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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    however, they are determined to try and make games that appeal to everyone, and that is where the problem lies. They make these games that at first glance seem quite casual friendly, like OW, but then try to force it into being an esport. Same thing happened with HOTS imo.
    I think this largely feeds into the issue that they've really forgotten to look for an actual target audience.

    It's same issue in WoW, the game doesn't really have a target audience anymore.
    They just dump in game modes and multiple layers of difficulty into it, that they can always say "there is something for everybody!"
    Yet everything feels halfassed at the end of the day because everything is still somehow connected to each other and thus cannot be really good as it would come at the detriment of another aspect of the game.

    Blizzard used to able to look at another franchise or genre, distill what is good and fun about and make it appeal to a large audience, nowadays, they just seem to skip the "distill" part and dump anything that appeals to a certain audience into their game.

    The result, no audience truly gets a fulfilling experience out of the game.

    Rob Pardo used to talk about "concentrated coolness", i'm not sure whether that applies to WoW anymore.

  2. #182
    mostly people in general changed especially PC game players many hardcore gamers now play esport or games with tens of thousands of viewers to make that money.

  3. #183
    Someone did the tally and less than half the new positions of authority were female but keep pushing that misguided angle that they are taking over. You just notice them more because they aren't you normal type of stew that you've been eating for the past 30 years. I've also seen lots of male t shirts in the shop, obviously men can't wear leggings.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaibhan View Post
    It's both actually. I have nothing against Ion, but you don't make the guy in charge of the guild that min maxed everything back int the day the game director. That's how you wind up in a game where min maxxing at all costs is most people's focus. That being said people age and min/max is not something most people have time for anymore and if they do it's all the have time for making them not want to participate in the game with people who do not.
    But ion has been open and the design around the covenants shows that they don't want you to min max everything all the time. Hell in bfa the reason for rng on a number of things was so you weren't going to min max.

    The issue is the player base who seem to think that if something has a 0.00001% chance of getting you 0.00001% stronger blizzard puts a gun to your head and forces you to do it. When at worst it's people who refuse to get a guild and rely on pugs that have shitty perceptions that are destroying the game.

    Or as a dev of another game once said players will optimise the fun out of games. Why because they forget they're functioning people who have the ability to say no.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    This is a line of thinking I've only recently started going down, so please forgive me for any thoughts that may be poorly-worded, or even poorly thought-out.

    I don't think it would be a great revelation to say that, the Blizzard that exists today feels quite different to the Blizzard that existed in 2004 and prior. There are literally countless factors that could be attributed to that. Maybe times have changes, maybe the people there have changed... who knows.

    However, I've noticed noticed recently that there seems to have been a pretty dramatic shift in the kind of people that Blizzard is trying to appeal to.

    Back in the day, Blizzard made games that were primarily about "badass dudes doing badass things". All of the women were presented as hot, secondary characters to the men. A lot of that stuff probably seems dated today, but it's also part of what Blizzard's identity was; Blizzard's games were the Gaming equivalent of 70's and 80's Metal albums.

    I think Overwatch is the most easily-identifiable example of Blizzard's shift in direction. Overwatch contrasts every other Blizzard IP is that it was almost Disney-esque, and as character backstories began getting revealed to be more and more "inclusive", it became clear that Overwatch was going for a very different vibe, likely chasing a very different audience.

    Which is good, for a lot of reasons, but I think a particularly smart decision because it was such a contrast to their other existing properties.

    The thing is, though, is that it would appear that Blizzard has begun moving all of its IP's closer to that sort of vibe, instead of keeping each franchise as it were.

    I noticed the past several years -- without ever really putting it together -- that Blizzard's online store had stopped offering "cool" items. There are no more cool action figures, no more killer t-shirts or a lot of really cool artworks. Instead, we see a lot of women's clothes, more leggings than you can shake a stick at, and virtually all items and swag are "cute" instead of "cool".

    Battle for Azeroth marked a decided shift in WoW, in which *only* female characters were being put into meaningful positions of authority, something seemingly carrying over into Shadowlands. Focus is put more on relationships than believable events, often at the expense of any sense of logic or consistency. Characters that would make sense or have history in the series are sidelined to make way for more female characters. The new book also makes it a point to make sure we all know that Matthias Shaw is gay.

    It's a... strange situation.

    It's not that any of these changes would be "bad", but they feel wildly outside of what "Warcraft" was. Are they reinventing the wheel? Or just updating the wheel for more modern audiences? I can't help but feel, it feels like perhaps Blizzard is trying to cater to an audience that simply isn't the core audience.

    When Lord of the Clans came out, one of the "lessons" of that book is that, as a leader, it is Thrall's responsibility to wage war upon those who would threaten his people and their freedom. He wasn't a warmonger, by any means, but he also understood violence as the necessity as it is in the Warcraft universe.

    I wonder, if Lord of the Clans was written today, would Thrall have reached the same conclusion? Or would he instead going to any lengths, risk literally anything, in the name of peace? Would the old Thrall be a case of "toxic masculinity"?

    Because that seems to be how Anduin and Baine are written, and they can't help but feel horribly inconsistent with the franchise they star in. Anduin Wrynn, as he exists now, would not have survived in Wrath of the Lich King, nor would Baine have. I believe that is why so many players who these two in particular contempt.

    But also, look at Jaina; the once voice-of-reason. Until Cataclysm, and then she became "a bad bitch". Sylvanas, too, fills that same role, although in her case that's kind of where her character started anyways. Anduin literally fills the exact same role that Jaina once did, but Jaina can no longer carry that role because... what? It would make Jaina look weak? They don't want another male character in a position of authority?

    At least with Sylvanas, they've been generally consistent in terms of personality. I honestly find her a little insufferable how much she operates under "the rule of cool", that she can basically do anything and is always "one step ahead of everyone else", and something-something "four-dimensional chess". I actually thought the character would've felt a lot more 'human' and could've grown a lot as a character if, after Arthas died, if she had a legitimate break-down and maybe show some vulnerability. But nah; she hurls herself off a cliff, sees the afterlife and decides "No thnx!" and that's basically been her entire character arc. Gotta make sure she stays "cool".

    I dunno. I may be totally off-base here. This all just really feels like it touches on some of the shift with Blizzard and what it seems to see the audience as. It feels like they're making WoW for a completely different audience than it used to be for, and I wonder if that is to blame for some of its issues now.
    i will juts talk about your title here:

    WHAT audience ???

    Blizz stopped catering to a dedicated target audience around a decade ago. thats the one and only problem this game or some players with this game have. they cater towards a such broad mass audience without any direction, to get everyone on board, that they just can fail at 8/10 corners. even Ion said this a few times, ofc in some bloomy words to never let Blizz look bad.

    so: WHAT audience ???

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Both if we are honest, most of the target audience is in their 30's now and life changes, and people change and grow as well as their time/priorities.
    what target audience ? if you can describe modern WoWs target audience (lets say the last 3-4 xpacs) in 1 sentence (that is not „anybody who pay“) i buy you a pizza.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchers View Post
    times change, im afraid.. too many offended people nowdays..

    True.
    Narcissism at is his finest. a big pile of lil insignifiant personnal pb.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiza View Post
    Garithos most memorable action was driving the Blood Elves away from the Alliance due to his racism though. So it kinda makes sense that he is remembered for being a racist, because that is his defining trait in the eyes of history, being the racist who ensured that the Horde claims Quel'thalas as a member.
    I'm not arguing the fact that Garithos was racist towards non-human races. Racism is prevalent in almost all spheres of Warcraft and Garithos amped that up a notch within the Alliance.

    I spoke about the words they chose, specifically bigot. As I've said, this is a world in which there's endless wars, bloodshed and misery. Words like bigot are not impactful, they are meaningless and dilute the essence of what is going on. It was clearly chosen by someone who drew inspiration from their real life vocabulary(not just in terms of their raw word database, but contextually too) and then translated the exact same wording into a fictional universe in which it doesn't make sense. Their choice of words should match the setting they're describing.

    I'll make an example or two to show what I mean; Daelin Proudmoore fights the Horde as they're breaching the defenses around Theramore and shouts "Death to the blackbloods!". Thrall, infuriated by what he just heard, responds with "BIGOT!" and proceeds to enter bloodlust. Imagine Aman'thul summoning Sargeras back to the seat of the Pantheon with the rest of the titans and saying this: "Brother, your space fascism ends NOW!".

    As you can see the word bigot is absolutely void of any substantial visceral and emotional value within the context of what is transpiring. Now fast forward to Shaw writing this in a compendium; the apparently gay spymaster of the most powerful of the remaining human kingdoms, someone who is dealing with the darkest secrets known to intelligence organizations on Azeroth uses a word like... bigot. It just doesn't fit into the in character narrative of the game. We as out of character observes can say that Garithos was a bigot, but no characters from the Warcraft universe should as the word holds no power of meaning in Warcraft. It's a word worthy of fanction, not an official source of canon lore.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2020-08-28 at 12:56 AM.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I'm not arguing the fact that Garithos was racist towards non-human races. Racism is prevalent in almost all spheres of Warcraft and Garithos amped that up a notch within the Alliance.

    I spoke about the words they chose, specifically bigot. As I've said, this is a world in which there's endless wars, bloodshed and misery. Words like bigot are not impactful, they are meaningless and dilute the essence of what is going on. It was clearly chosen by someone who drew inspiration from their real life vocabulary(not just in terms of their raw word database, but contextually too) and then translated the exact same wording into a fictional universe in which it doesn't make sense. Their choice of words should match the setting they're describing.

    I'll make an example or two to show what I mean; Daelin Proudmoore fights the Horde as they're breaching the defenses around Theramore and shouts "Death to the blackbloods!". Thrall, infuriated by what he just heard, responds with "BIGOT!" and proceeds to enter bloodlust. Imagine Aman'thul summoning Sargeras back to the seat of the Pantheon with the rest of the titans and saying this: "Brother, your space fascism ends NOW!".

    As you can see the word bigot is absolutely void of any substantial visceral and emotional value within the context of what is transpiring. Now fast forward to Shaw writing this in a compendium; the apparently gay spymaster of the most powerful of the remaining human kingdoms, someone who is dealing with the darkest secrets known to intelligence organizations on Azeroth uses a word like... bigot. It just doesn't fit into the in character narrative of the game. We as out of character observes can say that Garithos was a bigot, but no characters from the Warcraft universe should as the word holds no power of meaning in Warcraft. It's a word worthy of fanction, not an official source of canon lore.
    Sorry, but I kinda feel like you are just a triggered little manchild because evül blizz put the GAY into your video games. I mean, if you get so uncomfortable with gays in your video games, maybe you should visit the gym.

    It is befitting to characterize Garithos as a bigot even in WoW because this is the only mark he made on the world. He was not a brilliant admiral and probably one of the great military commanders when it comes to naval warfare like for example Daelin. He hasn't done some at least somewhat important and world changing shit like Garrosh. He was the incompetent guy who got into a position where he contributed nothing and drove away an important military ally of the Alliance into the Horde. And then Sylvanas turned him into Ghoul Shit. Thats his legacy. And you are offended because Garithos was always the character who represents a certain gamer demographic the strongest: Racist, incompetent and being ganked by a woman player.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiza View Post
    Sorry, but I kinda feel like you are just a triggered little manchild because evül blizz put the GAY into your video games. I mean, if you get so uncomfortable with gays in your video games, maybe you should visit the gym.
    You took my arguement, which was critical of what they're doing within the universe and managed to make this a personal attack. Why? To what end? How and for what reason does someone steer a discussion from discussing things of fiction in a topic like this to something like that? Not only that, but in your search for greater and concealed meaning you absolutely missed my point.

    I simply pointed out that words like "bigot" have no place in Warcraft because bigotry is an everyday thing; it is meaningless, has no impact, lacks any visceral and in-universe attachment; entire kingdoms and species have been wiped out in this universe for being different and the word "bigot" is meant to be an impactful? And it is being used by a spymaster who has seen the most catastrophic events first hand? They need to choose their words in a way that resonates with the setting. If you disagree with it, then there's a way of making that clear without personal attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiza
    And you are offended because Garithos was always the character who represents a certain gamer demographic the strongest: Racist, incompetent and being ganked by a woman player.
    You haven't even read my post properly, without spicing it up with your own connotations at least. Garithos' fate and description should match the Warcraft universe. Garithos isn't a public servant or pop star from real life to be characterized as a "bigot"; he's a videogame character and descriptions of him should match the severity and brutality of the setting.

    Instead of understanding what I meant - and that is that Garithos should be described with words that are more severe and harsher than "bigot"(essentially agreeing with Shaw's in character take, but wanting it to be more visceral) - your indoctrinated way of thinking disallows you from grasping this.

    You're clearly very opinionated and seemingly have no desire to lead a normal discussion. I'll leave you to your thoughts and won't entertain your derailing of the discussion any further.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2020-09-07 at 09:43 AM.

  10. #190
    Classic WoW was made by extremely passionate dedicated MMO players that made a game they knew they and people like them would enjoy in a massive passion project because the developers were the audience and knew exactly what to cater to.

    Modern WoW is made by a soulless corporate entity and injects marketing statistics into the veins on it's neck in order to appeal to absolutely everyone on planet earth for maximum profit and thus truly appeals to absolutely no one.

  11. #191
    High Overlord
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    I can't answer your question as a representative of the whole community. But I can speak for myself, I know for sure that I changed. I started playing in 2007 / 2008 that was me 12 years ago... in those 12 years: finished university, married and went full in my professional career, I am quite different than the 20 something guy I was. Heck I don't think anything sticked from those years except some friends (from university), my gf that is now my wife, and wow... I do not work in the same things and do not have the same amount of freetime. People change, and that change usually is brought by you growing up, priorities change a lot. What you consider important now, was likely irrelevant 10 years ago, and in 10 years the things you think are important now, are likely to be irrelevant to the future you.

  12. #192
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    world population is too large and now catering to nuts is very profitable, WH 40k now!
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  13. #193
    Scarab Lord
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    tldr

    Times change and the wheels keep turning
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  14. #194
    They have set their sights on a larger audience, but they are still trying to straddle the best of both worlds. The balance is between a niche but deeply invested customer base versus a much larger but flimsy one.

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