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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    Its your Wuf Wuf WR 900 guild that tryhard while being bad this causes frustration and what they try to do is to recoute ppl that can carry them but those ppl only gear up and jump into a way better guild its a Cycle.
    My Guild in the WR 30s makes jokes even on progress wehn someone fucks up (like xanesh balls) Hell even limit did make fun of their players fucking up balls on a WF race you can look up the youtube vids. Get into a better guild with a leadership that has more than 30 iq and they wont tryhard/rage or tolarate it.
    It was and I've been in the 10s I know how absurd it seems but I'm in another guild now. Honestly the higher I go the better it seems to get.

    I think my mistake was joining a obvious feeder guild.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It was and I've been in the 10s I know how absurd it seems but I'm in another guild now. Honestly the higher I go the better it seems to get.

    I think my mistake was joining a obvious feeder guild.
    A lot of it has to do with simple fact that the higher you go the faster the progression is done. For us, with our rank 430 it took about 3 months total with our 2x3 weekly schedule, I think.

    So, like, it's not that we have been edgy even during progression, but now we basically have mounts for everyone and farm takes about 2 hours, so there is little point being anal about anything really. And we do not force specs and shit as is anyway, the only requirement we ever had was a single weekly M+ during progression just because it had a chance at useful for progression gear.

    But even the more accomplished guild, the reality is that the whole "pressure" (if that) period is just a month and a bit long per raid tier, after which it's just chill mode anyway.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And yet it had the same mechanics and still was more popular.
    It doesn't change that 10man was objectively and intentionally easier than 25 man in wrath and ergo not 'top-end raiding' which is the point of any comment I made in respect to wrath.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Despite 10man giving worse gear in WoTLK it was still more popular than 25man, for the very obvious reason that the logistics of getting 10 people together is significantly less difficult than getting 25 people together. The raids themselves were harder in 10man for some fights when they decided to eliminate the loot differences in Cata and MoP, due to fight mechanics or tuning (some encounters were harder in 25man too, Blizz has never pefectly balanced anything).

    The logistical difficulty of 25man being the primary reason for people to prefer 10man raiding is a premise you seem dead set on rejecting, no matter what
    Of course, 10 man was more popular then 25 man, 25 man guilds can still do 10 man and as you mentioned the logistics issue is just not there. I mean M+ is more popular then mythic raiding and dungeons are more popular then raiding for the same reason. But I'm not (nor have I been) arguing popularity.

    My arguments are as follows;
    1. Normalising 10/25 had a massive net negative impact on on the raiding community

    2. Normalised 10/25 had a negative impact on not only encounter design but was also unbalanceable which ultimately why it was scrapped.

    I'm not saying you can't have enjoyed 10 man raiding or that none of your points had any merit, I can even see your position. But ultimately everyone has to accept it's possible for them to like and thing and that same thing being on the whole bad.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    It killed off the 25man raiding scene, yes. I would like you to back up the claim that WotLK->Cata had more raiding guilds die than MoP->WoD did though with some actual numbers, I'm not fond of believing in unsubstantiated claims about numbers.
    Since you're asking for numbers that really don't exist, I tend to go back to this thread (that was completely ignored when posted) where somebody actually did compare numbers from WotLK moving into Cata:

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...LK-through-MoP

    A few things:

    25M was still more popular in WotLK than 10M. There were more 10M guilds but you have to account for the fact that there were 2.5 times more players in every 25M guild so the number of people participating in 25M guilds was still immeasurably higher.

    The other thing that kind of fucked over a lot of guilds was the stupid "guild leveling" system Blizzard introduced in Cata. It was much easier for 25M guilds to get the higher level perks earlier and, yet again, this just made the incentive to raid in 10M ever more appealing. The only thing that's abundantly clear is that gear parity between 10- and 25M was universally detrimental to larger raid teams.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    The only way I can keep playing is pay 55$ for faction change, downsize to the guilds that are really low rank or reroll to fotm range dps to get a spot in the small amount of guilds that exist on my faction.

    And I'm not the only person going through this, I know people who got kicked / perma benched from guilds for similar reasons, 1 guy was a ret pala, another one was again a spriest, in both cases guilds sidelined them because they weren't a fotm class. Anyone who thinks people playing non-fotm specs aren't treated like this probably doesn't raid mythic.
    .
    I play a Boomkin in a top 30 guild the litral worst range dps spec in the game whats your point lol? i think its a bad logs l2p issue on your part if you cant find a guild
    Last edited by Feral Druid ist Op; 2020-08-11 at 08:31 PM.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Since you're asking for numbers that really don't exist, I tend to go back to this thread (that was completely ignored when posted) where somebody actually did compare numbers from WotLK moving into Cata:

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...LK-through-MoP

    A few things:

    25M was still more popular in WotLK than 10M. There were more 10M guilds but you have to account for the fact that there were 2.5 times more players in every 25M guild so the number of people participating in 25M guilds was still immeasurably higher.

    The other thing that kind of fucked over a lot of guilds was the stupid "guild leveling" system Blizzard introduced in Cata. It was much easier for 25M guilds to get the higher level perks earlier and, yet again, this just made the incentive to raid in 10M ever more appealing. The only thing that's abundantly clear is that gear parity between 10- and 25M was universally detrimental to larger raid teams.
    You're using facts wrong. More people raided 25M in WOTLK because back then it dropped higher ilvl items than 10M did. From ulduar and onwards, 10m hardmodes dropped items of ilvl similar to 25m normal mode.

  7. #87
    Everything is about min maxing now. People can't play for the fun of it. It's all about being competitive even if you are far from being at the top.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    You're using facts wrong. More people raided 25M in WOTLK because back then it dropped higher ilvl items than 10M did. From ulduar and onwards, 10m hardmodes dropped items of ilvl similar to 25m normal mode.
    The loot tables were different and the items which dropped in 25M were almost always universally better than what dropped in 10M Heroic. Full-on gear parity didn't happen until T11 and that's when you can very clearly see the absolute decimation of larger raid teams.

  9. #89
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Since you're asking for numbers that really don't exist, I tend to go back to this thread (that was completely ignored when posted) where somebody actually did compare numbers from WotLK moving into Cata:

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...LK-through-MoP

    A few things:

    25M was still more popular in WotLK than 10M. There were more 10M guilds but you have to account for the fact that there were 2.5 times more players in every 25M guild so the number of people participating in 25M guilds was still immeasurably higher.

    The other thing that kind of fucked over a lot of guilds was the stupid "guild leveling" system Blizzard introduced in Cata. It was much easier for 25M guilds to get the higher level perks earlier and, yet again, this just made the incentive to raid in 10M ever more appealing. The only thing that's abundantly clear is that gear parity between 10- and 25M was universally detrimental to larger raid teams.
    Yeah, I know I'm asking for facts that likely don't exist; the person I was asking asserted that there were some sort of numbers to back up their claim. I was calling them out on that and requesting they either put up the numbers or admit they were making them up, either way my goal was a direct response from them. You answering doesn't deal with the key issue that I was addressing: Someone making unsubstantiated claims about numbers.

    I've largely been providing nothing but personal perspective with it being blatantly obvious that it is my subjective opinion, I don't like when people start making numbers up to try to prop up their opinion, especially when they start throwing in shit like "10man was cancer" into their post. Making up numbers to suit personal bias is not something I'm very tolerant of, hence why I requested specifically that they provide numbers to back their claim up.
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    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
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    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  10. #90
    I used to raid with a US top-30 guild (TBC-WOTLK). It was great, there was as you describe a sense of comradery and family even. My most recent bought into high-end raiding left me feeling burned out and a little salty (8.0-8.1) but I wouldn't blame the guild I was with. I'd say it's because the game is designed now to treat you like a hamster on a wheel and items, mechanics, and class identity are homogenized with the exception of power levels (gear, crap like OG Azerite, etc). Back in the day you could catch up with a helpful guild are feel like your part of something. Now you grind and grind and end up exactly where everyone else is but end up behind the curve if you slack off for a bit or have other priorities for a couple weeks and it feels awful.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    The loot tables were different and the items which dropped in 25M were almost always universally better than what dropped in 10M Heroic. Full-on gear parity didn't happen until T11 and that's when you can very clearly see the absolute decimation of larger raid teams.
    What decimaction, no lol, people just went to do things they want. If you are talking about having less and less guilds playing then you are again wrong because since Wotlk -> Mop there was like half of entire playerbase. Wotlk had nearly 12M players while MoP had 7.5.

    Meanwhile using wowprogress
    T15 - 10 man - 4578 guilds on 13/13H
    T15 - 25 man - 366 guilds on 13/13H

    EP - 20 man - 1103 guilds on 8/8M

    24% when we take mid-expansion raids in comparison

    It is clear as a day, that people do prefer 10 mans over 25/20. Even if we consider that we have half of mop playerbase 10 man still had more people back then

    Lets assume for clarity
    7.5M in MoP = 0.6% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 10 man
    3.75M in BfA = 0.58% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 20 man

    And that is not even counting 25 mans in MoP.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    What decimaction, no lol, people just went to do things they want. If you are talking about having less and less guilds playing then you are again wrong because since Wotlk -> Mop there was like half of entire playerbase. Wotlk had nearly 12M players while MoP had 7.5.

    Meanwhile using wowprogress
    T15 - 10 man - 4578 guilds on 13/13H
    T15 - 25 man - 366 guilds on 13/13H

    EP - 20 man - 1103 guilds on 8/8M

    24% when we take mid-expansion raids in comparison

    It is clear as a day, that people do prefer 10 mans over 25/20. Even if we consider that we have half of mop playerbase 10 man still had more people back then

    Lets assume for clarity
    7.5M in MoP = 0.6% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 10 man
    3.75M in BfA = 0.58% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 20 man

    And that is not even counting 25 mans in MoP.
    People did 10mans more simply because they are easier to start. It’s more reliable. Less people means less stress for raid lead, less chance that someone doesn’t show up, less coordination necessary, less chance to have some dps zombies holding the raid back, etc.

    10mans dominated because they are more casual. But just because people switched over to 10 mans doesn’t mean they liked them. People simply choose the path of least resistance

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by gd8 View Post
    most high end guilds operate like a company and treat you as if you're working for them
    Uh huh suuuuure

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    What decimaction, no lol, people just went to do things they want. If you are talking about having less and less guilds playing then you are again wrong because since Wotlk -> Mop there was like half of entire playerbase. Wotlk had nearly 12M players while MoP had 7.5.

    Meanwhile using wowprogress
    T15 - 10 man - 4578 guilds on 13/13H
    T15 - 25 man - 366 guilds on 13/13H

    EP - 20 man - 1103 guilds on 8/8M

    24% when we take mid-expansion raids in comparison

    It is clear as a day, that people do prefer 10 mans over 25/20. Even if we consider that we have half of mop playerbase 10 man still had more people back then

    Lets assume for clarity
    7.5M in MoP = 0.6% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 10 man
    3.75M in BfA = 0.58% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 20 man

    And that is not even counting 25 mans in MoP.
    1. T11 was the unbalanced garbage that almost killed 10m raiding in cata because it was over tuned garbage which was his point

    2. WoW progress shows even back during lich king that 25 man guilds wrecked the 10m ranks. You had blood legion multi boxing in MoP during heroic farm.

    3. More 10 man guilds were raiding during MoP yes (not using Wrath because they were separate things essentially) however a smaller percentage actually cleared the content. During ToT Horridon killed many guilds progression.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    People did 10mans more simply because they are easier to start. It’s more reliable. Less people means less stress for raid lead, less chance that someone doesn’t show up, less coordination necessary, less chance to have some dps zombies holding the raid back, etc.

    10mans dominated because they are more casual. But just because people switched over to 10 mans doesn’t mean they liked them. People simply choose the path of least resistance
    It’s like ppl forgot this fact the moment it was removed

  14. #94
    The culture's about moneymaking and it's trickled down in a lot of places. As well as the dissemination of information with the expectation you have to perform no recreation of theory-crafting whether it's boss ability or character ability

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I got back into the high end (well world 900 but still full clearing)) and the attitudes I'm encountering seem so forgien to me. Previously I was in a guild from tbc to legion and everything was laid back. We hit world 50ish constantly and each raid night was laid back like a cozy pub with friends.

    I returned during the last patch of bfa and the guilds I've joined have been almost Mercantile in how they operate. Massive benches are brought in full of people they never plan to use. Sale runs are pushed heavily for all level of content and their is a odd air of distrust between the members.

    At first I thought this was a one off but I've seen it in more then a couple of guilds now and I'm wondering if this is the new norm or if I've had rotten luck?
    it was always like this - guilds around world 1000-2000 marker were always way more hardcore and pro then actual pros -_-

    this happens when people dont depend on skils only on gear/banging head against wall enough time for boss to fall over

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Babadoo View Post
    Everything is about min maxing now. People can't play for the fun of it. It's all about being competitive even if you are far from being at the top.
    So people find it fun to min-max. And maybe more people find it fun now. So what?
    Who are you to tell people how to have fun? Who are you to tell people how to play the game?
    Find other people like you who just play to "have fun" and play with them and let others play like they want to play.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by gd8 View Post
    most high end guilds operate like a company and treat you as if you're working for them
    the higher you play, you more likely it is.

  18. #98
    Herald of the Titans msdos's Avatar
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    I doubt you can escape being benched anymore, you even get benched in Heroic guilds now if they're trying to break into Mythic. I was benching myself at the end of BFA because the fights were tilting me too hard.
    I couldn't play BFA the way I wanted, I had to keep switching tunes everytime a new raid tier came out. I decided I wanted to go Frost right when Unholy started doing really good, then I discovered the encounters in Nya are terrible to do as Frost, like, really terrible.

    The corruptions made that last stretch of BFA so unpredictable that it was unbearable for me.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Babadoo View Post
    Everything is about min maxing now. People can't play for the fun of it. It's all about being competitive even if you are far from being at the top.
    That's a bunch of baloney, son.

    You don't need to minmax shit for raids nowadays because with the corruption cap in the sky the raids became a piece of cake, I'm talking like ~2 hours total to clear 12/12M with a boostie nowadays for our rank 430 guild. People can do whatever they want, bring alts, fuck around and things still die because our characters are disgustingly OP now, way beyond what we had during progression.

    EVEN during progression, we never enforced specs or nonsense like that - we did try to bring better comp to every boss (because in the end you can't bring bajillion melee to something like Ilgy and so on), but it was hardly what you'd call "min-maxing" there - it was more like taking whatever people are playing and making a better comp out of it for a specific boss.

    Vast majority decent guilds do just that, because raiders > bullshit. Too much bullshit and you will simply start having a high raiders turnover, which is a no.1 cause of guilds popping. We and many others prefer to let guildies do whatever they want when it comes to what they play, because player retention is more important than some small edge here and there for our laid-back guild.

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