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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    But classic doesn't "work just fine". Raiding in Classic is a joke that provides no challenge whatsoever to accomplished players. The raiding difficulty in Classic is equivalent to LFR, just without the queueing tool.
    So, you're good at the game -- well done! I wasn't half bad in my day, either.

    But much of this conversation, and the statement I was responding to, isn't about "accomplished players." It's about low(er) skill percentile players whom Blizzard in 2011 mistakenly thought needed an on-rails raiding experience.

    LFR can never be made too easy, because team activities require organization through management and social investment. I'll let someone else show you Classic guild progress and endlessly debate the WoW True Scotsman of performance. Classic is an example of a live environment predating 4.3. The story of LFR is about the plurality of players who loved WoW but weren't good at it, received a path to endgame in the 2nd expansion, had it taken away 2 years later and replaced with a system actively hollowing out WoW's core.

    That's the cruel irony, here: people thinking that it's too much to deal with interaction, selection and rejection, so they just keep looking for another "obstacle" to clear...when that process is what allows groups to make more challenging content look easier -- all the while building relationships and supporting and sustaining the social elements of an MMO.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    But much of this conversation, and the statement I was responding to, isn't about "accomplished players." It's about low(er) skill percentile players whom Blizzard in 2011 mistakenly thought needed an on-rails raiding experience. .
    LFR was a massive success and remains a massive success. Raiding is in a better spot now than it has been at any time in the game's history. Whatever problems the game might have now, this isn't one of them.

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    That's an arbitrary distinction.
    No it's not. It's based on a sound understanding of the concepts and the difference between a mode of play and a difficulty setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Why not say that Normal and Heroic are different modes of play because they have slightly different mechanics to Mythic?
    I am not sure how you think that would useful to the discussion. The point of drawing the distinction between modes of play and difficulty was to show that the LFR mode of play is not compatible with harder difficulties and hence why your wish for harder LFR content is impractical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I am of the opinion that the conclusion you got to doesn't follow from the premise. Cataclysm Heroics were hard, but there were no other modes of PvE content with queues at the time.
    As I already tried to explain, you're using the term 'mode' incorrectly here. Cataclysm offered dungeons in two difficulty settings (normal and heroic) and both were available in LFD mode. They were, btw, also available in the regular mode by which players formed their own groups and then went to the dungeon without using the queueing system. There was simply no difference between the difficulty setting in the two modes.

    The case of Cataclysm heroics strongly supports my argument. They were a disaster. LFD groups were in turmoil with massive failure rates, people getting kicked, rage-quitting, groups disbanding (evident in both numerous player complaints as well as the data). Simply put, the harder dungeon difficulty setting wasn't appropriate for LFD mode content. And the game suffered for a long time because they were trying to balance heroic dungeon difficulty between two modes which required different difficulties. It was only later that they thought to introduce mythic dungeons - available only in non-LFD mode - as a solution to the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Leaving players devoid of avenues of progress leads to a natural decline in retention in a game where progress is basically everything.
    I don't disagree. However the game does offer avenues of progress. And while I understand that such progress being constrained to more organised modes of play is not ideal for people who would rather use an auto-queue system, what I am trying to tell you is that it is a necessity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    People quit after completing LFR both because they've seen the story and because the avenue into further gear progression is suddenly turned from guaranteed access but not guaranteed completion, into a social experiment where both access and completion aren't guaranteed.
    Adding harder difficulties in LFR mode isn't going to solve this issue because the groups that form will be unable to complete the content.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No it's not.
    No point having this discussion if we can't agree on the premises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The case of Cataclysm heroics strongly supports my argument. They were a disaster. LFD groups were in turmoil with massive failure rates, people getting kicked, rage-quitting, groups disbanding (evident in both numerous player complaints as well as the data). Simply put, the harder dungeon difficulty setting wasn't appropriate for LFD mode content.
    The conclusion here does not follow from the premises. You have omitted the fact that Normal mode was easily clearable but Heroic was not, with no granularity between them. That lack of granularity was a much more significant contributor to failure rates than the difficulty of the mode itself. The rest of your argument falls apart with this in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    However the game does offer avenues of progress.
    Unfortunately, with those avenues purely controlled by community acceptance and tools like raider.io those avenues are not guaranteed, and as such contribute to my original point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Adding harder difficulties in LFR mode isn't going to solve this issue because the groups that form will be unable to complete the content.
    I disagree; see Normal to Heroic mode dungeons. Just because you add the next level with a queuing system doesn't automatically mean that the content can't be completed with the correct amount of tuning and granularity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Any warrants or backing for this [] claim?
    Normal, Heroic and Timewalking dungeons are well-granulated and provide increasing rewards. No-one is complaining about those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    There is a cap to what difficulty can be tackled in a LFD
    No, there isn't. As before, the rest of your argument collapses as it's on an untrue premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Your expectation that average random players, in a random group setting, will improve and progress in the same manner as committed players in guilds is unfounded
    WotLK Normal PuGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    That is all easy content, even easier than LFR.
    Your argument was that additional granularity would not have helped; I have shown where additional granularity does not cause problems. These claims are isomorphic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I have to conclude that you realised that I had already successfully countered your backing.
    "I'm right because I either don't understand your argument and/or have countered some other argument" isn't a very strong position.

    If you want to continue this discussion, please do so in PM to me.
    Last edited by Firebert; 2020-09-09 at 05:43 PM.
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  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    No point having this discussion if we can't agree on the premises.
    Well you have this strange and condescending debating style where pretty much all you do is claim that my argument makes no sense, yet your assertions are backed up by...well... nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    You have omitted the fact that Normal mode was easily clearable but Heroic was not, with no granularity between them. That lack of granularity was a much more significant contributor to failure rates than the difficulty of the mode itself.
    Any warrants or backing for this strange claim? Because frankly I do not believe that any amount of granularity would have helped. There is a cap to what difficulty can be tackled in a LFD because it's putting together a random group of strangers with zero way of ensuring that they have the requisite skill and capability to tackle the next level of difficulty.

    LFR manages the issue of player incompetence by tuning the difficulty of the content to the point where, statistically, most groups will succeed. Make the content harder and very soon it will just fall apart, like what happened with Cata heroics. Your expectation that average random players, in a random group setting, will improve and progress in the same manner as committed players in guilds is unfounded, and I believe that the fact that Blizzard (the actual experts in this) haven't implemented such an idea suggests that they too believe it has no chance of success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Unfortunately, with those avenues purely controlled by community acceptance and tools like raider.io those avenues are not guaranteed, and as such contribute to my original point.
    Those tools exist because of the inadequacy of accepting random people. Even if Blizzard did implement some granularity, they would have to use something that measures the same kind of metrics that raider.io does. The only difference is that it would probably be easier to game such a system, resulting in incompetent people causing the system to fail.

  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Normal, Heroic and Timewalking dungeons are well-granulated and provide increasing rewards. No-one is complaining about those.
    That is all easy content, even easier than LFR. My argument is that there is a cap on the difficulty of LFx mode content (that uses an automated tool that you simply queue for), so trying to point to easy content doesn't address my argument at all. So your claims remain both unwarranted and unbacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    No, there isn't. As before, the rest of your argument collapses as it's on an untrue premise.
    So first you made the claim (without backing or warrants) that my conclusion failed to follow the premise.

    My premise was that Cata LFD, which had hard dungeons, was a disaster. My conclusion was that LFD isn't suited to hard content. Now while you may even correct in your claim, your failure to provide a backing to your claim makes it kinda impossible to either concede the point, or rebutt it. So instead I simply pre-emptively tried to rebutt any arguments that you might have. Given that you failed to present any backing, I have to conclude that you realised that I had already successfully countered your backing.

    And so you switched to making the claim that the premise is untrue. Again without any backing or warrant. And again, this makes it difficult to either concede or rebutt, because without any reasoning from your side, there isn't really anything to argue or agree with.

    If you want to claim that the premise is untrue then back it up with some kind of argument, some evidence etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    WotLK Normal PuGs.
    Incorrect.

    Firstly, this is discussion about random groups formed by group finding tools. Not about pugging in which players are responsible for forming groups.

    Secondly you've (again) failed to provide any warrant or backing for your claim that even PuGs are able to progress in the same manner as organised groups (eg guilds).


    As I said earlier, you're big on making claims. But you need to back them up if you expect your claims to carry any validity.


    I have claimed that LFR is a mode of play unsuited to harder content. I have backed that claim with the fact that Cata heroic LFD was a disaster, as warranted by both Blizzard's admission to the fact (and their subsequent change in approach) and player feedback. I have also attempted to explain the reason it doesn't work (random groups of people are going to include people who aren't up to the task).

    Your best counter has been that it only failed because of a lack of granularity. Yet you've provided no warrant or backing for why you believe this would have made any difference. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's certainly an interesting premise. But while you've provided zero reasons for why you think it would make a difference, I have given my reasons as to why I think it won't. Again, it's hard to have a discussion about this if you're never going to progress beyond making claims....

  7. #507
    I think LFR difficulty should be reworked, probably making it a 10/15 man content, tunning the difficulty more towards personal survivality and making it easier to understand the mechanics so its not like nzoth/ghuun again, and increasing the rewards so any person has a reason to run it even if the rewards are not tied to player power.

    Honestly i think normal and mythic are OK, i dont tnik blizz will ever remove a raid difficulty, the game needs the casual unorganized LFR, the friends and pugs Normal, and the high end serious guild Mythic, and they are not going to remove heroic because that would cause the guilds and people without the skill/time commitment to run Mythic but find Normal too easy to go bananas.

  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by confety View Post
    I think LFR difficulty should be reworked, probably making it a 10/15 man content, tunning the difficulty more towards personal survivality and making it easier to understand the mechanics so its not like nzoth/ghuun again, and increasing the rewards so any person has a reason to run it even if the rewards are not tied to player power.
    LFR's currently 25 man to reduce queue times, as the game is currently flooded with DPS as compared to Healers and Tanks.

    Agree with reward increase; whatever is used for currency come Shadowlands can easily be added but at a much higher rate than the Echoes provided by current LFR.
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  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    LFR's currently 25 man to reduce queue times, as the game is currently flooded with DPS as compared to Healers and Tanks.

    Agree with reward increase; whatever is used for currency come Shadowlands can easily be added but at a much higher rate than the Echoes provided by current LFR.
    Add two difficulties to LFR. One, current LFR, 25 man. Same as it was
    Other difficulty, same as normal difficulty. And for 15 man f.e.
    Makes it easier to organise PUG run with LFR feature.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    No point having this discussion if we can't agree on the premises.
    Or if you cannot understand the 100% valid point he is making.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  11. #511
    While LFR is the highest participation difficulty of raiding it has a place in the game.

    LFR has been in the game what 8? years now and people are still making these threads.


    It's not going anywhere.


    LFR's high levels of participation is what keeps raiding alive, Mythic raiders make up around 1% of the raiding community.

    I'm an ex mythic raider who stopped once I cleared Hellfire Citadel and I have absolutely no issues with LFR's existence.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjie View Post
    Add two difficulties to LFR. One, current LFR, 25 man. Same as it was
    Other difficulty, same as normal difficulty. And for 15 man f.e.
    Makes it easier to organise PUG run with LFR feature.
    Yes, this is exactly what raiding needs.

    MORE difficulties.

    Some people...

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by oblakoff View Post
    Yes, this is exactly what raiding needs.

    MORE difficulties.

    Some people...
    Its not more difficulty, its same difficulty as normal raid.
    And you know, i prefer LFR when it was at MoP with that flex system. That was normal difficulty.
    I wish LFR was actually that difficult, im now letting cats play my keyboard and still win. It is insulting to casual players without time commitment.

  14. #514
    For me it has nothing to do difficulty of the encounters.

    I just queue up and do other stuff, quest, solo old raids or whatever..... the queue just pops up and there I go.

    BTW: I still don't understand why people make threads for LFR and removing it or the use of it or the ease.... I mean people let their cats play it :-)
    It was ridiculous before and it still is.


    If you don't want to play LFR, just don't play it!
    Last edited by Synstir; Today at 11:28 AM.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by AntenoraDK View Post
    While LFR is the highest participation difficulty of raiding it has a place in the game.

    LFR has been in the game what 8? years now and people are still making these threads.


    It's not going anywhere.


    LFR's high levels of participation is what keeps raiding alive, Mythic raiders make up around 1% of the raiding community.

    I'm an ex mythic raider who stopped once I cleared Hellfire Citadel and I have absolutely no issues with LFR's existence.
    I would argue simple participation isn't a useful yard stick otherwise all the content in wow would be the level 1-10 expereince.

    LFR... well I don't really see what good it possibly does in the game if I am being blunt. I ran it a few times for transmog and no one inside of it seemed to be having a good time they just snipped and whined at each other as they tried to brute force down the few bosses that have mechanics. It isn't teaching them how to play and watching a youtube run of the raid is a more enjoyable format for "seeing the content".

    End of the day I feel like mythic 0 is the natural replacement to lfr.

  16. #516
    Unfortunately I think it does because there are those who don't wish to be a part of a guild and want to solo play the game or are really bad at the game or are super toxic and no one wants to carry/deal with them. I say this based on observations from the few experiences I've had dealing with the players who are in an LFR.

  17. #517
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    I like LFR.

    There are times I can't really commit much time for WoW and to be able to participate in the raids are really nice.

    Granted, I do like regular raiding more.
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