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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    I would say, that it is completly fair to pick on them or blame them for the current situation, just like it would be fair with any other company who does this. Just because others do something shitty, does not make your thing less shitty. Just because your neighbor stabbed a dude, does not make it okay if you do it.
    I don't disagree, but your analogy is a little flawed. Stabbing people is illegal, companies paying their workers shitty wages is not.

    I completly agree, that this is something bigger than just Blizzard. That the system allows it all and maybe even encourages it, but that does not make Blizzard less bad. Just because they can do it legally, does not make it any less amoral.
    Fair point, but again, focusing on Blizzard in this situation doesn't address the root cause. That's all I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Why can't you hate the player and the game? The player isn't bound to play by the rules of the game, and plenty of others don't.
    Those other players are playing by the same rules though, but some of them do treat their employees better. I'll give them that.

    Agreed, and I don't think individual companies taking stances will "fix" the underlying problems. But that's no reason for a company to throw its hands up and say, "We can't fix EVERYTHING, so I guess we'll do NOTHING...which also happens to be in our financial interests!", either.

    Just because the system is flawed doesn't excuse the behavior of companies that participate in and exploit the flawed system.
    My point was never intended to be counter to this, it was merely pointing out that the entire system is fucked up and that Blizzard is just one of many that participate. Focusing on one company won't fix the issue. Making Blizzard do "better" won't change how other companies out there do business. For there to be actual, progressive, changes that force employers to give their lowest level employees a living wage....giving shit to Blizzard isn't going to make that happen.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    Blizzard pays significantly less than competitors, that's part of the problem.
    It's not just about salaries. IT is a market that is in demand. If you are good at your job you should be able to demand a good salary. There are other places you can work. There are likely to be intangible benefits for working at blizzard. An employee is within their rights to seek better pay conditions but in the end if they don't like it they should just leave for another job. That's how it works. Paying less than your competitors is not a problem unless you fail to fill roles in the company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  3. #403
    Pit Lord Mrbleedinggums's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oriondc View Post
    The responses here will be divided by age. Those around 35+ will likely say that if people are unhappy with their job or position they should find a different one, or even MAKE a different one.

    Those under 35ish will blame the company and feel sympathy for the devs.

    Why? Because the education system began indoctrinating children at a certain point to despise capitalism as the Great Satan of their lives and to instead rely and trust the government and nanny state for everything. Just be careful what you wish for. May I point out the economies of Venezuela, Cuba, even the UK? Those people have almost no choice whatsoever and are among the most depressed in the world because of it.

    But, carry on hating these anonymous millionaires/billionaires and the 'greedy evil corporations.' Maybe stop and ask yourself if what you've been told is actually true.
    Yes and believe that milk helps promote strong bones because that whole ad campaign (along with the studies) were promoted or paid for by the meat and milk industries. Truly no horse in the game so no reason to lie! /s

    Capitalism is different in the 1900s than Capitalism today. Anyone with half a brain could understand that.

    I think you meant to post your propaganda drivel on breitbart.com though.
    "Why of course the people don't want war…. But, after all… it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

  4. #404
    Pandaren Monk
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    The government is run by and for rich folks, and corporate boards are rich folks awarding other rich folks compensation. Of course executives get outrageous sums as compensation-many of the ceo's are on other boards awarding compensation to their ceo. It's a revolving circle of excessive pay awarded by people paid a lot of money. These same wealthy folks are the major donors that help elect those that right the rules. Anyone that thinks the extremely complicated US tax code is to benefit the country are wrong. It makes compliance difficult, and when you pair that with dwindling resources at the IRS, those that can afford good accountants get to avoid payment with little fear of an audit. Poor folks don't make enough to pay Federal taxes. This leaves the tax burden on the shrinking middle class.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  5. #405
    Bernie tried to fix the corrupt "1% of the 1%!" and just got labelled a socialist.

    Good luck Murica
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  6. #406
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    Can you at least tell me what makes bobby kotick worth 40 million? When he doesnt write a single line of coding or speak to a single customer on the products he sells.
    the Board decides what he's worth.. not you... the only way you can have any control over his salary is 1) buy yourself a seat on the board, or 2) stop paying Activision any money.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  7. #407
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    Yeah, my post above yours is pulling the numbers from the WoWhead sheet. I converted everyone's salary to hourly manually, and converted most of the people paid in euros to USD at a 1.05 (which is still below what it should be, and compounded by the fact many of the sub $20 are in Cork)
    I saw that and it's rather useful as i assume most wont want to scroll though the chart as people are lazy.

    but ya even some GM's are making 20$ an hour so it's not a low amount.

  8. #408
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorzor View Post
    Imagine if those underpaid workers went on strike, and refused to work until Kotick and that long-haired dummy resigned. Sure, WoW and its Shadowlands expansion would be heavily compromised, but it'd be hilarious nonetheless.
    I absolutely believe they should try it.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    the Board decides what he's worth.. not you... the only way you can have any control over his salary is 1) buy yourself a seat on the board, or 2) stop paying Activision any money.
    His ability to strip down a company to its bare minimum to milk profits and demanding systems within the games that push players towards real money transactions is his skill. It sure pays well.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    It's really surprising there are no laws in place to prevent stuff like this. Nepotism running rampant and extreme wage disparity are two of the main reasons the global economy is going down the shitter, excluding COVID
    But there is laws, just not i USA.

  11. #411
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Wonder how many of these disgruntled people were happy with the offer given when accepting a job at Blizzard
    I'd bet the vast majority, or they wouldn't have taken the job.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Why is there this mysterious notion that people are free to pick and choose whatever job they like that they feel pays them well enough as if they don't actually need the money to pay bills and eat? What is this choice nonsense, especially for entry level workers. Their choices are largely all jobs that pay them like dogshit, and that's not something we should be alright with.

    Beyond that, many of these folks don't have the luxury of job-shopping or turning down offers that may not pay what they want. They have bills. They have rent. They need to eat. They take the job and may keep looking elsewhere. But having worked a job that's stressful as fuck and barely covers the bills, you're also usually not left with a ton of time and energy to go heavy job hunting every day after work.

    So yeah, these folks are being forced into taking shit paying jobs to continue living, eating, and having a roof to sleep under.
    Excuse me, but this is bullshit. The employment market has been driven by employees for at least 5 years now. Everyone has permanent openings - everywhere. I've lived about 40 minutes from Blizzard HQ, yes, the place is expensive as fuck to live in, but the jobs there tend to pay pretty well, even for unskilled people. I met so many people doing side hustles; Uber drivers made quite a killing at the time in that area.

    I'm not a firm believer in the 'pull yourself by your bootstraps' ideology, but if you don't think 'work' is a dirty word, there are SO many ways to make extra income. If they are working 2 jobs and still struggling to make ends meet, then they must be pissing money away somewhere. It's not possible to live there on minimum wage, but with frugality, living there on ~$15/hour IS POSSIBLE (min. wage is $13.75). Yeah, it's not fun, but you get what you put in.

  13. #413

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Are we supposed to be outraged a programmer makes more then a customer service rep or a play tester.
    I remember when Inwas a lawn care tech, we had to post our production totals on the board for everyone to see. All the guys on ride on spreaders hated me and claimed Indid less work because they would bring back $1200-$1500 dollars a day. I would bring back $800 because my average lawn size was double theirs and my average price half theirs. So while I did half the dollar amount I was doing the same if not more in terms of Sqfootage.

    Point is people will get upset over precieved disparities.

  15. #415
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    I'm reading through the dropbox

    it was also discovered that the company and the entire IP was covertly taken from the founder.

    ...

    22nd of June 2020 the publisher of “Aeon Must Die!” received a confidential letter from the team who expressed their concerns about the company and cried out for help

    Finally on the last day at the end of the work day, the team manages to get a hold of the Head of Legal for a short call. During the call It was found out that close tono information (even overviews and statements provided) were processed by the publisher up to this point. The team was ensured by the Head of Legal, that the publisher sees no problems with what has happened and with tomorrow’s release.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Highlights

    • The CEO said he had licensed the rights to the IP, but there was no agreement. It was stolen.
    • The team members emailed their complaints to the publisher but the publisher did nothing.
    • It was later revealed that the publisher (or someone there) was in collusion with the CEO.
    • The company cheaped out on everything, didn't even buy the software, instead using cracked software. Apparently buying mousepads for your workstations was "too expensive".
    • The CEO told them to go on vacation and that they weren't needed for the rest of their contract, then he phones them up and orders them to come into the office (when they had been working at home) and threatened them if they didn't come right now, and then fires employees who hadn't even been notified that they were supposed to come in "for being late".

    What a nightmare

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - Druid / Steam / MyAnimeList / IMDB - - - - - - - - - - - -

  16. #416
    To be honest this is a different issue, they were blatantly breaking the law here, until the employees said no more. The studio is probably out of money. But yeah, public walkout is the radical solution.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I'm reading through the dropbox



    - - - Updated - - -

    Highlights

    • The CEO said he had licensed the rights to the IP, but there was no agreement. It was stolen.
    • The team members emailed their complaints to the publisher but the publisher did nothing.
    • It was later revealed that the publisher (or someone there) was in collusion with the CEO.
    • The company cheaped out on everything, didn't even buy the software, instead using cracked software. Apparently buying mousepads for your workstations was "too expensive".
    • The CEO told them to go on vacation and that they weren't needed for the rest of their contract, then he phones them up and orders them to come into the office (when they had been working at home) and threatened them if they didn't come right now, and then fires employees who hadn't even been notified that they were supposed to come in "for being late".

    What a nightmare
    While this sucks, and is incredibly shitty, what does this have to do with Blizzard/ topic of the thread?

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I saw that and it's rather useful as i assume most wont want to scroll though the chart as people are lazy.

    but ya even some GM's are making 20$ an hour so it's not a low amount.
    It was definitely not what I was expecting. based on the story, and what some people were posting, I was expecting 25%+ in the under $20 / hour. Not 10%, with a bunch of those being in Cork.

    It's still just one aspect though. Do they have benefits? Do they get bonuses? What other perks? There's a big difference between only making $16 / hour, and making $16 / hour with benefits, a chance at a yearly bonus, stock options, and other perks.

  19. #419
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Good play testers are 100% as important as most developers/programmers don't get to actually play the games they are making early on in development when it is a large scale game.

    I still find bugs and break games because of collision based glitches in most new 3d games released today and you do not find those just sitting behind a desk programming.
    Importance is not a good comparison. A nurse is as important as a surgeon but salary is assessed by skill, experience, and competitive market value. Play testers are skilled and abundant, but comparatively, they aren't as skilled as programmers. That's no statement about individual value, it's just a simple apples-to-oranges comparison by skill. A nurse is skilled (he/she may know how to prepare a patient for surgery and even perform incisions and stitch up wounds) but not as skilled as a surgeon (who does the delicate work of removing cancerous tissue, or stitching torn tissue, or repairing bone damage, etc).

  20. #420
    when a company becomes a 'dream' job, this will happen. someone who can do your job better, for less pay will always exist. thus the issue.

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