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  1. #41
    Pandaren Monk taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The problem is: Blizzard thinks that this is a good spot for the classes to be in.



    I think part of the problem is that most people can't articulate in detail what they feel is missing from the class they're playing or what should be there because at the end of the day they're not game devs. Pointing out that "classes suck" should suffice for Blizzard to revisit classes especially when it's coupled to "class was better in patch x.x". I mean, the Legion redesigns certainly weren't based on player feedback and they managed to pull it off (for better or for worse).

    It's the same deal as with the GCD changes. It shouldn't be expected from players who think "GCD change was bad" to provide detailed case-by-case arguments for every single spell that was affected. I think this is a really dumb way to obfuscate the fact that Blizzard is doing very little in that regard while still maintaining the appearance of caring about these concerns.
    I don't think you need to be a game developer to offer good feedback, and I don't see how "class X sucks" is enough feedback to work with.

    Say you open a restaurant, and you get a bad Yelp review. The comment says "food sucked", and that's it. How do you know how to fix that problem? Was the food too salty? too Sweet? Cold? Hot? etc. Vague feedback is useless.

    But, as I said, you don't need to be a game dev to offer constructive feedback. Here is a real world example:

    I don't like the way Arcane Mage plays, and haven't since Cataclysm. I hate having to manage mana, a useless meta game that adds a layer of friction on top of complex encounters or encounters that require quick action. I think some talent choices don't add any fun but are the best in theory and if you can't play them than you are not playing the class to its optimum level.

    I know absolutely zero about game design, even though I think I have a vague concept. "Is my feedback "right"? I guarantee you few players agree with me, or at least publicly, since saying you think something is too complex is like saying you have a small, uh..., but that is just my subjective feedback. To be clear I am not suggesting they change arcane for me; I am old and slow and half blind, but if you asked me about the spec, that is how I feel about it.

    But that is something a game developer can look at and say "I see how this guy feels, and why, he does have a small unit!" Just kidding. But that is a far cry different than me saying "arcane sucks".
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  2. #42
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    I watched reaction of people in Alpha and they were fine with most specs beside some outliers like Feral or Shadow. Something happened or it's another "classes are in terrible state" pointless thread?
    People say MM is good because it currently deals good damage in beta. To anyone who has played MM for multiple expansions it has many obvious problems in both PvE and PvP. Can't just take "x is fine y is bad" at face value.
    Last edited by docterfreeze; 2020-08-04 at 07:16 PM.

  3. #43
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The thing is: they really didn't change much at all and that is indefensible. They can't possibly believe that all the complaints about pruning and botched class design we've heard in the last 4 years could be fixed by readding a few flavour abilities. This isn't an honest attempt at alleviating these concerns - it's more like throwing a bone to the players by once again doing the bare minimum.
    But they have made meaningful changes if you want more then have already been made you need specifics not just nebulous claims by people who likely haven’t even looked at the changes.

    Let’s use hunter as an example as there the class I’m most interested in. Of course not at a high end level though.

    Baseline Abilities: Arcane Shot, Eyes of the Beast, Hunter’s Mark, Kill Shot, Scare Beast, and Tranquilizing Shot
    Eyes of the beast is of course useles flavour and arcane may or may not be useful to bm and Sv depending on numbers. But hunters mark is something you’ll always use and have to recast on target switching fights. Kill shot will change your execute rotation scare beast will likely be useful in M+ and pvp tranq shot will be useful all over the place. Theses are just the class wide changes and there things you will use all the time. Each spec then has multiple talent changes which change gameplay further which you can see here.


    https://www.wowhead.com/shadowlands-...-class-changes


    Should they make further changes? Maybe but without specified feed back They can only do so much.

    Oh and I just saw that apparently shadow priest were Reworked. No idea if this is better or worse as I’ve never really played one but it seems pretty meaningful from my comply ignorant view.

    https://www.wowhead.com/news=317236/...hanges?webhook
    Last edited by Daemos daemonium; 2020-08-04 at 06:58 PM.

  4. #44
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
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    The legion redesigns were a tragedy. So much depth lost, the skill cap lowered to a level not seen since classic or tbc. For reasons only they know it's what they're choosing to stick with for 3 expansions. At least for the first time since MoP we're gaining more permanent abilities than we're losing.

    They think classes having too many strengths from too many buttons is a problem so that's why almost all time which would be spent improving classes is instead spent on improving rental abilities. I just disagree with their philosophy. I like my class being able to do lots of things much more than I like feeling like a snowflake.
    Last edited by docterfreeze; 2020-08-04 at 07:43 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    couldn't agree more... Classes are in a terrible state and they just keep focusing on borrowed powers that we won't even have once this is over.

    Get the classes to a good spot, THEN do your borrowed powers bullshit, Blizz.
    or, maybe, you do both at the same time? you are aware that a team is able to do more than one thing at a time yes? as for this thread it is absolutely laughable. there have been plenty of class changes just not as much recently. if you go back a few months to the alpha there were entire pages of notes dedicated to class changes. on top of that, who decides if they are good or not?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    Say you open a restaurant, and you get a bad Yelp review. The comment says "food sucked", and that's it. How do you know how to fix that problem? Was the food too salty? too Sweet? Cold? Hot? etc. Vague feedback is useless.
    This is a flawed analogy. In case of most restaurants, they don't get any feedback at all. Customers simply stop going to a place if the food sucks. It's up to them to improve their cuisine if they don't want to close their business.

    But the entire discussion is pretty meaningless anyways. Blizzard get enough constructive feedback on top of the people saying "my class sucks/my class felt better in MoP". They simply don't want to engage with it because doing so would involve a legion style rework (which they already said they won't do).

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    on top of that, who decides if they are good or not?
    Hopefully people who know how to make a game fun, not just go by stats.

  8. #48
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    or, maybe, you do both at the same time? you are aware that a team is able to do more than one thing at a time yes? as for this thread it is absolutely laughable. there have been plenty of class changes just not as much recently. if you go back a few months to the alpha there were entire pages of notes dedicated to class changes. on top of that, who decides if they are good or not?
    Over all this time they have only made any noteworthy changes to 5 classes, Priest, Mage, Shaman, Warlock, and DK... Everything else has been minor tweaks to things that don't even matter that much, or walls of text on shit like Blessing of Seasons while ignoring all the feedback Paladins have given about their actual class.


    So, sure, doing both at the same time would be great... They fuckin don't seem to be though, over half the classes haven't gotten much if any of the attention they need and we're not all that long from the supposed launch window closing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    This is a flawed analogy. In case of most restaurants, they don't get any feedback at all. Customers simply stop going to a place if the food sucks. It's up to them to improve their cuisine if they don't want to close their business.

    But the entire discussion is pretty meaningless anyways. Blizzard get enough constructive feedback on top of the people saying "my class sucks/my class felt better in MoP". They simply don't want to engage with it because doing so would involve a legion style rework (which they already said they won't do).
    I mean, it's not quite on the level of a Legion rework but look at what they did to Enhancement and SPriest, those changes aren't insignificant, if they did changes on that level they could get through most of these complaints... It would be more than enough to trounce all the complaints I see on the Paladin forums for example, aside from the "remove Holy Power" crowd.
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  9. #49
    Pandaren Monk taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    This is a flawed analogy. In case of most restaurants, they don't get any feedback at all. Customers simply stop going to a place if the food sucks. It's up to them to improve their cuisine if they don't want to close their business.

    But the entire discussion is pretty meaningless anyways. Blizzard get enough constructive feedback on top of the people saying "my class sucks/my class felt better in MoP". They simply don't want to engage with it because doing so would involve a legion style rework (which they already said they won't do).
    I think it's a fine analogy, but perhaps it doesn't occur as much as I would assume. As for how much they will rework, I guess it depends; looks like SP just got some major changes, but of course "my class" is still ignored/rip/spat on/meme/lackluster/garbage. And the wheel turns...
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This mirrors my opinion - it doesnt matter how flash the racetrack is, how many straights, turns, banks, grandstands, food stands, sound systems - non of that matters if you are driving it in ya mums clapped out 1995 automatic honda civic with 2 flat tyres.

    Im not sure i agree that the classes have been ignored, but i do feel they have used those new systems to fill gaps in the classes, a mistake they have made twice recently.

    My concern is that it gives them an out - "yeah, we hear your feedback about classes, but its just beta - you just wait until you have levled everything up and unlocked everything and have better gear!"

    And when that happens, and people are still unhappy, they say "we hear you, and are making some changes for 9.1 we think you will find REALLY exciting!"

    And then this will repeat until "with 10.0, we are revamping all the classes! we hear you!"
    This has got to be my favorite analogy for spriest between (any) expansion launch and tier3 of that expac.

    Really hoping the spriest "rework" that was posted for SL changes that, but I doubt it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I think it's a fine analogy, but perhaps it doesn't occur as much as I would assume. As for how much they will rework, I guess it depends; looks like SP just got some major changes, but of course "my class" is still ignored/rip/spat on/meme/lackluster/garbage. And the wheel turns...
    Yeah, it only took them 3+ years to come up with something for shadow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Very rare pepe View Post
    Hopefully people who know how to make a game fun, not just go by stats.
    Hopefully people who can understand that there are people who care about performance and people who care about feels and that those are not required to be the same people.

  11. #51
    Pandaren Monk taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    This has got to be my favorite analogy for spriest between (any) expansion launch and tier3 of that expac.

    Really hoping the spriest "rework" that was posted for SL changes that, but I doubt it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, it only took them 3+ years to come up with something for shadow.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Hopefully people who can understand that there are people who care about performance and people who care about feels and that those are not required to be the same people.
    Yeah, it took way too long. WAY too long.

    I understand there is a difference, but I think the question is not that there are people who care about performance, but how many, and whether or not that quantity is enough to have an impact. I think we've seen that specific class changes occur far less frequently than changes to added abilities and items, which would suggest a broader spectrum of feedback and thus more attention placed on them, i.e., everyone complains about warforging/Azerite/corruptions, but only Shadow Priests complain about Shadow Priests, and so forth.
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the last act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Over all this time they have only made any noteworthy changes to 5 classes, Priest, Mage, Shaman, Warlock, and DK... Everything else has been minor tweaks to things that don't even matter that much, or walls of text on shit like Blessing of Seasons while ignoring all the feedback Paladins have given about their actual class.

    So, sure, doing both at the same time would be great... They fuckin don't seem to be though, over half the classes haven't gotten much if any of the attention they need and we're not all that long from the supposed launch window closing.
    how do you know they haven't taken it on board? you're talking about a specific class, can you point me to where feedback about the class was ignored?

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    This is a flawed analogy. In case of most restaurants, they don't get any feedback at all. Customers simply stop going to a place if the food sucks. It's up to them to improve their cuisine if they don't want to close their business.

    But the entire discussion is pretty meaningless anyways. Blizzard get enough constructive feedback on top of the people saying "my class sucks/my class felt better in MoP". They simply don't want to engage with it because doing so would involve a legion style rework (which they already said they won't do).
    It's not a flawed analogy. It explicitly noted a Yelp review for said hypothetical restaurant. And even if you dont want to accept it, yelp reviews do actually exist.

  14. #54
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    how do you know they haven't taken it on board? you're talking about a specific class, can you point me to where feedback about the class was ignored?
    Consider I mentioned that in the same breath as Blessing of Seasons, and I'm sure you can figure which class I was talking about.

    Literally every blue post in the Paladin feedback thread has been about Blessing of Seasons with one mention of another covenant ability and a slight change to Prot holy power generation.

    They aknowledged that Seraphim and Inquisition both being talents is a problem IN MAY and have yet to do anything about it, and that's it... No work on all of our dead talents (and there are many, Ret alone has no less than 6 dead talents (not counting PvP talents) that no one will ever take), no work on Ret's clunky rotation, or our horrid mobility that we've been complaining about for 5 years, no mention of fixing Ret's WoG healing for only 5% HP in PvP, no mention of Retribution Aura which literally no one has responded to in a positive manner...

    Need I fucking go on? 95% of the work they've shown so far for Paladins has been on our covenant abilities, 4% has been on other borrowed powers like legendary effects, and maybe 1% was on our actual class.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-08-04 at 08:47 PM.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    Yeah, it took way too long. WAY too long.

    I understand there is a difference, but I think the question is not that there are people who care about performance, but how many, and whether or not that quantity is enough to have an impact. I think we've seen that specific class changes occur far less frequently than changes to added abilities and items, which would suggest a broader spectrum of feedback and thus more attention placed on them, i.e., everyone complains about warforging/Azerite/corruptions, but only Shadow Priests complain about Shadow Priests, and so forth.
    Tbf, there were say more non-priest complaining about shadow after shadow finally got *a* fight (at the end of the 3rd raid of the expac) that they were wanted on.

    Non-spriest only care about spriest when they are viable. And only then until blizzard over nerfs them.

  16. #56
    Cynic in me says two things:

    1."fixed classes" isn't an expansion feature that you can exactly sell.
    It's already an issue with the Unpruning, "we're giving you things back we took away" is not the best line to sell a product.

    2. I assume that a lot of other players have simply checked out of the whole gameplay / "power grind" aspect almost entirely.

    I'd be very curious how many players are actually still interested in the gameplay side of things and how many see them more on the side "i mostly farm collectibles and transmog".

    Like, if a lot of players aren't that interested in the gameplay anymore and classes merely need to be "good enough" to suit those people, why put more resource into it?

    Perhaps Blizzard tries to hit two birds with one stone, bring in "fresh stuff" to the class via a new feature they can promote, rather than work on the fundamentals.
    Quite frankly, the class design team seems starved of resources, or perhaps some too much time ends up wasted on project(s) that don't even end up in the final product anyway.

    In BfA in particular, how much time went into them trying to actually fix Azerite behind the scenes, without anything of us ever seeing much of it?
    Perhaps in SL, too much time is assigned to "balance covenants", rather than "fix classes".

    However, for fairness sake, Classes like Shaman have almost always been shit on expansion release, it's pretty much tradition at this point, it merely varies which spec and how hard they suck.
    Shaman design is dominated by solutions they made up in the fly, only to remove it one or two expansions later.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-08-04 at 09:21 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    It's not a flawed analogy. It explicitly noted a Yelp review for said hypothetical restaurant. And even if you dont want to accept it, yelp reviews do actually exist.
    Yelp reviews exist but I sincerely doubt that they have a big influence on the quality of a restaurant's food. Big surprise: restaurants existed before Yelp and they somehow managed to produce food that doesn't taste like garbage without the valuable, specific feedback from Yelp reviews.

    But as I said: It's meaningless. Blizzard gets both constructive feedback and feedback that is limited to "game bad/classes bad/revert to MoP". Both can provide insight for them. The problem is that they generally don't use it.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-08-04 at 09:25 PM.

  18. #58
    IMHO the Problem is Blizzard achieves something unique every Addon in Terms of Class Design. There are always Classes / Specs Blizzard listens almost 100% and there are Classes/Speccs they refuse to change one bit. And yet it always seems to be the similar classes f.e. Restoration Druid. I main Restoration since I started playing in wotlk. There were some good times and many bad times. Especially for Healer there are some philsophies they want to maintain which I think collide mostly because they work for either raid or mythic+ not both:

    1. Every Healer should have their "Niche" or their "Speciality"
    - Them Problem here is the "Niches" are solely planned around RAID, some Niches are OK with M+ some are really nasty (Shaman)

    2. Tools which should be Standard are not given to other Speccs because of Class Fantasy / Diversity
    - Every Healer should have 1 Single DR CD and one Group DR CD so every healer has the same "base toolkit" other tools / mods can be added as flavour

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yeah I pity the poor theorycrafters because they have to sim every conduit with every of the 3 path choices of the 4 covenants with every possible combination of the 2 legendarys + the perfect stats on the other gear and the best trinkets (As well as the "usual" enchantment,etc. stuff).
    I hoped so much that Battle for Simcaft would end that but now it starts all over again if you are not the person who says i dont care i take the blue glowing one ;-)

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Shaman design is dominated by solutions they made up in the fly, only to remove it one or two expansions later.
    Its feels so stupid to even have a hope on Shaman class designer.

    "Shaman mobility sucks in pvp" -> devs :"we made cool and nice skill for you , GUST OF WIND"

    2 weeks later

    -GUST OF WIND was removed from enhancement shaman-

    1 year later

    -GUST OF WIND was removed from all specs of shaman-

    1 year later

    (we think shaman is just 1-2% behind, damn boi 1-2% from pre last spot of 12 classes its ... like ~12% behind from 1st spot)


    Me sitting and hoping on addition of cool mobility or save CD to shaman class in SL.(while all covenant skills for shaman is meme shit)
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2020-08-04 at 10:10 PM.
    I want these classes in new x-pac Necromancer,RuneMaster,Warden,BladeMaster,DarkRanger,Dragonsworn,Alchemist,Lich,Tinker

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    People say MM is good because it currently deals good damage in beta. To anyone who has played MM for multiple expansions it has many obvious problems in both PvE and PvP. Can't just take "x is fine y is bad" at face value.

    I agree. MM, will still be awful because it's awful at the most base level. They are so busy worrying about Covenants and Conduits that classes will still feel like crap. Well, only some classes as we know many classes are over-tuned.
    Take Enhancement. Beta testers say "it's fun" but then there are a hundred beta complaints that Enhance can barely quest because it's defensive a are so awful.

    Same same. Shadowlands is BfA with a different coat of paint.

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