeons and it was frustrating beyond measure that people wouldn't look at my last 5 runs all being +10 in time.

[MatPandaZ]

It's incredible the level of entitlement in this thread. to the people complaining that they don't know the dungeons and saying they can't time a 10+... GO LOWER. Less affix's. You seem to think you can level to 120 and then do +10s? They tier the affix's in for a reason! Jumping in at +10 is jumping in at the deep end. If you are complaining about other people in the group not being experienced enough for the +10, congratulations, in their eyes you are now an elitist jerk. few tips from someone who would have loved to have seen RIO gone in legion, who then started pushing higher keys in BFA and understood the usefulness of RIO

- Push your own god damn key.
- Use RIO to screen applicants. You don't have to use the score, but have they timed somewhere near that level on that key.
- KEEP AT IT. Ok so BFA is almost done, might be a bit of a waste at this point to learn the dungeons to the level you need to to go higher, but in SL keep doing keys.
- Learn the dungeons. Make mental notes of what seems to be bigly damage and start stunning, interrupting.
- Play your class to the max. You're a DPS pala? Cool. Are you making sure you are bopping, insta full healing (sorry name eludes me this morning), stunning, taunting, CCing, interrupting?
- Don't think of a smegged key as a waste of time. What did you learn? Use that in the next run.
- Don't get sucked into abusive chat. It will tilt you, it will tilt them and the key will fall apart very soon.
- Spam the shit out of lower keys.

If RIO wasn't around people would be demanding achievements, they will demand to meet you and check your gear, they will ask random questions about mechanics. If RIO wasn't around what certainly won't happen is the community won't just go 'oh well, I guess I'll just start inviting anyone'. Stop thinking you should get upgrades in every M+ you do. I out geared +15s weeks into the patch, asides from the odd trinket or a lucky corruption there was jack shit for me in M+. I did it because i enjoyed the challenge.

Honestly it's like capping 120 and start moaning that you don't get invited to n'zoth mythic kills. Put the fkn work in. I say this as someone who comfortably got the +15 achievement months ago. As a Warlock. Only in PUGs. Completely unguilded.

Finally, I know I'm repeating myself but all of this is totally irrelevant if you just PUSH YOUR OWN KEY. (and i give it a handful of failed keys before you are using RIO to check the experience of the people you invite).

Finally all of this is TOTALLY irrelevant

[Wuusah]

It's incredible the level of entitlement in this thread. to the people complaining that they don't know the dungeons and saying they can't time a 10+... GO LOWER. Less affix's. You seem to think you can level to 120 and then do +10s? They tier the affix's in for a reason! Jumping in at +10 is jumping in at the deep end. If you are complaining about other people in the group not being experienced enough for the +10, congratulations, in their eyes you are now an elitist jerk. few tips from someone who would have loved to have seen RIO gone in legion, who then started pushing higher keys in BFA and understood the usefulness of RIO

- Push your own god damn key.
- Use RIO to screen applicants. You don't have to use the score, but have they timed somewhere near that level on that key.
- KEEP AT IT. Ok so BFA is almost done, might be a bit of a waste at this point to learn the dungeons to the level you need to to go higher, but in SL keep doing keys.
- Learn the dungeons. Make mental notes of what seems to be bigly damage and start stunning, interrupting.
- Play your class to the max. You're a DPS pala? Cool. Are you making sure you are bopping, insta full healing (sorry name eludes me this morning), stunning, taunting, CCing, interrupting?
- Don't think of a smegged key as a waste of time. What did you learn? Use that in the next run.
- Don't get sucked into abusive chat. It will tilt you, it will tilt them and the key will fall apart very soon.
- Spam the shit out of lower keys.

If RIO wasn't around people would be demanding achievements, they will demand to meet you and check your gear, they will ask random questions about mechanics. If RIO wasn't around what certainly won't happen is the community won't just go 'oh well, I guess I'll just start inviting anyone'. Stop thinking you should get upgrades in every M+ you do. I out geared +15s weeks into the patch, asides from the odd trinket or a lucky corruption there was jack shit for me in M+. I did it because i enjoyed the challenge.

Honestly it's like capping 120 and start moaning that you don't get invited to n'zoth mythic kills. Put the fkn work in. I say this as someone who comfortably got the +15 achievement months ago. As a Warlock. Only in PUGs. Completely unguilded.

Finally, I know I'm repeating myself but all of this is totally irrelevant if you just PUSH YOUR OWN KEY. (and i give it a handful of failed keys before you are using RIO to check the experience of the people you invite).

Finally all of this is TOTALLY irrelevant

Great tips, but there is one big problem with them: They sound like effort. People who complain don't want to put in effort. Just look at the ridiculous solutions in this thread. Make M+ with LFD making the group. Make M+ with AI bots as teammates.
People here don't want to put in effort. They get declined because of their lack of experience and instead of realizing that they themselves are the problem and need to work on themselves, they want the system to be changed so that they cannot be declined anymore.

Complainers think they'd finish those keys if they got the chance to prove themselves but they never get to prove themselves because those toxic elitists don't invite them and don't go into their groups if they start one. It's such a bullshit excuse. Somehow it's impossible to push keys when so many people manage to push keys. It's simple laziness and entitlement.

Honestly, I wish Blizzard would make a LFD version of M+. I wonder what the complaints would then be if all the decent players still used rio and went in premade and the LFD players constantly failed easy keys...

[Alroxas]

So whats the best way to get m+ going in shadowland if you didnt play bfa?

I cant show a rio score and saying im a good player wont do much..

Don't worry at the start of SL, r.io scores are reset (new season after all) and we're all going to be rebuilding our r.io scores.

- - - Updated - - -

They should just make mythic+ queuable up till 15's based on internal scores or actual gearscores. the only reason we have raider.Io is because you as the player have to make your own group. if that person was already in the group though you wouldnt kick them and it would be the same as doing heroic dungeons. it also wouldnt be so choosy on who gets to go and who dosent. the Hardest dungeons I've ever done were cata heroics and even they were queueable. it made everyone play better as you did everything you could to complete them. whomever you get in your group your not gonna kick someone unless they d/c or afk. M+ dungeons are only really required up to level 15. anything after that is just for fun.

Yeah no. For all the pros/cons of r.io, M+ should NOT be queueble. Having zero control of group comp is going to lead to more frustration than success.

[Captain Douchebag]

Honestly, I wish Blizzard would make a LFD version of M+. I wonder what the complaints would then be if all the decent players still used rio and went in premade and the LFD players constantly failed easy keys...

I'm gonna' take a wild guess and say they would complain about m+ being too hard and cry for a nerf.

[Alroxas]

You absolutely can’t ignore the timer. The vast majority of 11-14 runs, in my experience, don’t make it.

And about waiting for CDs... I don’t care. I really don’t. It’s not an insurmountable problem either. At +20 you can have all the timers you want for the truly hardcore. I will never get to that level.

My experience with m+ came when I resubbed in March. I tried to do the usual gearing thing but m+ was an absolute shitshow. I didn’t know the dungeons and there was no way to learn without just endlessly burning up keys (no, watching a video that tells you every mechanic doesn’t work), getting told I sucked, then going back in again.

To be fair, the game has always been like that for people coming back but m+ takes it to a new level.

So my proposal is no timers until +16. Would keep both of us happy.

First off, (and others will agree) that without any experience, you the player are a liability to the group if you don't have a baseline knowledge of the dungeon. Part of the cyclic grind of doing dungeons in lower keys, building up your r.io score, is to gain that experience. Thus when in a higher level key, you know what to expect and what to do. Granted my issues with r.io stems from the community abuse of it. At the start of the season, it's relatively easy to build your score up. Everyone is in the same boat so they are more lax with r.io score requirements but by mid-season, the community gets more obsessed with r.io score. Oh you don't have a 1k+/2k+ score? Forget about even applying, you'll be rejected straight up.

Also the other issue tangential issue is that M+ is semi designed based off the MDI. BFA's M+ seemed designed to counter the mass-pull and kite strategies used in Legion's MDIs and as we move into SL, we see even more restrictions on AoE so that even pulling multiple packs is going to be inefficient but alas that's a different conversation altogether.

- - - Updated - - -

However, IO is quite accurate. It's annoying, but its the best system the community has ever come up with imho.

Sort of but only in a group kind of way. For instance, can the r.io score tell you that a player is good at interrupts? Sure it might show that a player has completed a set of dungeons at a certain key level in time but not standing in fire, proper use of LoS, etc etc.

We assume that a player with a high r.io score and lots of +x dungeons completed under their belt means that they are a good player but they could have been a shitty player but with great teammates that put up with them.

I think that's one of the distinctions between r.io and logs. And yeah it's true that players can pad their numbers for logs, but logs also allow review of other factors, like avoidable damage taken, interrupts, etc.

[klogaroth]

At the core, people are arguing that they are upset that 20 is a greater number than 2.

Most people applying to a group will not get in. Regardless of what addons are or are not used. Hide ilvl, remove raider.io, delete achievements, fine. 18 people still will not get in for the 2 DPS spots in that group they're queued for.

Depending on the key 20 queued for 2 spots may be a massive underestimate

[Eli85]

The people bagging on raider.IO ... I don't think they understand just how much of a quality of life upgrade it is for those of us that PUG. I absolutely love being able to quickly and easily see the highest level dungeon someone has completed and what they have done with the dungeon they're advertising for. I get so many less stinker groups because I only join groups where I can determine everyone can actually do it. Sometimes dungeons go bad, it happens. But far less bad happens than when I didn't use the add-on.

Maybe if the average WoW player who PUGs wasn't so miserably bad, this wouldn't be needed. But they are. This add-on, I don't want to say it's needed, but it's close to it. It makes pugging M+ enjoyable. Without it, I'd just struggle to a +15 and forget about it. With the add-on, I'm doing M+ dungeons regularly.

[Orwell7]

It's either R.Io or something other, community-driven tool, OR Blizz can implement an MMR system of some sorts for PvE.
But I wouldn't trust that Blizzard can do this.

R.Io should step up:
-make it a log-analyzer tool like Details
-the community shall define what earns good points and what earns bad points
-it can even play with our dopamine reward system with flashy achievements and the like, players love that

Good points: interrupting a non-lethal spell can award 1 point. Interrupting a deadly ability can award 10 points.
It can even analyze per-encounter: combat start is logged. Mobs can be identified. The most dangerous trash mob awards 10 points - if it has 100 hp, all 3 dps should do 33-33 damage to it and everyone gets 10 points. It can even look at your overall/prio damage and award points based on how great you were on switching to that dangerous add.

Bad points: missing an interrupt awards bad points to the WHOLE team (ofc it can see if you have it on CD or not, logs have it all). Standing in shit awards bad points to you only. Not doing your share of the damage to an important add gets you negative points, etc.

With a system like this, you cannot be boosted to high rating AND sit there doing "your" content. This rewards good play and punishes bad play and it can be done to be "fair", because it's community driven.
Of course it needs refinement and fine-tuning of the logic behind it, but this needs to be implemented.

[pathebaker]

Don't worry at the start of SL, r.io scores are reset (new season after all) and we're all going to be rebuilding our r.io scores.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah no. For all the pros/cons of r.io, M+ should NOT be queueble. Having zero control of group comp is going to lead to more frustration than success.

You say no but let me ask you and maybe everyone else this or to people who do them regularly. Are they hard up to 15's? I've asked myself this many times. I think at the start of the expansion sure but once we get to the middle or the end theirs some groups doing 25+'s. I'm not saying they don't deserve to be there I'm saying that for blizzard its the same thing as why they made LFR. Because a nice part of the game and a hefty chunk of content that an average player doesn't get to experience and they invest so much time into them. I also think that people wont get better if we as a community continue to bar everyone from doing them unless they run with friends or in a guild. make it queue-able to 15 with internal scores like gear and exp etc and all of a sudden people are willing to run them infinitely. Take away key depletion. you fail your key drops maybe 2 levels or more idk but then it eliminates the worry. if you want to go higher than a +15 you as the player have to build your own group but you as the player get your weekly done.

the problem is simple. some people get the shiny box at the end of the week and some people don't. with this fix everyone does and its completely on the player whether they do or not. not based on whether some randoms decided you weren't good enough to go.

And everyone needs to stop saying join a guild or get your friends. That's a bad argument imo because that's why people are stuck in the situation as is. They don't want to join a guild because the "mean ol guild master and officers" and they don't play with their friends much so it makes things difficult.

[Otimus]

Great tips, but there is one big problem with them: They sound like effort. People who complain don't want to put in effort. Just look at the ridiculous solutions in this thread. Make M+ with LFD making the group. Make M+ with AI bots as teammates.
People here don't want to put in effort. They get declined because of their lack of experience and instead of realizing that they themselves are the problem and need to work on themselves, they want the system to be changed so that they cannot be declined anymore.

Complainers think they'd finish those keys if they got the chance to prove themselves but they never get to prove themselves because those toxic elitists don't invite them and don't go into their groups if they start one. It's such a bullshit excuse. Somehow it's impossible to push keys when so many people manage to push keys. It's simple laziness and entitlement.

Honestly, I wish Blizzard would make a LFD version of M+. I wonder what the complaints would then be if all the decent players still used rio and went in premade and the LFD players constantly failed easy keys...

At the very least, Mythic 0 should be queue-able. It's pretty easy (lame, but easy) to understand why + isn't something you can queue for. That, or just rid of Mythic 0's as a concept and fold them back into heroics. They're not difficult enough to require a premade group, IMHO, and if you could get a foot in the door of what you need to run Mythic+'s from doing something you can queue for, more people would probably be willing to step out and try Mythic+'s with premade groups anyways. It'd be pretty much a net win for all sides.

[Wuusah]

You say no but let me ask you and maybe everyone else this or to people who do them regularly. Are they hard up to 15's? I've asked myself this many times. I think at the start of the expansion sure but once we get to the middle or the end theirs some groups doing 25+'s. I'm not saying they don't deserve to be there I'm saying that for blizzard its the same thing as why they made LFR. Because a nice part of the game and a hefty chunk of content that an average player doesn't get to experience and they invest so much time into them. I also think that people wont get better if we as a community continue to bar everyone from doing them unless they run with friends or in a guild. make it queue-able to 15 with internal scores like gear and exp etc and all of a sudden people are willing to run them infinitely. Take away key depletion. you fail your key drops maybe 2 levels or more idk but then it eliminates the worry. if you want to go higher than a +15 you as the player have to build your own group but you as the player get your weekly done.

the problem is simple. some people get the shiny box at the end of the week and some people don't. with this fix everyone does and its completely on the player whether they do or not. not based on whether some randoms decided you weren't good enough to go.

And everyone needs to stop saying join a guild or get your friends. That's a bad argument imo because that's why people are stuck in the situation as is. They don't want to join a guild because the "mean ol guild master and officers" and they don't play with their friends much so it makes things difficult.

Do you really think people who don’t get to finish +15s right now would be able to do them if they were queueable? Just because some people finish 25s does not mean 15 is easy content. 15s are forgiving to some extent, but you need to understand boss and trash mechanics to beat the timer. You need to really know the dungeon to beat a +15 and you need to know your class/spec. A +15 is forgiving enough so that some mistakes can be fixed by having an experienced healer which you might not get with random players put in a group together.
You really think you’re gonna get quality players in your queues? Players who know what they are doing? You think players who couldn’t be bothered to put in enough effort to get into a premade group will bother enough to communicate and pull their weight in the dungeon?

a premade team that plays a lot together with players who did those dungeons hundreds of times is able to go way beyond +15s. But even for a pug that uses rio to choose their players a +15 is decently challenging. For a group that is put together by a random queue, this will be extremely hard.

And here is the hard truth: the weekly chest is not meant as a login reward. If you can’t be bothered to put in the effort to do one +15 dungeon then you don’t deserve the shiny loot in it. It is not a thing of impossibility to do it in pug groups. It is not impossible to start from the bottom and grind your way up. The only person who stands in your way is you. Not the people who aren’t inviting you. Your mentality to give up and complain is what is standing in your way. A queue won’t help you. It will just move the problem somewhere else. Now you get rejected, with a queue you’ll get players who always immediately leave after a wipe. You’re gonna wait for half an hour for a tank and then someone will make one mistake and the run is over. Because that’s how people are in random queues. Just look at the revolving door that is N’Zoth LFR

Edit: also why do you think people get declined? It’s because of two reasons:
1. They want to jump ahead in experience. Why do you want to do a +15 if you didn’t do a +13-14 in that dungeon yet? Work your way up!
2. you are playing a role that everyone else is playing as well: dps. When 30 dps try to join one group then 90% get declined, no matter how good they are. But a queue doesn’t change anything in that regard. You’ll just wait half an hour for a tank.


Edit:

At the very least, Mythic 0 should be queue-able. It's pretty easy (lame, but easy) to understand why + isn't something you can queue for. That, or just rid of Mythic 0's as a concept and fold them back into heroics. They're not difficult enough to require a premade group, IMHO, and if you could get a foot in the door of what you need to run Mythic+'s from doing something you can queue for, more people would probably be willing to step out and try Mythic+'s with premade groups anyways. It'd be pretty much a net win for all sides.

I don’t think M0 is that easy. It’s easy now when you outgear it so much but at the start of the expansion it’s not so easy. Not super difficult, but not something I’d expect random groups to beat on average. Once it’s outgeared, who cares.
Look at it as a test run. Isn’t it a good thing to have a baseline untimed difficulty mode that asks of you to get out of your shell and manually look for a group? The stakes are low, the content is not too difficult and it’s just a great tutorial to use the group finder for.

[Bloodyleech]

You say no but let me ask you and maybe everyone else this or to people who do them regularly. Are they hard up to 15's? I've asked myself this many times. I think at the start of the expansion sure but once we get to the middle or the end theirs some groups doing 25+'s. I'm not saying they don't deserve to be there I'm saying that for blizzard its the same thing as why they made LFR. Because a nice part of the game and a hefty chunk of content that an average player doesn't get to experience and they invest so much time into them. I also think that people wont get better if we as a community continue to bar everyone from doing them unless they run with friends or in a guild. make it queue-able to 15 with internal scores like gear and exp etc and all of a sudden people are willing to run them infinitely. Take away key depletion. you fail your key drops maybe 2 levels or more idk but then it eliminates the worry. if you want to go higher than a +15 you as the player have to build your own group but you as the player get your weekly done.

the problem is simple. some people get the shiny box at the end of the week and some people don't. with this fix everyone does and its completely on the player whether they do or not. not based on whether some randoms decided you weren't good enough to go.

And everyone needs to stop saying join a guild or get your friends. That's a bad argument imo because that's why people are stuck in the situation as is. They don't want to join a guild because the "mean ol guild master and officers" and they don't play with their friends much so it makes things difficult.

This contradicts itself. Do you even know how it works?
A depletion is a downgrade by 1.
No one can tell you if keys are "hard". It's subjective. If you are a good player, they are not hard at all till 15. They will never be hard then. They will just be less forgiving and way tighter.
Automated LFG M+ would increase the participation, yes - but there will be way way waaaay more runs that will fail. And the more runs fail, the less GOOD people will use the automated LFG tool => even more failed runs.
If you want to participate in M+, just use the premade tool like everyone else.
If you aren't invited because you don't have the exp that you NEED at some key levels, get more exp. How? Do lower keys, like EVERYONE else did before.

@Wuusah Thanks bud, I'm completely on your side.

[deenman]

Seems rather arrogant to say that, when I know for a fact I'm better than 95% of the WoW community at just about everything due to experience. My score is likely non-existent because I don't run them, but if I do, I'm going to crush everyone else in the group.

yeah dude,im sure you that doesnt ever do m+ will crush all those high IO scrubs that push keys every day

on a more serious note,wuusah guy is just being silly,i also dont do m+ and wile im not gr8 at them and wouldnt be able to push,i can do +15 just fine,but if i was declined because of my score it would just be annoying,people worship that score and stop thinking rationaly,but to be fair i main a healer and almost always get instant invited for 15's

[Bloodyleech]

yeah dude,im sure you that doesnt ever do m+ will crush all those high IO scrubs that push keys every day

on a more serious note,wuusah guy is just being silly,i also dont do m+ and wile im not gr8 at them and wouldnt be able to push,i can do +15 just fine,but if i was declined because of my score it would just be annoying,people worship that score and stop thinking rationaly,but to be fair i main a healer and almost always get instant invited for 15's

Your score can't be to bad if you get invited into 15s. Even healers and tanks have hard-checks. I will never ever invite a tank or healer below a reasonable knowledge of the dungeon. At least a timed 10 is required, especially for tanks.
For dps: why should I invite people with less experience that could deplete a key? If you can't bother getting a minimum amount of experience first, it's on you /shrug

[deenman]

Your score can't be to bad if you get invited into 15s. Even healers and tanks have hard-checks. I will never ever invite a tank or healer below a reasonable knowledge of the dungeon. At least a timed 10 is required, especially for tanks.

ofc it can,i have only done 2-3 dungeons as 15,the others didnt even enter,ofc my score is going to be extremly shit