Did high end raiding guilds change or is it me?

[Relapses]

Notice he said "guilds I joined" and "I've seen it in more then a couple of guilds". Reading is hard, I know, just stick with BuzzFeed.

By George, you're right -- that changes everything!

TIL if you add the letter 's' to an anecdotal experience it's suddenly no longer anecdotal!

[Super Kami Dende]

The mouth breathing idiots that treat raiding like a Job pushed all the People that played for Fun away from the activity. Hence why it is only those tools left.

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By George, you're right -- that changes everything!

TIL if you add the letter 's' to an anecdotal experience it's suddenly no longer anecdotal!

You are pretending like someone finding a trend that many others also have found can't be discussed without a complete survey of everyone who has ever played the game.

[Relapses]

The mouth breathing idiots that treat raiding like a Job pushed all the People that played for Fun away from the activity. Hence why it is only those tools left.

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You are pretending like someone finding a trend that many others also have found can't be discussed without a complete survey of everyone who has ever played the game.

Because we really needed yet another thread to remind us that WoW sucks, all players suck, raiding sucks and attitudes suck. Not like the good ol days back in {insert favorite expansion here}.

Gotcha.

[Itori]

Id suggest looking for another group, i tend to run with good friends and we have lots of good laughs and end the night on a high note. A guild like OP describes is just a highly toxic unstable mess.

[Marrilaife]

Personally I have similarly bad experience, i.e. forcing people to reroll to meta classes or benching them if they don't, ridiculing people for not min maxing to the smallest extent (like swapping professions or farming visions in groups or back in EP shaming for not farming benthic, forcing people to AP farm way beyond the natural curve, etc.), and generally post-Legion the level of tryhardness in the guilds increased a lot. Guilds at 300 world rank class stacking as if they were Method / Limit etc.

[ihate2beapessimist]

High end raiding is a business, they are run as such.
Not necessarily toxic, just run as a corporation (a soulless entity)
You are not really a member of a community but a replaceable cog in a well-oiled machine.

[T-34]

I got back into the high end (well world 900 but still full clearing)) and the attitudes I'm encountering seem so forgien to me. Previously I was in a guild from tbc to legion and everything was laid back. We hit world 50ish constantly and each raid night was laid back like a cozy pub with friends.

If you by "laid back" mean the tone then I believe you, but if you by "laid back" mean that a world 50 guild would accept you to play bad then I will say that your post is a bunch of lies.

Just listen to the current guilds when they stream progression. They range from "laid back" to "angry". But that doesn't change that they all are competitive and won't accept bad players.

Just like in any other competitive endeavour people get better and if you and your guild want to keep up then yourself have to join the arms race: Organization, gold for BOEs, Alts, individual skill etc.

[Gotural]

@otaXephon, can you please stop being so obnoxious?

I mean, look at your post history, it is full of attacks and non-constructive criticism. (https://www.mmo-champion.com/search....rchid=65174580)

In the same day you litterally said to someone :

"Well shit. Shelly on MMO-Champion said that WoD had the worst iteration of the LFR, therefore it is now universally accepted that WoD had the worst iteration of the LFR.

Sorry for making fun of your shitty opinion."

Then wrote :

"Ah right -- thanks for informing me that my opinion is wrong. I'll try to remember that the next time I order vanilla ice cream instead of chocolate. I'd really hate for somebody who disagrees with my preference to tell me how to think."

Please, be careful.

[T-34]

Personally I have similarly bad experience, i.e. forcing people to reroll to meta classes or benching them if they don't, ridiculing people for not min maxing to the smallest extent (like swapping professions or farming visions in groups or back in EP shaming for not farming benthic, forcing people to AP farm way beyond the natural curve, etc.), and generally post-Legion the level of tryhardness in the guilds increased a lot. Guilds at 300 world rank class stacking as if they were Method / Limit etc.

Nobody can force you to do anything in this game.

So this is a YOU-problem that has 2 very simple solutions:
1. Join a guild with values that correspond with yours
2. Make your own guild

YOU yourself chose to play with people whose definition of fun differ from yours.
A rational person will find like-minded people to play with instead of trying to change others.

[Gaidax]

High end raiding is a business, they are run as such.
Not necessarily toxic, just run as a corporation (a soulless entity)
You are not really a member of a community but a replaceable cog in a well-oiled machine.

Rank 900 is not a high end raiding... :kekw:

These are guys that barely drag themselves to the cutting edge by the end of patch. If that guild is being toxic about requirements and shit, that would be laughable.

[Relapses]

@otaXephon, can you please stop being so obnoxious?

I mean, look at your post history, it is full of attacks and non-constructive criticism. (https://www.mmo-champion.com/search....rchid=65174580)

In the same day you litterally said to someone :

"Well shit. Shelly on MMO-Champion said that WoD had the worst iteration of the LFR, therefore it is now universally accepted that WoD had the worst iteration of the LFR.

Sorry for making fun of your shitty opinion."

Then wrote :

"Ah right -- thanks for informing me that my opinion is wrong. I'll try to remember that the next time I order vanilla ice cream instead of chocolate. I'd really hate for somebody who disagrees with my preference to tell me how to think."

Please, be careful.

Can you go ahead and read the bottom portion of the post that you didn't quote? You know, the part where I say I have no problem with people disagreeing with my opinion but I do have an issue with people pretending like their opinions matter more than anybody else's.

Also, if you have an issue with the way I'm posting, send me a DM. There's no need to clog up unrelated discussion threads with whatever personal vendetta you have against me. (Alternatively, you can ignore my posts. I promise I don't give a shit.)

[T-34]

The mouth breathing idiots that treat raiding like a Job pushed all the People that played for Fun away from the activity.

What stopped or stops people that "play for fun" to make their own guilds without "mouth breathing idiots" where they can/could play with like-minded people?

Or is "playing for fun" some sort of code for bad players that are crying because no-one wants to carry them anymore?

[Tiev]

@otaXephon, can you please stop being so obnoxious?

I mean, look at your post history, it is full of attacks and non-constructive criticism. (https://www.mmo-champion.com/search....rchid=65174580)

In the same day you litterally said to someone :

"Well shit. Shelly on MMO-Champion said that WoD had the worst iteration of the LFR, therefore it is now universally accepted that WoD had the worst iteration of the LFR.

Sorry for making fun of your shitty opinion."

Then wrote :

"Ah right -- thanks for informing me that my opinion is wrong. I'll try to remember that the next time I order vanilla ice cream instead of chocolate. I'd really hate for somebody who disagrees with my preference to tell me how to think."

Please, be careful.

Yup. Damn, man, his/her life must be awful for him to take it out on people like that. I suggest therapy. It really helps!

[Bighud44]

I got back into the high end (well world 900 but still full clearing)) and the attitudes I'm encountering seem so forgien to me. Previously I was in a guild from tbc to legion and everything was laid back. We hit world 50ish constantly and each raid night was laid back like a cozy pub with friends.

I returned during the last patch of bfa and the guilds I've joined have been almost Mercantile in how they operate. Massive benches are brought in full of people they never plan to use. Sale runs are pushed heavily for all level of content and their is a odd air of distrust between the members.

At first I thought this was a one off but I've seen it in more then a couple of guilds now and I'm wondering if this is the new norm or if I've had rotten luck?

It became a massive business..

[Relapses]

Yup. Damn, man, his/her life must be awful for him to take it out on people like that. I suggest therapy. It really helps!

I need therapy to cure my reliance on sarcasm to illustrate the pointless nature of most internet arguments? Uh, alright. Thanks, Dr. K.

[Marrilaife]

YOU yourself chose to play with people whose definition of fun differ from yours.
A rational person will find like-minded people to play with instead of trying to change others.

Feel free to enlighten me how do I "just find them", since Legion (4 years) I've been in at least 5 guilds and all of them either:
- disbanded
- transfered to horde
- treated me like shit
Should I guild hop more? It's frowned upon. Should I stop playing the class and role I like and reroll fotm just to get a shot at more guilds? That's exactly caving into the fotm mentality I tried to escape. Should I just play with people who can't even finish a raid before CE gets removed because that's the only place where people are supposedly "chill"?

Not even mentioning all the guilds lie in their recruitment macros / wowprogress descriptions / application interviews, and only after I join, I find out they have two dozen random rules, customs and expectations that were never stated on the cover.

After being told off for stupidest reasons ever (like "not spending enough time on discord with the guild") I concede, this community is hopeless. You can't just do what I did from wotlk until wod, come prepared to the raid, do your best, and be happy you're a part of the team. Nowadays everywhere I tried I have to jump through goddamn hoops.

I tried to aim at midrange mythic guilds so I can play with moderately skilled people who don't tryhard. All I found was sub-par skilled people who tryhard, blame others for lack of progress and think they deserve 200 world ranks better than the guild has. My last guild had 800 world rank but was aiming top 200 in Shadowlands. Or rather: "GM had the ambition to get to top 50-150 rank". SMH. No wonder it disbanded.

The guild I've been in before that forced me to participate in PTR raid testing and ridiculed people for not rerolling their professions, also benched people for not rerolling fotm class. Also lied about not extending the raiding hours.

I lost hope for finding anything. 90% of guilds I screened either don't need my role or require playing multiple alts and swap to fotm class.

"Make your own guild" is even stupider suggestion in a world where even long standing alliance guilds can't replenish members and that's in a scenario where they maybe need 2-3 new people and not 20+ at once. It's not the same as making a pug for your weekly m+15.

The only likeminded people I enjoyed playing with either quit, or went horde due to lack of opportunities.

After a guild I fairly enjoyed disbanded in EP, I haven't found anything remotely suitable, so anyone who has fancy ideas how to "just find a nice guild" feel free to chip in. Pretty sure it's just a slogan in the same way as telling homeless person "why don't you just find a place to live in"?

[Feanoro]

After Blizz successfully alienated the audience that led to WoW being so popular, alongside imploding tons of guilds with their "10 man is real raiding", all that was left was a few hardcore guilds too stubborn to quit. By elimination of competitors, tons of bitter casual guilds (as in people pissed that good guilds turned them down) were suddenly high ranking. They began acting exactly how they had accused the old high end guilds, while clearly not having the faintest clue how it had actually worked. The nouveau hardcore are ridiculously more toxic than even what they accused the old guard of being.

[Krakan]

If you by "laid back" mean the tone then I believe you, but if you by "laid back" mean that a world 50 guild would accept you to play bad then I will say that your post is a bunch of lies.

Just listen to the current guilds when they stream progression. They range from "laid back" to "angry". But that doesn't change that they all are competitive and won't accept bad players.

Just like in any other competitive endeavour people get better and if you and your guild want to keep up then yourself have to join the arms race: Organization, gold for BOEs, Alts, individual skill etc.

I mean in tone it was laid back but we worked to minimize things like wipe recovery and would sit people out of progression if they struggled with a particular mechanic. We made sure they got the kill eventually. Though that was rare we ran a razor thin branch and each of us excelled at our classes.

I never meant to imply it was a do what you want spec what you want guild.

[Trend]

I mean in tone it was laid back but we worked to minimize things like wipe recovery and would sit people out of progression if they struggled with a particular mechanic. We made sure they got the kill eventually. Though that was rare we ran a razor thin branch and each of us excelled at our classes.

I never meant to imply it was a do what you want spec what you want guild.

I thought it was interesting how calm Limit's voicecomms were when they were racing for WF. The casters made the point that it is more typical of guilds out of the top 50 to be toxic. If the raid leaders know what they are doing and have control of the raid there is no reason to panic, you just fix what went wrong and move on. If you don't know what you're doing you start screaming and saying caustic shit while punitively benching people.

[Wheeler]

I got back into the high end (well world 900 but still full clearing)) and the attitudes I'm encountering seem so forgien to me. Previously I was in a guild from tbc to legion and everything was laid back. We hit world 50ish constantly and each raid night was laid back like a cozy pub with friends.

I returned during the last patch of bfa and the guilds I've joined have been almost Mercantile in how they operate. Massive benches are brought in full of people they never plan to use. Sale runs are pushed heavily for all level of content and their is a odd air of distrust between the members.

At first I thought this was a one off but I've seen it in more then a couple of guilds now and I'm wondering if this is the new norm or if I've had rotten luck?

Raiding has gotten significantly harder since TBC.

Blizzard has tuned mythic encounters to brutal levels in comparison to TBC 25 mans. The execution required has skyrocketed, the preparation has skyrocketed, and the margin for error has diminished dramatically. What you bring is equally important to WHO you bring, and you never know when the next Carapace (LOCK REQUIRED) or Nzoth (Fire Mage) is around the corner.

Some fights (specifically towards the back 25% of the instance) require such coordination and memorization and repetition that losing 1-2 players due to burnout is enough to throw a wrench in the entire guild. All of a sudden you're not killing the boss or seeing the same progression because you are missing DPS checks or re-teaching new players the fight. 2 more raiders get burned out because you've regressed due to it. They leave. Then 2 more, then 2 more, then you're calling it quits for the tier.

So, it's more common that you get guilds running a bench for multiple reasons. Bring those players in to learn the encounter when the others can't make it due to whatever reason, so the downtime is minimized. Honestly? The game would likely be more successful if they de-tuned Mythic a bit. But for every "HIGH ELF NOW" vocal minority, a "MAKE RAIDING MORE DIFFICULT" minority is there to match them, decibel for decibel.

Heroic is too easy. Mythic is too hard. Normal shouldn't exist.