Did high end raiding guilds change or is it me?

[Feral Druid ist Op]

The only way I can keep playing is pay 55$ for faction change, downsize to the guilds that are really low rank or reroll to fotm range dps to get a spot in the small amount of guilds that exist on my faction.

And I'm not the only person going through this, I know people who got kicked / perma benched from guilds for similar reasons, 1 guy was a ret pala, another one was again a spriest, in both cases guilds sidelined them because they weren't a fotm class. Anyone who thinks people playing non-fotm specs aren't treated like this probably doesn't raid mythic.
.

I play a Boomkin in a top 30 guild the litral worst range dps spec in the game whats your point lol? i think its a bad logs l2p issue on your part if you cant find a guild

[Tronski]

Since you're asking for numbers that really don't exist, I tend to go back to this thread (that was completely ignored when posted) where somebody actually did compare numbers from WotLK moving into Cata:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...LK-through-MoP

A few things:

25M was still more popular in WotLK than 10M. There were more 10M guilds but you have to account for the fact that there were 2.5 times more players in every 25M guild so the number of people participating in 25M guilds was still immeasurably higher.

The other thing that kind of fucked over a lot of guilds was the stupid "guild leveling" system Blizzard introduced in Cata. It was much easier for 25M guilds to get the higher level perks earlier and, yet again, this just made the incentive to raid in 10M ever more appealing. The only thing that's abundantly clear is that gear parity between 10- and 25M was universally detrimental to larger raid teams.

You're using facts wrong. More people raided 25M in WOTLK because back then it dropped higher ilvl items than 10M did. From ulduar and onwards, 10m hardmodes dropped items of ilvl similar to 25m normal mode.

[Babadoo]

Everything is about min maxing now. People can't play for the fun of it. It's all about being competitive even if you are far from being at the top.

[Relapses]

You're using facts wrong. More people raided 25M in WOTLK because back then it dropped higher ilvl items than 10M did. From ulduar and onwards, 10m hardmodes dropped items of ilvl similar to 25m normal mode.

The loot tables were different and the items which dropped in 25M were almost always universally better than what dropped in 10M Heroic. Full-on gear parity didn't happen until T11 and that's when you can very clearly see the absolute decimation of larger raid teams.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Since you're asking for numbers that really don't exist, I tend to go back to this thread (that was completely ignored when posted) where somebody actually did compare numbers from WotLK moving into Cata:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...LK-through-MoP

A few things:

25M was still more popular in WotLK than 10M. There were more 10M guilds but you have to account for the fact that there were 2.5 times more players in every 25M guild so the number of people participating in 25M guilds was still immeasurably higher.

The other thing that kind of fucked over a lot of guilds was the stupid "guild leveling" system Blizzard introduced in Cata. It was much easier for 25M guilds to get the higher level perks earlier and, yet again, this just made the incentive to raid in 10M ever more appealing. The only thing that's abundantly clear is that gear parity between 10- and 25M was universally detrimental to larger raid teams.

Yeah, I know I'm asking for facts that likely don't exist; the person I was asking asserted that there were some sort of numbers to back up their claim. I was calling them out on that and requesting they either put up the numbers or admit they were making them up, either way my goal was a direct response from them. You answering doesn't deal with the key issue that I was addressing: Someone making unsubstantiated claims about numbers.

I've largely been providing nothing but personal perspective with it being blatantly obvious that it is my subjective opinion, I don't like when people start making numbers up to try to prop up their opinion, especially when they start throwing in shit like "10man was cancer" into their post. Making up numbers to suit personal bias is not something I'm very tolerant of, hence why I requested specifically that they provide numbers to back their claim up.

[Debased]

I used to raid with a US top-30 guild (TBC-WOTLK). It was great, there was as you describe a sense of comradery and family even. My most recent bought into high-end raiding left me feeling burned out and a little salty (8.0-8.1) but I wouldn't blame the guild I was with. I'd say it's because the game is designed now to treat you like a hamster on a wheel and items, mechanics, and class identity are homogenized with the exception of power levels (gear, crap like OG Azerite, etc). Back in the day you could catch up with a helpful guild are feel like your part of something. Now you grind and grind and end up exactly where everyone else is but end up behind the curve if you slack off for a bit or have other priorities for a couple weeks and it feels awful.

[kaminaris]

The loot tables were different and the items which dropped in 25M were almost always universally better than what dropped in 10M Heroic. Full-on gear parity didn't happen until T11 and that's when you can very clearly see the absolute decimation of larger raid teams.

What decimaction, no lol, people just went to do things they want. If you are talking about having less and less guilds playing then you are again wrong because since Wotlk -> Mop there was like half of entire playerbase. Wotlk had nearly 12M players while MoP had 7.5.

Meanwhile using wowprogress
T15 - 10 man - 4578 guilds on 13/13H
T15 - 25 man - 366 guilds on 13/13H

EP - 20 man - 1103 guilds on 8/8M

24% when we take mid-expansion raids in comparison

It is clear as a day, that people do prefer 10 mans over 25/20. Even if we consider that we have half of mop playerbase 10 man still had more people back then

Lets assume for clarity
7.5M in MoP = 0.6% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 10 man
3.75M in BfA = 0.58% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 20 man

And that is not even counting 25 mans in MoP.

[Wuusah]

What decimaction, no lol, people just went to do things they want. If you are talking about having less and less guilds playing then you are again wrong because since Wotlk -> Mop there was like half of entire playerbase. Wotlk had nearly 12M players while MoP had 7.5.

Meanwhile using wowprogress
T15 - 10 man - 4578 guilds on 13/13H
T15 - 25 man - 366 guilds on 13/13H

EP - 20 man - 1103 guilds on 8/8M

24% when we take mid-expansion raids in comparison

It is clear as a day, that people do prefer 10 mans over 25/20. Even if we consider that we have half of mop playerbase 10 man still had more people back then

Lets assume for clarity
7.5M in MoP = 0.6% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 10 man
3.75M in BfA = 0.58% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 20 man

And that is not even counting 25 mans in MoP.

People did 10mans more simply because they are easier to start. It’s more reliable. Less people means less stress for raid lead, less chance that someone doesn’t show up, less coordination necessary, less chance to have some dps zombies holding the raid back, etc.

10mans dominated because they are more casual. But just because people switched over to 10 mans doesn’t mean they liked them. People simply choose the path of least resistance

[razorpax]

most high end guilds operate like a company and treat you as if you're working for them

Uh huh suuuuure

- - - Updated - - -

What decimaction, no lol, people just went to do things they want. If you are talking about having less and less guilds playing then you are again wrong because since Wotlk -> Mop there was like half of entire playerbase. Wotlk had nearly 12M players while MoP had 7.5.

Meanwhile using wowprogress
T15 - 10 man - 4578 guilds on 13/13H
T15 - 25 man - 366 guilds on 13/13H

EP - 20 man - 1103 guilds on 8/8M

24% when we take mid-expansion raids in comparison

It is clear as a day, that people do prefer 10 mans over 25/20. Even if we consider that we have half of mop playerbase 10 man still had more people back then

Lets assume for clarity
7.5M in MoP = 0.6% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 10 man
3.75M in BfA = 0.58% of people who killed last boss on hardest difficulty 20 man

And that is not even counting 25 mans in MoP.

1. T11 was the unbalanced garbage that almost killed 10m raiding in cata because it was over tuned garbage which was his point

2. WoW progress shows even back during lich king that 25 man guilds wrecked the 10m ranks. You had blood legion multi boxing in MoP during heroic farm.

3. More 10 man guilds were raiding during MoP yes (not using Wrath because they were separate things essentially) however a smaller percentage actually cleared the content. During ToT Horridon killed many guilds progression.

- - - Updated - - -

People did 10mans more simply because they are easier to start. It’s more reliable. Less people means less stress for raid lead, less chance that someone doesn’t show up, less coordination necessary, less chance to have some dps zombies holding the raid back, etc.

10mans dominated because they are more casual. But just because people switched over to 10 mans doesn’t mean they liked them. People simply choose the path of least resistance

It’s like ppl forgot this fact the moment it was removed

[kamuimac]

I got back into the high end (well world 900 but still full clearing)) and the attitudes I'm encountering seem so forgien to me. Previously I was in a guild from tbc to legion and everything was laid back. We hit world 50ish constantly and each raid night was laid back like a cozy pub with friends.

I returned during the last patch of bfa and the guilds I've joined have been almost Mercantile in how they operate. Massive benches are brought in full of people they never plan to use. Sale runs are pushed heavily for all level of content and their is a odd air of distrust between the members.

At first I thought this was a one off but I've seen it in more then a couple of guilds now and I'm wondering if this is the new norm or if I've had rotten luck?

it was always like this - guilds around world 1000-2000 marker were always way more hardcore and pro then actual pros -_-

this happens when people dont depend on skils only on gear/banging head against wall enough time for boss to fall over

[T-34]

Everything is about min maxing now. People can't play for the fun of it. It's all about being competitive even if you are far from being at the top.

So people find it fun to min-max. And maybe more people find it fun now. So what?
Who are you to tell people how to have fun? Who are you to tell people how to play the game?
Find other people like you who just play to "have fun" and play with them and let others play like they want to play.

[exsanguinate]

most high end guilds operate like a company and treat you as if you're working for them

the higher you play, you more likely it is.

[msdos]

I doubt you can escape being benched anymore, you even get benched in Heroic guilds now if they're trying to break into Mythic. I was benching myself at the end of BFA because the fights were tilting me too hard.
I couldn't play BFA the way I wanted, I had to keep switching tunes everytime a new raid tier came out. I decided I wanted to go Frost right when Unholy started doing really good, then I discovered the encounters in Nya are terrible to do as Frost, like, really terrible.

The corruptions made that last stretch of BFA so unpredictable that it was unbearable for me.

[Gaidax]

Everything is about min maxing now. People can't play for the fun of it. It's all about being competitive even if you are far from being at the top.

That's a bunch of baloney, son.

You don't need to minmax shit for raids nowadays because with the corruption cap in the sky the raids became a piece of cake, I'm talking like ~2 hours total to clear 12/12M with a boostie nowadays for our rank 430 guild. People can do whatever they want, bring alts, fuck around and things still die because our characters are disgustingly OP now, way beyond what we had during progression.

EVEN during progression, we never enforced specs or nonsense like that - we did try to bring better comp to every boss (because in the end you can't bring bajillion melee to something like Ilgy and so on), but it was hardly what you'd call "min-maxing" there - it was more like taking whatever people are playing and making a better comp out of it for a specific boss.

Vast majority decent guilds do just that, because raiders > bullshit. Too much bullshit and you will simply start having a high raiders turnover, which is a no.1 cause of guilds popping. We and many others prefer to let guildies do whatever they want when it comes to what they play, because player retention is more important than some small edge here and there for our laid-back guild.