Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Why do you take everything in the worst possible meaning all the time?
    HAHAHAHAHA

    That's really funny. I see what you did there. 10/10

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    HAHAHAHAHA

    That's really funny. I see what you did there. 10/10
    Try contributing for a change.
    What is the percentage of players participating in mythic raiding?

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Try contributing for a change.
    Oh, I thought you were trying to be funny. I guess not. My bad. In any case, people like you who just want an echo chamber tend to associate non-compliance with a lack of contribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    What is the percentage of players participating in mythic raiding?
    Which is related to what? And why would a percentage be relevant? And nobody but a relatively small number of people would be able to answer you because sub counts are not released by Blizzard. As far as how many people are raiding mythic? Last I looked there were very roughly 200k people doing at least the first wing in the average BfA raid tier. Of course to come up with any number you have to make assumptions.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    Oh, I thought you were trying to be funny. I guess not. My bad. In any case, people like you who just want an echo chamber tend to associate non-compliance with a lack of contribution.



    Which is related to what? And why would a percentage be relevant? And nobody but a relatively small number of people would be able to answer you because sub counts are not released by Blizzard. As far as how many people are raiding mythic? Last I looked there were very roughly 200k people doing at least the first wing in the average BfA raid tier. Of course to come up with any number you have to make assumptions.
    I don't want an echo chamber. The amount of questions I ask is proof of that. What I want is for, i.e. you, to contribute to the discussion instead of ridicule or nitpick on sidenotes. Literally, besides "no one likes idea u dumb", the only thing you have been talking about is gold spending on BoE in the 8.3 world first race. Clearly not what this thread is about, not even what my sidenote was about (as you could obviously still have bought BoEs with corruption even if ilvl had scaled down).

    The number of participants are interesting from a gameplay point if view. The main argument I see, even from you, is that people would simply not have enjoyed a system where ilvl was capped, and secondary stats would be the only upgrades to your gear in that mythic raid tier. Yet, despite this being the case, challenge mode in MoP had more than 10% participation from the whole playerbase. A mode where the ONLY reward was a class specific transmog set - we can only speculate what those numbers had looked like if you had a reward structure like M+ / weekly chest as well.

    And I want to be very clear about this, I know raids and dungeons are two very different game modes. It's easier to coordinate 5m than 20m. But the underlying point still stands, accessibility is a good thing for any game mode. We want more players engaging in mythic raiding.

    Replayability is a factor, of course, and that's why I have been asking: what kind of rewards would make you want to keep playing a game mode with capped ilvl?

    I am having a real hard time with accepting the notion that "Oh boy, we sure got our asses handed to us by the third boss this week, maybe we'll get enough upgrades from the first two bosses next week to stand a chance then" is a thing that makes people want to replay it week after week, rather than being "forced" to do so.
    Last edited by Tronski; 2020-08-11 at 11:03 PM.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Replayability is a factor, of course, and that's why I have been asking: what kind of rewards would make you want to keep playing a game mode with capped ilvl?
    Gear with uncapped ilvls.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    Gear with uncapped ilvls.
    Awesome!
    That's what I have been suggesting as a reward, as well!
    Last edited by Tronski; 2020-08-11 at 11:05 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    I don't want an echo chamber. The amount of questions I ask is proof of that. What I want is for, i.e. you, to contribute to the discussion instead of ridicule or nitpick on sidenotes. Literally, besides "no one likes idea u dumb", the only thing you have been talking about is gold spending on BoE in the 8.3 world first race. Clearly not what this thread is about, not even what my sidenote was about (as you could obviously still have bought BoEs with corruption even if ilvl had scaled down).
    You are completely dishonest. There have been a lot of reasons given by myself and others and you have disregarded them all and you find excuses not to deal with the ideas brought up. You make bullshit complaints about straw men when you are directly quoted by pretending it does not matter what you say to back up your bad idea. You are wanting to remove a core MMO concept from a very heavily participated activity without acknowledging that fact. You are pretending that problems exist where they do not so you can justify your bad idea. Go ahead and keep doing the same and pretend it's everyone else fault that the 'conversation' is going nowhere.

    I doubt that you have ever done progression raiding because it seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how things work and why they work. That you go on to compare mythic raiding to MoP challenge modes reinforces my opinion that you don't even know what you don't know about.

    Good luck. I am done with you. All your interactions in this thread have demonstrated your unwillingness to interact with contrary viewpoints.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Assuming same strength of mythic raid drops as today, but that they would only make you stronger outside of mythic raids, and would in no way help towards completing the mythic raid, save for optimal secondary stats and trinnet effects.
    So what's the point of getting those best items if they don't even work in the hardest raid difficulty?

    And what's the logic behind allowing it in m+, which at highest levels is much harder than a mythic raid?

    Not a good idea.

    Also, this whole thread is a bit sad of a spectacle. OP comes up with a pretty ridiculous idea, struggles to come up with good arguments as to why it even makes sense according to them, but they get super offended on what seems to be a personal level when people point out more and more flaws and disadvantages he never even thought of. I understand some people believe sticking to your guns is a virtue, but sometimes just admitting you were wrong means you're a bigger person
    Last edited by Azerate; 2020-08-12 at 12:04 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    You are completely dishonest. There have been a lot of reasons given by myself and others and you have disregarded them all and you find excuses not to deal with the ideas brought up. You make bullshit complaints about straw men when you are directly quoted by pretending it does not matter what you say to back up your bad idea. You are wanting to remove a core MMO concept from a very heavily participated activity without acknowledging that fact. You are pretending that problems exist where they do not so you can justify your bad idea. Go ahead and keep doing the same and pretend it's everyone else fault that the 'conversation' is going nowhere.

    I doubt that you have ever done progression raiding because it seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how things work and why they work. That you go on to compare mythic raiding to MoP challenge modes reinforces my opinion that you don't even know what you don't know about.

    Good luck. I am done with you. All your interactions in this thread have demonstrated your unwillingness to interact with contrary viewpoints.
    Lol, good talk about dishonesty and "unwillingness to interact" while yet again misquoting me and ignoring everything I actually said that wasn't about you. And you even managed to get in a few personal insults as well.

    FYI, me disregarding your bullshit is not the same as me disregarding every other counterargument, which I so clearly haven't. Like I said, all the questions I ask is proof of that.
    Literally the first thing I said to you was: "please stop derailing" because you weren't even in the ballpark. I've asked you several direct questions and you have ignored every single one, except the one you could guess the answer to. I can only hope that you at least stay true to your last words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Gear is an organic nerf to the raid. Anyone advocating for its removal should answer how to tune the raid then. There is a gigantic difference in skill between world rank 1 and 10. Between 10 and 100. Between 100 and 1000. If you tune the raid to rank 1 skill it can't be beaten by rank 10. If you tune it to rank 10 it can't be beaten by 100 but also will be a pushover for the world first race.

    So how do you want to tune it and also how do you want the nerfs happen if gear doesn't do the job anymore?
    I personally don't see the point in even having the game balanced around the top 2000 players.
    Maybe I'm completely off the main stream opinion, but I'm not any more excited about world first races lasting a week than I was back when they lasted a day. If the top players in the world destroy the content because it was too easy for them, is that really a problem?

    I totally agree with the notion that gear is an organic nerf, and while optimizing secondary stats still counts as an organic nerf it might not be enough if the content is too hard. Which ultimately means that the content can't be too tightly tuned either. That, or secondary stats have to matter more, but that felt bad in Legion.
    That in mind, it does puzzle me that most people in this thread would refuse to play a mode where the the upgrades needed to perform higher numbers are measured in x (stat balance) instead of y (ilvl), as if that isn't exactly what was the case in Challenge mode, trial mode and timewalking. And it's not like you aren't aiming for the right secondary stats in regular play either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    So what's the point of getting those best items if they don't even work in the hardest raid difficulty?

    And what's the logic behind allowing it in m+, which at highest levels is much harder than a mythic raid?

    Not a good idea.

    Also, this whole thread is a bit sad of a spectacle. OP comes up with a pretty ridiculous idea, struggles to come up with good arguments as to why it even makes sense according to them, but they get super offended on what seems to be a personal level when people point out more and more flaws and disadvantages he never even thought of. I understand some people believe sticking to your guns is a virtue, but sometimes just admitting you were wrong means you're a bigger person
    You answered your own question. It would be better suited for M+ because it scales upwards and gets much harder than mythic raids.

    I also partially agree with you on the sad spectacle part, but I disagree with your reasoning. I am not personally offended by anything in this thread, but that doesn't mean I'm not against theowing insults instead of arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    No it's not. It's an admission that character progression, of which gear makes up a huge component once levels are capped, is a core part of RPG game design, including WoW's. If this was another game and end-game wasn't designed around gear progression in place of level progression than it might make more sense, but it's not.

    That progression and gear treadmill can take place on any difficulty tier and content type. It isn't unique to mythic raiding, nor does it have to be. But removing it from mythic raiding only would remove an important aspect of the game for those who do play on that tier, and for literally no positives.


    I don't think that's a particularly great example since ICC had both. It's not an either/or situation. Hardmode (25man heroic, the equivalent of what would be mythic now) dropped higher ilvl loot than regular 25man which dropped better than 10man. Gearing up as they moved through the fights still provided the same soft nerfs to the fight difficulty, just as mythic raiding does today.

    Blizz just also implemented a 5% buff too, but probably because it was a very long tier and why not push as many raiders through as possible. IIRC it's not the only tier they've done stuff like that with either.
    I hear you. I didn't ask about this concept specifically to solve any problems. As I said earlier, not every new feature is a fix that everyone loves. Removing one feature and replace it with another always feels bad for someone, but isn't unprecedented

    Progression comes in many ways, especially true in BfA. Let's say mythic was gearcapped at 460 in 8.3:
    You could still farm for optimal secondary stats and trinkets.
    You could still power up your heart of azeroth, unlocking stronger essences and azerite armor traits.
    And you could still get new corruptions.
    You would still become stronger, only difference is that you'd have one additional option to farm for character progression outside of mythic raids.

    In this setting, I think the ICC buff approach would also work very well if the tuning is too tight, but it would also sort of defeat the purpose.
    Last edited by Tronski; 2020-08-12 at 02:21 AM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Lol, good talk about dishonesty and "unwillingness to interact" while yet again misquoting me and ignoring everything I actually said that wasn't about you. And you even managed to get in a few personal insults as well.

    FYI, me disregarding your bullshit is not the same as me disregarding every other counterargument, which I so clearly haven't. Like I said, all the questions I ask is proof of that.
    Literally the first thing I said to you was: "please stop derailing" because you weren't even in the ballpark. I've asked you several direct questions and you have ignored every single one, except the one you could guess the answer to. I can only hope that you at least stay true to your last words.



    I personally don't see the point in even having the game balanced around the top 2000 players.
    Maybe I'm completely off the main stream opinion, but I'm not any more excited about world first races lasting a week than I was back when they lasted a day. If the top players in the world destroy the content because it was too easy for them, is that really a problem?

    I totally agree with the notion that gear is an organic nerf, and while optimizing secondary stats still counts as an organic nerf it might not be enough if the content is too hard. Which ultimately means that the content can't be too tightly tuned either. That, or secondary stats have to matter more, but that felt bad in Legion.
    That in mind, it does puzzle me that most people in this thread would refuse to play a mode where the the upgrades needed to perform higher numbers are measured in x (stat balance) instead of y (ilvl), as if that isn't exactly what was the case in Challenge mode, trial mode and timewalking. And it's not like you aren't aiming for the right secondary stats in regular play either.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You answered your own question. It would be better suited for M+ because it scales upwards and gets much harder than mythic raids.

    I also partially agree with you on the sad spectacle part, but I disagree with your reasoning. I am not personally offended by anything in this thread, but that doesn't mean I'm not against theowing insults instead of arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I hear you. I didn't ask about this concept specifically to solve any problems. As I said earlier, not every new feature is a fix that everyone loves. Removing one feature and replace it with another always feels bad for someone, but isn't unprecedented

    Progression comes in many ways, especially true in BfA. Let's say mythic was gearcapped at 460 in 8.3:
    You could still farm for optimal secondary stats and trinkets.
    You could still power up your heart of azeroth, unlocking stronger essences and azerite armor traits.
    And you could still get new corruptions.
    You would still become stronger, only difference is that you'd have one additional option to farm for character progression outside of mythic raids.

    In this setting, I think the ICC monthly buff approach would also work very well.

    You seem extremely personally offended you did not find the echo chamber you so desperately seek.

    Move on friend, no one likes/wants your idea. Its not the end of the world.

  11. #71
    No thanks, personal power progression is a core part of any RPG and the extent to which you can go being tied to the content difficulty is the right thing to do as well.

    It's one of the things that work well in WoW and there is absolute 0 reason to turn WoW into Guild Wars after all these years for god knows what reason.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    You seem extremely personally offended you did not find the echo chamber you so desperately seek.

    Move on friend, no one likes/wants your idea. Its not the end of the world.
    That and you really need to take a break @Tronski.

    Trend is right about you. The very first reply he made to your first outcry post illustrates well of a person who doesn't think before they speak/write.

    Your rebuttal here on page 4 is riddled with adjectives that don't even belong in half the places they appear in.


    So, examples where you were wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Lol, good talk about dishonesty and "unwillingness to interact" while yet again misquoting me and ignoring everything I actually said that wasn't about you. And you even managed to get in a few personal insults as well.
    He was willing to interact. In fact pointed out exactly what was wrong in your first attempt of rebuttal. Didn't misquote. And didn't really insult you until you lashed out, if even then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    FYI, me disregarding your bullshit is not the same as me disregarding every other counterargument, which I so clearly haven't. Like I said, all the questions I ask is proof of that.
    Literally the first thing I said to you was: "please stop derailing" because you weren't even in the ballpark. I've asked you several direct questions and you have ignored every single one, except the one you could guess the answer to. I can only hope that you at least stay true to your last words.
    You're not disregarding his ########, you're trying to twist reality. Which in turn makes this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    You are completely dishonest.
    True, and you, wrong.


    Stop embarrassing yourself. It's getting sad. It was funny up to the end of page 1/start of page 2 but you're actually serious.


    My 2cents on the topic.

    Your idea is bad. You don't understand the main underlying principle of this type of game.

  13. #73
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    436
    No because after the initial push guilds, the only way most players get Mythic Done is by Over Gearing the encounters.
    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
    Best Duo Ever
    Go Fast or Go Slow

    Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
    Battle Station Light or Battle Station Dark




  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    What would the mythic raiding scene look like if gear was capped somewhere around the base level of heroic raid drops? (Think challenge mode of MoP / WoD)

    You could farm heroic/mythic to max your gear slots, but there would be a hard cap to how stronk you could get.

    Assuming same strength of mythic raid drops as today, but that they would only make you stronger outside of mythic raids, and would in no way help towards completing the mythic raid, save for optimal secondary stats and trinnet effects.

    Would you still raid mythic?
    Would you have kept farming it for the mounts, cosmetics and imba gear for mythic+ pushing?

    Difficulty would obviously have to be balanced around this gear cap, but still harder than heroic and with added mechanics.

    Thanks goodness you are not designer for blizzard. This would be a huge turn off and certain death sentence to the playerbase. Absolutely fucking Not good idea.

  15. #75
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Essex-ish
    Posts
    6,060
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    What would the mythic raiding scene look like if gear was capped somewhere around the base level of heroic raid drops (think challenge mode of MoP / WoD)? You could farm heroic/mythic to max your gear slots, but there would be a hard cap to how strong you could get.
    I'm of the opinion that Mythic raids should be removed; this would be an acceptable first step.

    A tiny percentage of players raid non-LFR difficulties, and of those, a tiny percentage of players complete Mythic raids. Either the difficulty is there for the prestige, or to widen the gap between tiers; neither of these are very convincing arguments to retain the difficulty based upon its exposure.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/T/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/0/1 | Mafia: 1/6/0/7 | TPR: 0/4/1/5
    SK: 0/1/0/1 | VT: 2/5/2/7 | Cult: 1/0/0/1

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •