Gear scaling in mythic raids

[Tronski]

What would the mythic raiding scene look like if gear was capped somewhere around the base level of heroic raid drops? (Think challenge mode of MoP / WoD)

You could farm heroic/mythic to max your gear slots, but there would be a hard cap to how stronk you could get.

Assuming same strength of mythic raid drops as today, but that they would only make you stronger outside of mythic raids, and would in no way help towards completing the mythic raid, save for optimal secondary stats and trinnet effects.

Would you still raid mythic?
Would you have kept farming it for the mounts, cosmetics and imba gear for mythic+ pushing?

Difficulty would obviously have to be balanced around this gear cap, but still harder than heroic and with added mechanics.

[keldarepewpew]

No no no no no. Game is an rpg fuck competitive integrity. Just no.

[Relapses]

This idea is so repulsively bad it causes me physical pain just thinking about it.

This is a no so emphatic I wish it could be heard to the ends of the cosmos and back.

edit: Michael Scott says it best --

[Trend]

What would the mythic raiding scene look like if gear was capped somewhere around the base level of heroic raid drops?

It would look dead. There are a small number of groups that can clear Mythic raids without the power inflation that comes from drops from Mythic raids. So instead of having ~200k mythic raiders you would have a few thousand because most people don't like slamming their heads against walls.

[Thanatu]

As dumb as this sounds, id entertain the idea. But lets say I clear the raid...what do I get for it ?

I hate right now that I can get Mythic raid quality gear from doing a simple 5 man piece of content. Would love to have something with more prestige. Same goes for gladiator level players , or high warlords etc. Even people doing +22 and above. I think players on highest level deserve power gains above the normal player.

[Dimad]

I dont know how this would even feasibly work. Why would anyone raid mythic then if they get geared out in heroic assuming that was the cap? If your goal in this thread was to see if more people would then run mythic + (assuming thats your end game) why would they remotely bother? I mean some would yes but not everyone. Capping so that theres no power difference between heroic and mythic would not bring the results you would be looking for.

[Tronski]

As dumb as this sounds, id entertain the idea. But lets say I clear the raid...what do I get for it ?

I hate right now that I can get Mythic raid quality gear from doing a simple 5 man piece of content. Would love to have something with more prestige. Same goes for gladiator level players , or high warlords etc. Even people doing +22 and above. I think players on highest level deserve power gains above the normal player.

My thought was the following:
The content would be more difficult than heroic, and never really trivialized by gear, but you would still get higher ilvl gear drops than heroic, mounts and cosmetic. Basically the same reasons as doing it now.

Why does anyone keep raiding mythic after they've cleared it once?

I think there would be several positive side effect:
Boosting would decrease - you'd still be able to boost people in heroic with your imba gear, but most people would easily get gear capped for mythic, unless they are chasing bis stats. Boosting mythic would also have a higher ceiling as that content wouldn't be as easily outgeared.

Gear would still matter, but not be a complete roadblock for anyone that would want to join the mythic scene. Risk of guild breakers increase when hard bosses can't be overpowered, though. On the plus side, you would be able to get gear with better secondaries doing other content.

World first races wouldn't be about who can borrow the most gold and buy crafting mats and BoEs.

It would also kill those ridiculous ilvl requirements to join raids, and Xforging wouldn't matter.

I dont know how this would even feasibly work. Why would anyone raid mythic then if they get geared out in heroic assuming that was the cap? If your goal in this thread was to see if more people would then run mythic + (assuming thats your end game) why would they remotely bother? I mean some would yes but not everyone. Capping so that theres no power difference between heroic and mythic would not bring the results you would be looking for.

But why do you raid mythic today? Because it's fun or solely to get better gear to raid more mythic?

This was the core of my question of my thread, would people still raid at the hardest difficulty when all gear required to clear it could be obtained outside and the only real rewards would be cosmetics and more power outside?

Or is gear to overcome same tier gear-gating really the only reason to raid mythic?

[goldlock]

It would be cleared extremely quickly and have issues with repeatability...

Mythic is the only pve mode where gear matters I find it bizarre to always see people trying to separate it from it.

[Trend]

World first races wouldn't be about who can borrow the most gold and buy crafting mats and BoEs.

1. So you think that Limit and Method were #1 and #2 because they borrowed the most gold? LOL, sure ok, but you don't understanding raiding at all.

2. This problem (I do agree corruption should never have been on BoE's) has happened one time. Hardly a reason to burn down mythic raiding. Maybe they can just not have overpowered BoE's instead?

3. You saying you want to delete consumables too? Want to just roll out of bed and win as soon as servers go live?

It would also kill those ridiculous ilvl requirements to join raids, and Xforging wouldn't matter.

You have to be someone who PUG raids, which explains a lot. Just FYI, PUG raiding has been accompanied by absurd requirements since 2005 before ilvl was a thing. It does not matter how you try to cripple systems, PUG raid leaders will always find a way to filter applicants in ways that seem entirely unreasonable to players behind the curve.

[Tronski]

1. So you think that Limit and Method were #1 and #2 because they borrowed the most gold? LOL, sure ok, but you don't understanding raiding at all.

2. This problem (I do agree corruption should never have been on BoE's) has happened one time. Hardly a reason to burn down mythic raiding. Maybe they can just not have overpowered BoE's instead?

3. You saying you want to delete consumables too? Want to just roll out of bed and win as soon as servers go live?


You have to be someone who PUG raids, which explains a lot. Just FYI, PUG raiding has been accompanied by absurd requirements since 2005 before ilvl was a thing. It does not matter how you try to cripple systems, PUG raid leaders will always find a way to filter applicants in ways that seem entirely unreasonable to players behind the curve.

Please stop the intense attempts to derail the thread with strawmen and insults.

It was just a question as to whether you'd still raid mythic if it was gear-gated in the same way challenge modes was back in the day. (With the same reward structure as mythic raids has today).

Why? / why not?

As I see it, everyone and their grandmother is getting the gear to raid mythic from mythic+ anyway.

[scelero]

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...-of-the-titans

You mean something like this?

- - - Updated - - -

Please stop the intense attempts to derail the thread with strawmen and insults.

It was just a question as to whether you'd still raid mythic if it was gear-gated in the same way challenge modes was back in the day. (With the same reward structure as mythic raids has today).

Why? / why not?

As I see it, everyone and their grandmother is getting the gear to raid mythic from mythic+ anyway.

jesus. did people just learn what 'strawman' means or something? Because you're using it wrong again.

intense attempts? are you even old enough to talk to other people yet?

The person reply asking 'does this what you mean, here are some points i think when i hear what you said'

but instead you go off on some 'intense attempt' to discredit their basic understanding of what you said. Instead of guiding them, you do this horsesh!t crap about strawman.

Please, someone asking 'does this what you mean, and if so why stop there' doesnt mean they're purposely trying to derail your conversation. What's next, you argue the slippery slope argument instead?

And you should get gear for raids from 5 mans. DUH.


As for your question. It's pretty balanced right now. I can get some BiS in raids, some in M+, others through visions. M+ doesn't contain everything I need, nor does raiding. So this concept you're presenting isn't one I experience personally. I'm also do various other things to socket them while I farm them every week to see if I can get a socketed version first.

[Shaetha]

What would the mythic raiding scene look like if gear was capped somewhere around the base level of heroic raid drops? (Think challenge mode of MoP / WoD)

You could farm heroic/mythic to max your gear slots, but there would be a hard cap to how stronk you could get.

Assuming same strength of mythic raid drops as today, but that they would only make you stronger outside of mythic raids, and would in no way help towards completing the mythic raid, save for optimal secondary stats and trinnet effects.

Would you still raid mythic?
Would you have kept farming it for the mounts, cosmetics and imba gear for mythic+ pushing?

Difficulty would obviously have to be balanced around this gear cap, but still harder than heroic and with added mechanics.

WoW is an RPG. The hardest content should reward the best gear and it should be useful in that content.

Play CoD if you don't want gear to matter.

[Tronski]

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...-of-the-titans

You mean something like this?

- - - Updated - - -



jesus. did people just learn what 'strawman' means or something? Because you're using it wrong again.

intense attempts? are you even old enough to talk to other people yet?

The person reply asking 'does this what you mean, here are some points i think when i hear what you said'

but instead you go off on some 'intense attempt' to discredit their basic understanding of what you said. Instead of guiding them, you do this horsesh!t crap about strawman.

Please, someone asking 'does this what you mean, and if so why stop there' doesnt mean they're purposely trying to derail your conversation. What's next, you argue the slippery slope argument instead?

And you should get gear for raids from 5 mans. DUH.


As for your question. It's pretty balanced right now. I can get some BiS in raids, some in M+, others through visions. M+ doesn't contain everything I need, nor does raiding. So this concept you're presenting isn't one I experience personally. I'm also do various other things to socket them while I farm them every week to see if I can get a socketed version first.

Harald of the Titans is a great example, yes. I had totally forgot about that one. It was darn fun.

As for you second part. I'll bite.

Wikipedia defines the Strawman fallacy as such:
"A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted."

He gave me opinions I didn't present in point 1 and 3, and then refuted these points, then he continued on to throwing insults. He didn't even adress anything I actually said.

Insulted as you may be on his behalf, could you maybe be just a little insulted on my behalf as well?

For your actual reply:

In my scenario, you would still be able to use everything you get, the only difference in whether it is bis or not is secondary stats or effects instead of ilvl.

Let me phrase it differently: would you still raid mythic in bfa if you could get max available ilvl gear from regular 5m dungeons?

[Trend]

He gave me opinions I didn't present in point 1 and 3, and then refuted these points, then he continued on to throwing insults. He didn't even adress anything I actually said.

Oh really? I even quoted what you said. I will do it again.

World first races wouldn't be about who can borrow the most gold and buy crafting mats and BoEs.

This sentence that you wrote implies that your “solution” would change the currently reality that world first races are about who can borrow the most gold to buy stuff. Who has the WF race been between? Limit and Method. If what you’re saying is true, if Limit and Method are at the top it is because they have the most borrowed gold. How else does your sentence make any sense?

Furthermore, you specifically refer to “crafting mats” purchasing as being part of determining world races and what could that be other than consumables? There is the crafted helm, but the cost of that is not that significant in terms of gold.

I literally addressed exactly what you said LOL. I quoted you and responded directly to the ideas that you presented. If you want to just say stuff without anyone being allowed to disagree with the points you make you are always going to have a hard time on forums. If you did not mean what you were implying, you could have responded logically without freaking out. An option that you had was to respond with “I was sloppy with how I expressed that, here is what I actually mean …” and we could have that conversation you claim you want to have.

Also, you have very thin skin. I “continued on to throwing insults”? LOL? Sick burn that I said it sounded like you PUG raid? Seriously I can’t even see anything else that I said that you could even pretend to be insulted by. Just FYI, if I think you are a PUG raider, that is not an insult.

[Tronski]

Oh really? I even quoted what you said. I will do it again.



This sentence that you wrote implies that your “solution” would change the currently reality that world first races are about who can borrow the most gold to buy stuff. Who has the WF race been between? Limit and Method. If what you’re saying is true, if Limit and Method are at the top it is because they have the most borrowed gold. How else does your sentence make any sense?

Furthermore, you specifically refer to “crafting mats” purchasing as being part of determining world races and what could that be other than consumables? There is the crafted helm, but the cost of that is not that significant in terms of gold.

I literally addressed exactly what you said LOL. I quoted you and responded directly to the ideas that you presented. If you want to just say stuff without anyone being allowed to disagree with the points you make you are always going to have a hard time on forums. If you did not mean what you were implying, you could have responded logically without freaking out. An option that you had was to respond with “I was sloppy with how I expressed that, here is what I actually mean …” and we could have that conversation you claim you want to have.

Also, you have very thin skin. I “continued on to throwing insults”? LOL? Sick burn that I said it sounded like you PUG raid? Seriously I can’t even see anything else that I said that you could even pretend to be insulted by. Just FYI, if I think you are a PUG raider, that is not an insult.

The part about world first races was a side note, a maybe positive side effect, and not in any way, shape or form what this thread was about, or a reason to implement it in or of itself.

As for this part: "So you think that Limit and Method were #1 and #2 because they borrowed the most gold? LOL, sure ok, but you don't understanding raiding at all."

I may not "understand raiding at all", but I do know that Method and Limit borrowed millions upon millions of gold to buy CRAFTING MATETRIALS so each raider could level up and unlearn several professions to craft high ilvl BoP gear to be able to manipulate loot drops and the trading of them.

You should probably read about it yourself here, because I didn't understand any of it: https://blizzardwatch.com/2019/02/08...first-raiding/

So no, seen how I wasn't talking about pots you didn't adress anything I was actually talking about, and quoting me initialer don't change that.

But to get back to what this thread was about,
I ask you the same thing: If mythic+ 10-15 would allow you to max your ilvl in all slots within a week, as opposed to 3 months, would you still raid mythic then?

Would you be done with it forever after one clear? What about mounts and cosmetic rewards?

[Trend]

The part about world first races was a side note, a maybe positive side effect, and not in any way, shape or form what this thread was about, or a reason to implement it in or of itself.

So you say something to back up the point you're trying to make and I should ignore it because "it's not what the thread is about"? That's not reasonable. If it wasn't relevant to the discussion then it should not have been said.

IMO, this goes back to the central flaw in the thread. Your "solution" begs for a problem. There is nothing that needs to be fixed with the basic gearing systems of mythic raiding (not talking about specifics like corruption.) Because there is no problem, to support your idea of a needless and destructive change you are pushed into saying absurd things like "World first races wouldn't be about who can borrow the most gold and buy crafting mats and BoEs." You can agree or disagree, but I think that statement is quite unreasonable. But instead of ever admitting that you stated that poorly and the clear connotations that are implied are not what you meant, you just freak out about how unfair I am to you.

I may not "understand raiding at all", but I do know that Method and Limit borrowed millions upon millions of gold to buy CRAFTING MATETRIALS so each raider could level up and unlearn several professions to craft high ilvl BoP gear to be able to manipulate loot drops and the trading of them.

You should probably read about it yourself here, because I didn't understand any of it: https://blizzardwatch.com/2019/02/08...first-raiding/

IIRC at the time of WF N’Zoth Limit had gone 189M gold into debt for BoE’s (with the right corruptions) and like another 20-30M on consumables. To me, I think it is clear which number is the issue and which isn’t and it’s a non-issue because corruption was horrible thing for BoE’s but it was a one-time thing.

You may underestimate how irrelevant tens of millions is for a guild that can do high end carries. Hundreds of millions though … that gets a bit extreme and I don’t think is a good thing. Hopefully Blizzard will learn from that but we’ll see.

Regardless, changing mythic raiding for 100,000 people because you’re trying to solve an issue for 100 people does not make sense. If you’re going to make a claim that there is some systemic problem with mythic raiding, the thesis should not be based on the WF race.

But to get back to what this thread was about,
I ask you the same thing: If mythic+ 10-15 would allow you to max your ilvl in all slots within a week, as opposed to 3 months, would you still raid mythic then?

Would you be done with it forever after one clear? What about mounts and cosmetic rewards?

Ilvl? For top end play you need the right itemization and corruptions, not ilvl. In any case, I don’t see how the point you’re trying to make fits your argument. If you cannot get better gear from mythic raiding than you can from heroic, you’ll be maxed out much sooner than you are now.

Personally I couldn’t care less about cosmetics and mounts and I raid even when there is no gear I need left to get. For the general population, commitment tends to taper off when the activity loses the promise of reward. That’s why keeping mythic raid gearing as it is makes the most sense.

[Garymorilix]

Short answer: no.

So let me translate this post for those who can only see very badly thought out idea.

OP basically means that gear should not matter for mythic raiding by basically removing loot from mythic raids.
The reason why he wants to do this is to lower the demand for BoE gear and boosts.
Why? Good question.

Literally the only argument presented for this is "it would be harder". I mean, yes, but so would running be if I cut off one leg.
Why would you break a system for no reason?
What is the issue that you are trying to "fix" with this change?

Nah.

[Tronski]

So you say something to back up the point you're trying to make and I should ignore it because "it's not what the thread is about"? That's not reasonable. If it wasn't relevant to the discussion then it should not have been said.

IMO, this goes back to the central flaw in the thread. Your "solution" begs for a problem. There is nothing that needs to be fixed with the basic gearing systems of mythic raiding (not talking about specifics like corruption.) Because there is no problem, to support your idea of a needless and destructive change you are pushed into saying absurd things like "World first races wouldn't be about who can borrow the most gold and buy crafting mats and BoEs." You can agree or disagree, but I think that statement is quite unreasonable. But instead of ever admitting that you stated that poorly and the clear connotations that are implied are not what you meant, you just freak out about how unfair I am to you.



IIRC at the time of WF N’Zoth Limit had gone 189M gold into debt for BoE’s (with the right corruptions) and like another 20-30M on consumables. To me, I think it is clear which number is the issue and which isn’t and it’s a non-issue because corruption was horrible thing for BoE’s but it was a one-time thing.

You may underestimate how irrelevant tens of millions is for a guild that can do high end carries. Hundreds of millions though … that gets a bit extreme and I don’t think is a good thing. Hopefully Blizzard will learn from that but we’ll see.

Regardless, changing mythic raiding for 100,000 people because you’re trying to solve an issue for 100 people does not make sense. If you’re going to make a claim that there is some systemic problem with mythic raiding, the thesis should not be based on the WF race.



Ilvl? For top end play you need the right itemization and corruptions, not ilvl. In any case, I don’t see how the point you’re trying to make fits your argument. If you cannot get better gear from mythic raiding than you can from heroic, you’ll be maxed out much sooner than you are now.

Personally I couldn’t care less about cosmetics and mounts and I raid even when there is no gear I need left to get. For the general population, commitment tends to taper off when the activity loses the promise of reward. That’s why keeping mythic raid gearing as it is makes the most sense.

Top guilds spending millions of gold in the world first race has been a problem long before corruptions were introduced, corruptions in its current form, and on BoE, was just a new level of stupidity.
My focus was a bit broader than this patch alone.

But at least you have admitted to the fact that world first is about spending gold. Does that mean you don't understand raiding at all either?

Also I've said several times: "same reward structure as now" you could still get gear with higher ilvl to be used other places (outdoor, heroic, m+, etc), it'll just scale down in mythic raids

I'm just trying to understand what you are saying here: You don't care about gear, you keep raiding when you don't need the gear, but you still want gear to matter? Sense of journey?

Did you not enjoy challenge modes in MoP and WoD?
(Personally, my only dislike was the timed adsect, which I also hate is the only thing they kept going into m+)

Why is it important that the gear to progress in a mythic raid is obtained in the same mythic raid?

Does it then bother you that mythic+ is the main source of gear for most?

Is longevity your primary concern?

Would it really be so horrible if gearing to get to the top tier content was a little bit quicker?
(I know WoD got a lot of shit for this exact reason)

Literally the only argument presented for this is "it would be harder". I mean, yes, but so would running be if I cut off one leg.
Why would you break a system for no reason?
What is the issue that you are trying to "fix" with this change?

Nah.

I assume you have been playing WoW long enough to know that every change isn't a fix.

Sometimes a change is just refreshing.

[Deja Thoris]

It's a shit idea.

I'm sorry if it hurts your feelies to be told this so directly.

[Eapoe]

Fun fact: of gear was handled with a cap then mythic would have to be tuned at Heroic difficulty to compensate. So therefore, you just made turned mythic into heroic but with a different name and cosmetics. I’ve seen this thread before titled as something different.
Bottom line is: no, most people would not welcome this change. Part of it is because some people like to push the hardest content. Some people reclear raids to do better than their last time and hold ranks. Some guilds reclear to sell gear, achievements, titles, and mounts, to get gold to supply their players with BoEs, flasks, and potions. Most people reclear because they don’t get their BiS gear on one clear of an instance.

The only people who would like this are raiders who can only clear heroic because then it’s the same difficulty with an added ability or two, which would still be tuned for heroic numbers.
It’s a bad idea.