Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Wuusah]

yeah dude,im sure you that doesnt ever do m+ will crush all those high IO scrubs that push keys every day

on a more serious note,wuusah guy is just being silly,i also dont do m+ and wile im not gr8 at them and wouldnt be able to push,i can do +15 just fine,but if i was declined because of my score it would just be annoying,people worship that score and stop thinking rationaly,but to be fair i main a healer and almost always get instant invited for 15's

It really depends what state of the game we are talking about. Corruptions made it way, way easier. Especially now with >100 corruption resistance. But it’s the end of the expansion and it’s very likely never going to be that crazy again. Without corruption, +15 is challenging. I wouldn’t want to do that with completely random players, ever.

[Bloodyleech]

ofc it can,i have only done 2-3 dungeons as 15,the others didnt even enter,ofc my score is going to be extremly shit

For some people some 15s in time are fine, you got kinda lucky then.

[Krimzin]

yeah

There is a very simple reason, why stuff like raider.IO, warcraftlogs or dps meters will go nowhere and exists until the last Blizz server is offline forever:

Blizz controls what data is accessible. And Blizz will continue to make that data accessible, so that all above stuff can exist. why ? because it is good for Blizzard, when they exist.

Just think about a world without dps meters. magically the boss is down, after a few tries, after enough ppl played/did their shit right. a fight where

- no one knows who did right
- or did not
- no one knows which penis is larger than his own
- no one knows who the noob is
- no „curved only 480 item level“
- no blaming
- no battling
- no competition between players
- no reason to improve, because it is not seen anyway

in the moment you prevent all of this, you kill the most massive carrot on a stick WoW ever had.

and plz dont tell me, for the majority of players in 2020, a dead boss (regardless how) is the top priority, and everything else is uninteressting. that socialized mmorpg times are long over.

Blizz has ZERO interests imo, that raider.IO go away.

There are some games today that ban Damage meters and have huge populations.. FFXIV. They have one that you can run outside of game but its a bannable offense if you are caught so no one talks about it and no way in hell do you call anyone out in game for low dps. They have content that is as hard if not harder than WoW content and they manage to kill bosses. So do use the, players have to have it to kill bosses, it doesn't hold water.

I played Everquest for many years and we somehow manage to kill bosses without DPS meters and without voice chat..

DPS meters and Raider.io are nothing more than a way to judge players. Nothing makes a mediocre player feel better about himself/herself more than outdoing someone on the meters.

What makes it even funnier, is that those same mediocre players ALWAYS migrate to whatever the Meta class of that expansion is. For SL, you are going to see more Warlocks than ever, because they are the new Meta class.

[Novaice]

realistically they need to get rid of the overall rIO score or recalculate it and base it on the dungeon that your trying to run.

[Bloodyleech]

realistically they need to get rid of the overall rIO score or recalculate it and base it on the dungeon that your trying to run.

It already works like this.
You always see the highest level done on the key that is looked at/for. It's just some peoples fault for only looking on overall score instead of the dungeon that you want people for.

[Wuusah]

There are some games today that ban Damage meters and have huge populations.. FFXIV. They have one that you can run outside of game but its a bannable offense if you are caught so no one talks about it and no way in hell do you call anyone out in game for low dps. They have content that is as hard if not harder than WoW content and they manage to kill bosses. So do use the, players have to have it to kill bosses, it doesn't hold water.

I played Everquest for many years and we somehow manage to kill bosses without DPS meters and without voice chat..

DPS meters and Raider.io are nothing more than a way to judge players. Nothing makes a mediocre player feel better about himself/herself more than outdoing someone on the meters.

What makes it even funnier, is that those same mediocre players ALWAYS migrate to whatever the Meta class of that expansion is. For SL, you are going to see more Warlocks than ever, because they are the new Meta class.

Sorry to burst your bubble but FF14 has no difficult dungeon content. And for raid bosses, those who consistently beat them before they overgear it either use a parser, play with someone who uses a parser or use fflogs. People who underperform also get kicked from groups all the time because they are holding the group back from a kill.

Also raids are not in the queue. Just like M+ it’s only premade. And FF14 is a way way WAY more miserable experience when you come in late. Because everyone who is decent did it in the first week and in the second week they don’t play with players who haven’t beaten it anymore. The quality of teammates drops drastically week after week. Rio is a thousand times better because it’s not binary (either you beat it before or you didn’t)

[Krimzin]

Sorry to burst your bubble but FF14 has no difficult dungeon content. And for raid bosses, those who consistently beat them before they overgear it either use a parser, play with someone who uses a parser or use fflogs. People who underperform also get kicked from groups all the time because they are holding the group back from a kill.

Also raids are not in the queue. Just like M+ it’s only premade. And FF14 is a way way WAY more miserable experience when you come in late. Because everyone who is decent did it in the first week and in the second week they don’t play with players who haven’t beaten it anymore. The quality of teammates drops drastically week after week. Rio is a thousand times better because it’s not binary (either you beat it before or you didn’t)

First off. Show me where I said Dungeon. I didn't. I said bosses. As in Raid Bosses.
My context was about Damage meters with a small part of Raider.io
So you are incorrect.

Less than 40% of all players have cleared Savage Content. So ya, not so much. There is content that is difficult. I can not tell you how it compares to Mythic Raids from WoW, because Ive not raided Savage in FFXIV.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQhnJYXX...name=4096x4096

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Now introducing Dungeonscore!

[ydraw]

The reasons gearscore was bad had nothing to do with elitism.

1. Gearscore didn't really give much indication of experience, since PvP gear, which was obtainable without ever zoning into a raid, gave the same or equivalent score.
2. Gearscore actively lagged and disconnected players.

raider.io is the opposite of gearscore. It ignores a player's gear and literally tells you what experience they have. It's the WoW equivalent of a CV. The only real issue with raider.io is the overall score which shouldn't exist or at least shouldn't be displayed so prominently, since overall score is not really related to specific experience with that dungeon.

[pathebaker]

Do you really think people who don’t get to finish +15s right now would be able to do them if they were queueable? Just because some people finish 25s does not mean 15 is easy content. 15s are forgiving to some extent, but you need to understand boss and trash mechanics to beat the timer. You need to really know the dungeon to beat a +15 and you need to know your class/spec. A +15 is forgiving enough so that some mistakes can be fixed by having an experienced healer which you might not get with random players put in a group together.
You really think you’re gonna get quality players in your queues? Players who know what they are doing? You think players who couldn’t be bothered to put in enough effort to get into a premade group will bother enough to communicate and pull their weight in the dungeon?

a premade team that plays a lot together with players who did those dungeons hundreds of times is able to go way beyond +15s. But even for a pug that uses rio to choose their players a +15 is decently challenging. For a group that is put together by a random queue, this will be extremely hard.

And here is the hard truth: the weekly chest is not meant as a login reward. If you can’t be bothered to put in the effort to do one +15 dungeon then you don’t deserve the shiny loot in it. It is not a thing of impossibility to do it in pug groups. It is not impossible to start from the bottom and grind your way up. The only person who stands in your way is you. Not the people who aren’t inviting you. Your mentality to give up and complain is what is standing in your way. A queue won’t help you. It will just move the problem somewhere else. Now you get rejected, with a queue you’ll get players who always immediately leave after a wipe. You’re gonna wait for half an hour for a tank and then someone will make one mistake and the run is over. Because that’s how people are in random queues. Just look at the revolving door that is N’Zoth LFR

Edit: also why do you think people get declined? It’s because of two reasons:
1. They want to jump ahead in experience. Why do you want to do a +15 if you didn’t do a +13-14 in that dungeon yet? Work your way up!
2. you are playing a role that everyone else is playing as well: dps. When 30 dps try to join one group then 90% get declined, no matter how good they are. But a queue doesn’t change anything in that regard. You’ll just wait half an hour for a tank.


Edit:



I don’t think M0 is that easy. It’s easy now when you outgear it so much but at the start of the expansion it’s not so easy. Not super difficult, but not something I’d expect random groups to beat on average. Once it’s outgeared, who cares.
Look at it as a test run. Isn’t it a good thing to have a baseline untimed difficulty mode that asks of you to get out of your shell and manually look for a group? The stakes are low, the content is not too difficult and it’s just a great tutorial to use the group finder for.

So in my orginal post i said that their should be internal scores. Like normal you should be able to queue and lets say for example kings rest. it should just have a thing for +7 based on if/how many times you've run kings rest and your gearscore and you should be able to do the dungeon no problem. I didnt say they were easy but i also dont think they are overally hard but again as you said subjective. I do think you should grind to get there. i think you should have to do that +1,2,3 etc a few times all the way up before the game decides that your ready for the big+15 that your trying to complete. I do think you should have to work for that chest at the end of the week And when you do get there you should feel accomplished that you made it. To your exact points 1. i dont think you should skip i think you should work for it.

2. Where we differ tho is how people should get there. Do you play a surv hunter? do you play a feral druid? do you play a shaman? mistweaver, shadow priest, bear druid? see that's where we differ in are argument. I'm not saying these classes aren't represented at all but for the most part they aren't considered for an average group. the problem is their are these classes that people enjoy playing and because of the community itself as a whole we have decided that these players cant play the game. Its not about just dps its about the right dps, healers, and tanks. Currently the "meta" is if you play anything other than an outlaw rogue, a bm hunter, demon hunter, prot warrior, resto druid, and a couple others you don't get to play the game. put yourself in other players shoes sometimes. think about the players that play the game and they play once a week they enjoy it but they want a bit more out of their Wow grind everyday. why cant they queue and just jump in without worrying about whether or not if their the right spec or the right class to play. What about the players who have to only an hour to play a night. To your example above why do they have to wait a half hour for a tank only to have barely a half hour to run the dungeon. making the group, getting to the stone, making sure everyone is ready. all of this stuff takes time. we exclude classes because the top 1% don't play those classes.its not their fault they play whatever is best and so the other players who are just starting out or don't know any better or the diehards for whatever spec that there is play those because they love those specs but now they don't get to play the game because randoms told them they couldn't.

and again take joining guilds and friends out of it.

I think that if we were to ask the average wow player if they like the "revolving door that is N'zoth" in LFR right now over never experiencing raiding at all I think most would say yeah at least i got to see it. final part to that is; if you want to complete it you stay and you learn don't you? i didn't do N'zoth normal or any higher difficulty. i stayed my 2 hours and 10 deter stacks in LFR like everyone else till i did the fight right and got it done. I'm not saying that everyone has time like that but if you want something done you stay to learn and complete it. People failing, quitting, and joining is fine but if you don't get to try you don't get to succeed.

In-fact take away keys period. relieve the pressure of "my key could get depleted" make it just about how high you can/want to run it.

[Wuusah]

So in my orginal post i said that their should be internal scores. Like normal you should be able to queue and lets say for example kings rest. it should just have a thing for +7 based on if/how many times you've run kings rest and your gearscore and you should be able to do the dungeon no problem. I didnt say they were easy but i also dont think they are overally hard but again as you said subjective. I do think you should grind to get there. i think you should have to do that +1,2,3 etc a few times all the way up before the game decides that your ready for the big+15 that your trying to complete. I do think you should have to work for that chest at the end of the week And when you do get there you should feel accomplished that you made it. To your exact points 1. i dont think you should skip i think you should work for it.

2. Where we differ tho is how people should get there. Do you play a surv hunter? do you play a feral druid? do you play a shaman? mistweaver, shadow priest, bear druid? see that's where we differ in are argument. I'm not saying these classes aren't represented at all but for the most part they aren't considered for an average group. the problem is their are these classes that people enjoy playing and because of the community itself as a whole we have decided that these players cant play the game. Its not about just dps its about the right dps, healers, and tanks. Currently the "meta" is if you play anything other than an outlaw rogue, a bm hunter, demon hunter, prot warrior, resto druid, and a couple others you don't get to play the game. put yourself in other players shoes sometimes. think about the players that play the game and they play once a week they enjoy it but they want a bit more out of their Wow grind everyday. why cant they queue and just jump in without worrying about whether or not if their the right spec or the right class to play. What about the players who have to only an hour to play a night. To your example above why do they have to wait a half hour for a tank only to have barely a half hour to run the dungeon. making the group, getting to the stone, making sure everyone is ready. all of this stuff takes time. we exclude classes because the top 1% don't play those classes.its not their fault they play whatever is best and so the other players who are just starting out or don't know any better or the diehards for whatever spec that there is play those because they love those specs but now they don't get to play the game because randoms told them they couldn't.

and again take joining guilds and friends out of it.

I think that if we were to ask the average wow player if they like the "revolving door that is N'zoth" in LFR right now over never experiencing raiding at all I think most would say yeah at least i got to see it. final part to that is; if you want to complete it you stay and you learn don't you? i didn't do N'zoth normal or any higher difficulty. i stayed my 2 hours and 10 deter stacks in LFR like everyone else till i did the fight right and got it done. I'm not saying that everyone has time like that but if you want something done you stay to learn and complete it. People failing, quitting, and joining is fine but if you don't get to try you don't get to succeed.

In-fact take away keys period. relieve the pressure of "my key could get depleted" make it just about how high you can/want to run it.

I have played off-meta specs in M+. It’s not that hard to find a group. You just need to keep trying. Most people don’t really care that much about the meta in that key level range. People care about experience above all.

What is the difference between applying 10 times and being rejected 9 times, and applying one time and getting a tank after 30 minutes of waiting? You will wait a similar amount of time but your dungeon group quality will drop significantly with a queue. It would be foolish to believe otherwise.
People should get over their fear of rejection.

[ydraw]

Edit: also why do you think people get declined? It’s because of two reasons:
1. They want to jump ahead in experience. Why do you want to do a +15 if you didn’t do a +13-14 in that dungeon yet? Work your way up!
2. you are playing a role that everyone else is playing as well: dps. When 30 dps try to join one group then 90% get declined, no matter how good they are. But a queue doesn’t change anything in that regard. You’ll just wait half an hour for a tank.

You are forgetting a third reason: You're playing a relatively undesirable/non-meta class. And a queue absolutely fixes that.

- - - Updated - - -

I have played off-meta specs in M+. It’s not that hard to find a group. You just need to keep trying. Most people don’t really care that much about the meta in that key level range. People care about experience above all.

What is the difference between applying 10 times and being rejected 9 times, and applying one time and getting a tank after 30 minutes of waiting? You will wait a similar amount of time but your dungeon group quality will drop significantly with a queue. It would be foolish to believe otherwise.
People should get over their fear of rejection.

Wait time isn't such an issue with a queue because you can go do other things while you wait. If you have to monitor the in-game group finder for 30 minutes it significantly reduces what else you can do in that time.

[Wuusah]

You are forgetting a third reason: You're playing a relatively undesirable/non-meta class. And a queue absolutely fixes that.

- - - Updated - - -



Wait time isn't such an issue with a queue because you can go do other things while you wait. If you have to monitor the in-game group finder for 30 minutes it significantly reduces what else you can do in that time.

Quality of groups drop significantly. People would leave groups all the time. The nature of M+ keys make a replacement impossible. The run ends after 30 minutes of waiting with someone just leaving. Again and again.

People who think a queue would make things better didn’t really think things through. They just have this naive idea that it’s better because they don’t get rejected and get their +15 done in a week.

[Bozey17]

so just make m+ soloable but keep the difficulty the same, problem solved. If you're a good player but was getting declined because addon says you have no exp now you can go solo and get exp then get invited to groups. Easy fix. No need to overcomplicate things or even argue about this. It really is an easy and elegant solution.

[ydraw]

Quality of groups drop significantly. People would leave groups all the time. The nature of M+ keys make a replacement impossible. The run ends after 30 minutes of waiting with someone just leaving. Again and again.

People who think a queue would make things better didn’t really think things through. They just have this naive idea that it’s better because they don’t get rejected and get their +15 done in a week.

I agree it's a bad idea for M+, but I think there's an argument for queueable regular mythics, especially later in the expansion when they are only relevant for the weekly quest. It often takes longer to form a group for these than it takes to complete the dungeon itself.

[Ifeanychukwu]

Classic 12 years old answer.

When you feel the need to reference age to make a point it usually means that you're the one that needs to grow up. If you have no problem doing difficult content then do it. Your RIO will increase passively if you are indeed as good as you claim you are. Surely you run dungeons for weeklies and such? If you've achieved those things then RIO will help you to display those achievements without having to dig through a persons achievement list.

Before RIO people would spend time to look people up on the armory which shows the same information anyway, RIO just makes it easier to tell what kind of content people have done and tells you how frequently they do said content successfully.

[Wuusah]

so just make m+ soloable but keep the difficulty the same, problem solved. If you're a good player but was getting declined because addon says you have no exp now you can go solo and get exp then get invited to groups. Easy fix. No need to overcomplicate things or even argue about this. It really is an easy and elegant solution.

Do you mean solo as in mage tower solo or solo as in solo queue?

Because solo queue is already a bad idea but completely solo trumps it all...

[Bozey17]

Do you mean solo as in mage tower solo or solo as in solo queue?

Because solo queue is already a bad idea but completely solo trumps it all...

mage tower solo if your not good enough to solo you can play with the premade group finder groups and raider io.

[Wuusah]

mage tower solo if your not good enough to solo you can play with the premade group finder groups and raider io.

This is such a stupid idea. Seriously, even playing with bots is more reasonable.

How are you going to make this content balanced for solo classes, while keeping it about as challenging as in a group when solo performance varies so wildly for each spec?

[david0925]

so just make m+ soloable but keep the difficulty the same, problem solved. If you're a good player but was getting declined because addon says you have no exp now you can go solo and get exp then get invited to groups. Easy fix. No need to overcomplicate things or even argue about this. It really is an easy and elegant solution.

so Diablo 3 solo GR push in WoW, ok.