Thread: C'thun down

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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Adramalech View Post
    Wait, what? You're saying Classic was harder mechanically? Not from a logistics point, or from a raw numbers point, but from a mechanics point?

    ... That's a new one.
    Vanilla was harder than Classic. Do you even know the difference between the two? They aren't the same, period.
    Last edited by Majestic12; 2020-08-05 at 01:46 PM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by aeuhe4yxzhds View Post
    Just ran The Eternal Palace on mythic, was piss easy. Dont see what was so hard for method that they couldn't kill it on first try, we did it. I guess they're just bad




    It becomes piss easy when you're doing 3 times the damage anyone did back then. Just like doing any previous raids on retail is easy when you have so much gear.

    They're were doing over 1000 damage per second. That just ignores a lot of any difficulty, when healers can spam heal and not run out of mana during an encounter, its hard for any mistake to happen.

    When you spend so much time making something easier, it just becomes piss easy.
    These are huge false equivalencies. The extra dps on classic is using things that were available in vanilla, it's just that nobody went that extra mile.

    And getting more gear on retail helps a LOT more because the item level is so inflated.

    To use an example, Monstrosity's Shipbreaker from mythic EP is a 432.5 dps weapon. https://www.wowhead.com/item=168478/...onus=4800:1517

    Heroic Devastation's Hour, (Not mythic, heroic.) is a 545.8 dps weapon. https://www.wowhead.com/item=172187/...onus=4823:1502

    That is almost a 25% dps difference. Not to mention corruptions, which in top parses usually account for 50% or more of the dps. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&source=325

    So let's look at weapons in classic. How about Ashkandi? 81.86 dps weapon. https://classic.wowhead.com/item=193...he-brotherhood

    Let's compare that to Might of Menethil. The best weapon in the game off KT. 95.26 dps. https://classic.wowhead.com/item=227...ht-of-menethil

    That's about a 17% dps increase.

    The gear is mostly the same as what people had back then, but even if you gave them full Naxx loot for BWL, that still would not be as big of an increase as having even heroic Ny'alotha gear with no corruptions.

    And yes, there were talent changes, but all of the significant ones except for rogue happened with the BWL patch. https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patches/1.x

    So doing mythic EP in current Ny'alotha gear is more equivalent to doing AQ 40 at level 70, in Black Temple gear.

  3. #103
    The Lightbringer Adramalech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    Vanilla was harder. Do you even know the difference between the two?
    I don't have an appropriate reaction to this, so I'm just going to "lol" and leave this headache to someone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    As a warlock, allow me to be the first to say that I get tremendous amounts of joy from watching fear pathing take you to Africa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    Vanilla was harder. Do you even know the difference between the two?
    Please do enlighten us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adramalech View Post
    I don't have an appropriate reaction to this, so I'm just going to "lol" and leave this headache to someone else.
    Don't worry, I'll handle it. I feed off this shit.

  5. #105
    Immortal TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    It was harder mechanically, we know this objectively. If you claim otherwise, you're just clueless because you have zero clue of the details at hand.

    Sucks to be ignorant.
    How the hell is Classic harder mechanically??? Last time I raided in retail you had to keep a track of numerous buffs/debuffs, procs, decide when to use numerous trinkets or cds, watch out for a lot more boss mechanics, manage a harder rotation, all whilst fighting tight enrage timers. You don't have to do any of that in Classic, it's unreal easy in every way.

    Not sure how anyone can claim otherwise.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    HAHAHAH! All those apologists claiming no one ever claimed Classic would be difficult, and now there is one claiming Classic is more mechanically difficult than Retail!

    This is priceless comedy!
    Did you even read the quote? He's trying to dispel that Vanilla was harder than Classic, which it was, objectively.

    I didn't say shit about Retail except that it has fewer raiders than Classic. Which says a lot by the way.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    There's a huge difference between modern raid bosses and the older shit. Lumping mythic KJ in with the vanilla bosses is kind of dumb.
    It was just a joke. Geez.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    Did you even read the quote? He's trying to dispel that Vanilla was harder than Classic, which it was, objectively.

    I didn't say shit about Retail except that it has fewer raiders than Classic. Which says a lot by the way.
    Ahh, ignore my post. Completely misunderstood.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    How the hell is Classic harder mechanically??? Last time I raided in retail you had to keep a track of numerous buffs/debuffs, procs, decide when to use numerous trinkets or cds, watch out for a lot more boss mechanics, manage a harder rotation, all whilst fighting tight enrage timers. You don't have to do any of that in Classic, it's unreal easy in every way.

    Not sure how anyone can claim otherwise.
    I think he means that vanilla was harder than classic, not that classic is harder than retail. I hope that's what he means anyway. On the off chance that that's not the case, I'm gonna link a video of a real boss, for any classic players that just don't understand that retail and vanilla/classic are worlds apart in terms of difficulty.



    And mythic Gul'dan isn't even considered to be one of the hardest of all time. Just a solid boss from a fairly recent expansion.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    I think he means that vanilla was harder than classic, not that classic is harder than retail. I hope that's what he means anyway. On the off chance that that's not the case, I'm gonna link a video of a real boss, for any classic players that just don't understand that retail and vanilla/classic are worlds apart in terms of difficulty.



    And mythic Gul'dan isn't even considered to be one of the hardest of all time. Just a solid boss from a fairly recent expansion.
    Well, now knowing what the argument is actually about haha. Vanilla was harder then Classic, as he said, it is a fact. Classic has a lot of changes to many things that have dumbed it down, but saying that on its own implies that Vanilla is still hard. Whilst harder than Classic, I think it's a near guaranteed fact that it would go the same way if released. Sure, maybe not as many people would be killing the bosses, but the top/better guilds would still steamroll it.

    I don't think anyone can compare some of the most recent retail bosses to any iteration of fights on Classic or Vanilla, it's just not feasible to do so. They are definitely miles apart in terms of complexity and mechanical difficulty.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Because before Classic was released people saying that Classic raid was ultra hard were in every single thread. So we gotta remember how ignorant and biased those people were. Its fun to be proven right and shove it in your face.
    Worth noting that for many of those people, their frame of reference was built off A Certain Private Server's* tuning, which said server's devs openly admitted was overtuned to keep their server challenging for experienced Vanilla private server players as well as to provide a tougher experience to bite into for players alienated by retail's easier level grind. There was a lot of guesswork involved on their end, too, as they had little if any of the server-side information to work with, and they'd always err on the side of making it a little bit harder.

    Classic, on the flip side, is balanced around Blizzard's internal 1.12 client, which they refer to on a semi-regular basis if people mention something feeling off even though it matches up with the internal client. So for players used to A Certain Private Server's core (which quickly became the go-to core for Vanilla private servers after its devs released the core), Classic is noticeably easier, and strats that were developed in response to the increased difficulty in that server are crushing the historically-accurate 1.12 Classic difficulty balance.

    * Note: I know typically discussing private servers is a no-no, and by no means am I attempting to promote their use. However, context is important in discussions like this and many of the Classic guilds crushing raids on release day have done so using strategies and experience cultivated on those servers. This context is important to keep in mind when many posters were discussing Classic's hypothetical difficulty, as even unintentionally, it can color one's memories of the original content. Even for those who never played on one, the experiences of those who did and their rhetoric dovetailing nicely with their memories of a more difficult experience (typically due to inexperience with the game) can form a sort of Mandela Effect.

    What we're seeing now is just how much those private servers overtuned their content since they also used 1.12 as the building patch for balance and class design.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    FYI, already deleted by these guys https://www.twitch.tv/cigarzz
    your post is over 10 years too late.

    nice try though?

  13. #113
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    Did you even read the quote? He's trying to dispel that Vanilla was harder than Classic, which it was, objectively.

    I didn't say shit about Retail except that it has fewer raiders than Classic. Which says a lot by the way.
    Which it doesn't have, you forget the huge amount of people who raid LFR, as well as the many normal/HC raiders who do not use tools that allows 3rd party sites to track them.

    And Vanilla had the same mechanics as Classic, there's nothing that's more difficult about them than what came later. It was just a case of players being new and ignorant.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2020-08-05 at 02:02 PM.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    I think he means that vanilla was harder than classic, not that classic is harder than retail. I hope that's what he means anyway. On the off chance that that's not the case, I'm gonna link a video of a real boss, for any classic players that just don't understand that retail and vanilla/classic are worlds apart in terms of difficulty.



    And mythic Gul'dan isn't even considered to be one of the hardest of all time. Just a solid boss from a fairly recent expansion.
    Yes, you got it right. I replied to the fact that he tried dispelling that Classic is not a true representation of Vanilla, which it isn't in terms of numbers.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Which it doesn't have, you forget the huge amount of people who raid LFR, as well as the many normal/HC raiders who do not use tools that allows 3rd party sites to track them.

    And Vanilla had the same mechanics as Classic, there's nothing that's more difficult about them than what came later.
    Nope. Ragnaros was different and quite a bit harder. There are other examples, but I can't recall them off the top of my head. Not to mention how the debuff limit and talents have altered the difficulty.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    Yes, you got it right. I replied to the fact that he tried dispelling that Classic is not a true representation of Vanilla, which it isn't in terms of numbers.
    The difference between vanilla and classic is really really really tiny.

    If we got a progressive patch cycle, MC would have been a little harder due to the weaker talents. Most notably Bloodthirst being not a thing. The biggest change with AQ40 would be that rogues would do less damage which would just mean that top guilds would bring less of them.

    You're talking about a ~20-30% overall damage nerf in the most extreme cases. Still enough to 1 phase Rag easily. Still enough to do all the stupid bullshit we saw in classic.

  17. #117
    The Lightbringer Adramalech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    Did you even read the quote? He's trying to dispel that Vanilla was harder than Classic, which it was, objectively.

    I didn't say shit about Retail except that it has fewer raiders than Classic. Which says a lot by the way.
    My bad on that, apologies. I still don't see how they're any different mechanically though. They're literally the same game, any potential nerfs between C'thun and 1.12 would be on numbers as far as I recall from memory. Surely you're not counting C'thun's bugs being fixed as mechanical challenge being removed.

    If you want to go fetch patch notes to prove that, be my guest, but I don't feel invested enough in that :\
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    As a warlock, allow me to be the first to say that I get tremendous amounts of joy from watching fear pathing take you to Africa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Twinking is like going back to school when you are 30, just to be smarter than the other kids.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Tantaburs View Post
    Of course the people who already did it could do it again but that isn't what's happening in classic. People who never touched vanilla are easily clearing raids in classic. I assure you I could take my scuffed mythic raid team and we would smash classic raids without an issue. Classic raids and classic classes are just mechanically much simpler than they are in retail WoW its not really debatable. Compare the rotation of any retail class to their classic counterpart. Compare the mechanic list of any raid boss is Classic to Mythic Azshara.

    Classic is logistically difficult. You have to organize large groups, there is much more limited gear, and everything takes more time. 4 horseman wasn't hard because of mechanics it was hard because you "needed" (we'll see if you still do) 8 tanks. If you took a cutting edge guild from retail I assure you they could kill every bit of content in classic I very much doubt the same is true the other way.
    If you know anything about classic, the guilds going for these world's fastest clears have all played the private servers multiple times. Guilds like Apes and Grizzly are easily recognizable, these aren't brand new guys - in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any raiding guilds that haven't had a good amount of players that were on the private servers. Not to mention that in the rare occasion that they do bring in someone brand new, they tell the people what to do on the encounters, where to go for gear, etc.

    I'm not disagreeing that the retail raids do have more complex mechanics than classic, that being said if players have a chance to do the mechanics for months ahead of time, it's not going to be nearly as difficult to kill stuff the 20th time around. How often do you see a guild that gets a world first on a certain boss be unable to kill the same boss the following week? I can't imagine too often. Also the inverse is true, I was a classic player and was able to kill hard mode/mythic bosses. I wouldn't say it was a cake walk but in many instances the concept of difficulty is over stated.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If you know anything about classic, the guilds going for these world's fastest clears have all played the private servers multiple times. Guilds like Apes and Grizzly are easily recognizable, these aren't brand new guys - in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any raiding guilds that haven't had a good amount of players that were on the private servers. Not to mention that in the rare occasion that they do bring in someone brand new, they tell the people what to do on the encounters, where to go for gear, etc.

    I'm not disagreeing that the retail raids do have more complex mechanics than classic, that being said if players have a chance to do the mechanics for months ahead of time, it's not going to be nearly as difficult to kill stuff the 20th time around. How often do you see a guild that gets a world first on a certain boss be unable to kill the same boss the following week? I can't imagine too often. Also the inverse is true, I was a classic player and was able to kill hard mode/mythic bosses. I wouldn't say it was a cake walk but in many instances the concept of difficulty is over stated.
    It's uncommon for guilds to be unable to kill the end boss the week after they kill it, but the first 5 or so rekills are usually a many hours long clown fiesta. And retail usually has mechanics that buff player gear every week aside from your typical gear drops from raid.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    And Vanilla had the same mechanics as Classic, there's nothing that's more difficult about them than what came later. It was just a case of players being new and ignorant.
    You obviously don't know the details and how patch progression was a massive deal in vanilla.

    For instance, the plus spell damage gear on greens, which was bis gear in many places, wouldn't even exist. Revised talent trees the same and every single item in the dungeons being in their final form in terms of itemization Kronos style. The numbers for what you can pull off in Classic compared to Vanilla aren't even remotely the same.

    Handwaving everything and saying that players were trash and that's it is so ignorant when you look at the actual details of the game.

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