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  1. #21
    I remember having to run Kara all xpac during BC for easy badges and catch up for new raid members. It was awful, no thank you.

  2. #22
    It's quite okay to let old content die. Originally, WoW was not about finding reasons to go back to old content once you got what you needed, as content was designed to be great experiences you can move on from. It is mentally draining for players for content to not have a definitive end, which is probably why systems like WF/TFing turned off many players over time. Number one complaint I've had from friends and guildmates when they leave WoW is that they're tried of having treadmill content and infinite grinds, and they usually recall fondly of early expansions when you could be legitimately done with content. I honestly think WoW would have way more long-term retention if content was designed to be less about busy work and keeping you in the game and more about creating great moments that you can experience and move on from.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  3. #23
    Classic is fun, So why would it not be fun for newer expansions as well?

    Doing MC, BWL, ZG, Ony and now adding AQ40 to that as well.

  4. #24
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    ... and they usually recall fondly of early expansions when you could be legitimately done with content.
    That's great to hear....unfortunately when that happens there is the other group of ppl that is then here on the forum crying how there is nothing to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ReVnX View Post
    Btw, Quel'danas catch up gear came at the end of the Expansion with Sunwell
    Yep....and I got a lot of that on 3 of my alts. Maybe I would have had to move them to another guild...there just was no second raid group going with alts in my guild. And like I hinted...often my main helped out to do older content attuning new recruits. So less time for alts. This stuff unlocked accountwide would have been more to my liking.

    It changed in WotLK a bit...there were Naxx PuGs and we had ppl running 10 man groups for ToC and ICC. Probably my fondest memories of the game (Though ofc nothing beats my first ever 40 man MC raid..even entering the zone...wiping to the first two Molten Giants...then to Hellhounds...then to the imp packs - what a bunch of n00bs.

    Ofc after BC, we got catch up mechanisms in (almost?) every patch...and now in BfA that is Benthic and Black Empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    Classic is fun, So why would it not be fun for newer expansions as well?

    Doing MC, BWL, ZG, Ony and now adding AQ40 to that as well.
    Well...how long does it take your guild to clear MC, BWL, Ony? - There is your answer. I mean...they did have that sneaky trick where T2 pants were from Rag (and T2 helms from Ony?) - so they kinda kept it relevant through the gear.

    Must be a reason why they didn't carry on with that or expand it in a way that OP suggested.
    Last edited by det; 2020-08-09 at 02:14 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ElsaHosk View Post
    No thanks. I can barely find the motivation to enter old raids and one shot things for transmog.
    Just curious, would you still find it a chore if (one or both of) the following were true:
    - You could teleport to any "legacy" raid instance by talking to an npc located in your faction's capital city (org/sw)
    - While inside a "legacy" raid instance, your movement speed was increased by 200%

  6. #26
    id be ok with expanding timewalking to all raids and putting more effort into tuning. some bosses are a joke and some are a nightmare with the average pug shitters.

    i liked putting on all my old enchanted and socketed to the max gear with some old good setbonus and expansions worth of legendaries.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by pfbe View Post
    Just curious, would you still find it a chore if (one or both of) the following were true:
    - You could teleport to any "legacy" raid instance by talking to an npc located in your faction's capital city (org/sw)
    - While inside a "legacy" raid instance, your movement speed was increased by 200%
    Honestly, yeah, kinda. I'm just so sick of the enviorments. If it was just a white room with the bosses standing there, then maybe.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    Except you can probably clear all 3 old raids in Classic in a single night
    It could be the same with the OP's suggestion, with how overgeared we'd be for re-rerunning earlier raids.

  9. #29
    Stood in the Fire Phantombeard's Avatar
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    Blizzard did what your suggesting in Legion. I remember farming the Ursoc haste trinket when Antorus was current. I eventually got a 925 socket version of it. I enjoyed the chance of doing old raids and getting gear titanforged up to current patch gear. So many ppl hated it though blizz took it out. Maybe titanforging wasn't all that bad?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Killchain View Post
    Probably a terrible idea. But....shower thoughts....here we go.

    Im going to use shadowlands made up raids and made up item levels as an example

    Raid 1 releases ( Castle Nathria or whatever )
    Tier set for classes are in this raid.
    Ilvl 100
    Drops helm chest legs and shoulders
    Has 2 set and 4 set bonus

    Raid 2 releases in patch x.2 ( Bastion crypts or whatever )
    Drops tokens to upgrade helm chest legs and shoulders from ilvl 100 to ilvl 125 ( numbers are estimate )
    Tier set now has 6 set bonus
    Raid also drops ilvl 125 gloves and boots to round out 6 pieces of tier set.

    Raid 3 release in patch x.3 ( Ardenweald Thicket or whatever )
    Drops tokens to upgrade helm chest legs shoulders gloves and boots from ilvl 125 to ilvl 150
    Set now has 8 set bonus
    Raid drops ring and wrists to round out 8 pieces of the set.

    Tried poking holes in the idea.
    How would it work for PvP would set be disabled or do we let PvP'ers be sad
    Do m+'ers and PvP'ers get their own sets?
    Thoughts?
    It was kinda that way in Legion and most raiders I talked to hated it. There were trinkets, like ones from Ursoc, that were still good through mythic Nighthold. And everyone I spoke too hated "being forced" to do weekly mythic Ursoc runs and hope the trinket titanforges enough to be useful.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    People simply don't want to run old raids to have to gear up, even if it's only a patch behind. Locking current content behind weeks of old content sucks.
    Yes they do. Like you would have to be insane to think people want game content removed from them.

  12. #32
    I'd rather they just tuned up old raids (like naxx in Wrath but actually hard) as mid tier content

  13. #33
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    I've been raiding since the beginning and people really don't like doing old content, at all. Even 15 years ago people were ready to never step foot into MC again once BWL came out, but were all but forced to because of how itemization worked in vanilla. Aside from rare occurrences, no other expansion has existed where pieces of loot from over a year ago, let alone 6 months were extremely relevant throughout the life span of the expansion (blah blah blah, I know certain crafted items, set pieces and trinkets broke this rule).

    A lot you probably didn't raid in TBC but when T6 came out (Hyjal and BT), nearly every guild I knew stopped doing it entirely, because there was very little point in doing TK/SSC. Karazhan was different because of badges, and Gruul's Lair/Magtheridon's Lair (especially Gruul's Lair) were incredibly short, and most people didn't mind knocking those out. With little loot incentive existing in the traditional T5 instances, most people just didn't do them, because there was no reason to.

    We continued to clear BWL during Sunwell (dropping Hyjal), but nobody really liked doing it, and I was somebody with a vested interest in doing it because I still needed an OH glaive. You spent hours in an instance basically hoping for a rare legendary drop, some miscellaneous things that you didn't get during a 10 month period of farming BWL, and outside of that, just Illidan loot. Not a single person liked it, including myself.

    I think Blizzard realized that going back and doing older tiers of content isn't healthy for the game, and that catch up mechanisms are a way better way to get people involved in raiding. You might not agree with this assessment (at least in regards to how they do catch up), but I don't think the raiding game wouldn't have lasted as long as it did if you setup a system where every single raid matters, throughout the entire expansion. People would burn out, and quite honestly, living in one environment for 6 months (more for end of expansion raids), is more than enough.

    Legion flipped this on the head but for the wrong reasons (again, in my opinion). While some people liked doing world tours of old raid content, it was done almost exclusively for legendary drop chance, AP and a chance for an item or tier set to TF to unbelievable levels so that you could use it in the next tier of content. It seems silly to me from a game play perspective to encourage activities that require little thought to be an efficient gearing strategy, especially when some of that is tied to luck.

    The only idea I would have is to have single boss instances that get progressively more difficult over the course of an expansion, and the loot is updated to reflect that. The point stands though. I think people get fatigued being in the same place for too long, which is why a lot of raids that take place in the middle of an expansion are fondly remembered (true for my friends, and what I can gather from these forums too) and those that take place at the end of the expansion are met with 'it sucked', or 'meh'.

  14. #34
    I think I tried the first boss in sunwell once or twice but we killed illidan the week wrath released so we were slow but there still wasn't that many raiding guilds more than what there were in classic, but not close to what its like with this rerelease. zul aman was catchup for t5/t6 and maybe to a lesser degree magisters terrace. sunwell was like naxx though, i don't think many guilds actually did it. but it was mostly irrelevant anyway seeing as the 3 bits of t6 you could get didn't add any more set bonuses or anything it just meant you could use other pieces of gear I guess but the instance didn't seem like it was out that long before wrath released. there wouldn't have been much time to really enjoy farming it. although I do remember that I used t6 into 25man naxx I think it was actually better than 10 man t7.

    classic likely has the best way of keeping content relevant is just setting the bar on upgrades low enough so that some items are questionably ever replaceable. for me as a tank the accuria band comes to mind, ill probably end up using that in naxx and perhaps ill never replace it. obviously the problem this is that you end up running mc until the end for raggy loots and bindings.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2020-08-09 at 10:10 PM.

  15. #35
    Go back to the tbc progression model?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Yes they do. Like you would have to be insane to think people want game content removed from them.
    And noone stops them from doing it, because its not actually removed.

    But people that have done this content for 6 months don't want to feel forced to continue doing it when they could instead be focusing all their time on new content instead. That is the key point here. Having to keep running old content for gear takes away from time to do the new content. And any content just gets boring when you have done it for the last 6 months. Nothing is fun forever.

    We had variations of these models before in Classic and TBC, and it just wasn't very well liked. There is a reason it stopped.
    Last edited by Nevcairiel; 2020-08-09 at 11:29 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Killchain View Post
    Probably a terrible idea. But....shower thoughts....here we go.

    Im going to use shadowlands made up raids and made up item levels as an example

    Raid 1 releases ( Castle Nathria or whatever )
    Tier set for classes are in this raid.
    Ilvl 100
    Drops helm chest legs and shoulders
    Has 2 set and 4 set bonus

    Raid 2 releases in patch x.2 ( Bastion crypts or whatever )
    Drops tokens to upgrade helm chest legs and shoulders from ilvl 100 to ilvl 125 ( numbers are estimate )
    Tier set now has 6 set bonus
    Raid also drops ilvl 125 gloves and boots to round out 6 pieces of tier set.

    Raid 3 release in patch x.3 ( Ardenweald Thicket or whatever )
    Drops tokens to upgrade helm chest legs shoulders gloves and boots from ilvl 125 to ilvl 150
    Set now has 8 set bonus
    Raid drops ring and wrists to round out 8 pieces of the set.

    Tried poking holes in the idea.
    How would it work for PvP would set be disabled or do we let PvP'ers be sad
    Do m+'ers and PvP'ers get their own sets?
    Thoughts?
    or, and stay with me here, we don't immediately give gear upon a patches release that is on par with mythic gear from the prior raid? that would certainly stop making raids obsolete the second a new raid is out.

  18. #38
    Herald of the Titans Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Yes they do. Like you would have to be insane to think people want game content removed from them.
    Right, people like doing them as mog runs, where you go back in better gear and stomp the shit out of it for cool stuff. What people don't like is having to spend months clearing old content they've done dozens of times already just to get their alts raid viable. Or even worse it's a massive gate for new/returning players to have to grind through multiple tiers for months before getting to do the actual content with significantly less time than you should have because you spent months grinding old raids.

    And even then, if you do want to spend months gearing your alts in old raids just to live that nostalgia then have at it, nothing on live servers is stopping you except your own impulses.

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