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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    What kind of rock did you crawl out from under? did you miss the past 2 expansions?

    You pretty much have had to live in M+ & Wquests for the past expansions in order to keep up.

    raid logging is long dead.
    If you raid logged you were in no way so far behind that you couldn't kill the boss. Not in EN, ToV, NH, ToS, Ant, Uldir, the two boss one, BoD, Azshara or Ny'alotha.

    Could you a bit behind? Maybe. Was it mathmatically impossible to kill the bosses? Hell no.

    Sorry normal people don't go with "I am fooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorced to do it." if your raid leader is telling you to. Say no, if they act up tell them to stop being a god damn child and go fuck themselves.

  2. #22
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casperite View Post
    And really nothing outside raids ever has been needed to be viable in raids. There are catch up mechanics and ways to get additional gear on top of raiding, but it has never been necessary to do. I think your real problem is losing the special feeling of only getting high ilvl gear from raiding. Sorry snowflake, that time is long gone.
    Vanilla- dungeons for attunements/gear/professions, world content for professions/reps/attunements/gear
    tbc- the same
    wotlk- dungeons for badges, world for reps/professions/enchants
    cata- same
    mop- same
    wod- not really anything but raid
    legion and bfa are the ones with M+ so yeah, but you would have to be thick to think that we have never required having to do content outside of raids to raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    What kind of rock did you crawl out from under? did you miss the past 2 expansions?

    You pretty much have had to live in M+ & Wquests for the past expansions in order to keep up.

    raid logging is long dead.
    raid logging was really only WoD. other then that you would always be somewhat behind, you can do it but you would be called lazy, and you would be, cause you would be doing less then you could in an actual farming settup.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by StreetLight777 View Post
    Ok DO NOT Google Super Squirt Day from a work computer...
    I had to make sure I didn't accidentally open MMO-C in Incognito mode after reading that one.

  4. #24
    Legendary! Logwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skorgg View Post
    That video was sickkkkkk
    Yeah it was!!!!

  5. #25
    Guns having good shooting sound? Get out of here. In current WoW we have wet fart sounds to not trigger people. Get it? Gun "triggering" people? Haha I crack myself up sometimes.

  6. #26
    Please dont make us have to try to convince our poor guildtanks to run 5+ groups into 10 m+ each, every damn week... this is a really shitty idea. Make it 1, 3, 5 at MAX, if even that much!

    yeah blabla optional, blabla pug it.... yeah pug is not fun at all and it's not THAT optional if you wanna stay decently competitive within your guild! :P

  7. #27
    I've been wondering if IKedit did scrap that series or not. It's good to see it's still a thing.

  8. #28
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    What kind of rock did you crawl out from under? did you miss the past 2 expansions?

    You pretty much have had to live in M+ & Wquests for the past expansions in order to keep up.

    raid logging is long dead.
    People were like "Oh...I don't have 19 friends...I wish mythic raiding with 10 pl was coming back or there was another way to have fun at a high difficult level but with just..like...family" (They really were asking for this...not massive QQ threads, but suggestions after Blizzard scrapped the 10 man raid size.)

    I do believe that this request (and maybe the popularity of rifts in Diablo3?) lead to mythic 5 mans. Ofc..the moment this is introdiuced, even if the loot is a tad lower than mythic raiding...mythic raiders WILL jump at the opportunity to do that content as well. And as usually this gets "abused" in a way that raidleaders "force" ppl to do that stuff and people post things like "You pretty much have had to live in M+ & Wquests for the past expansions in order to keep up"

    Not a critique - just an observation.

    The game offers different forms to experience endgame content. Players turn it into "forced to do it all"

  9. #29
    Dont make us farm 10 raid bosses a week + 10 mythic dungeons + lots of PVP. I'd Suggest 1-4 bosses max, 1-3 Mythic dungeons and 1-3 battlgroounds/100-250 Concquest or 1 of each per week.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    People were like "Oh...I don't have 19 friends...I wish mythic raiding with 10 pl was coming back or there was another way to have fun at a high difficult level but with just..like...family" (They really were asking for this...not massive QQ threads, but suggestions after Blizzard scrapped the 10 man raid size.)

    I do believe that this request (and maybe the popularity of rifts in Diablo3?) lead to mythic 5 mans. Ofc..the moment this is introdiuced, even if the loot is a tad lower than mythic raiding...mythic raiders WILL jump at the opportunity to do that content as well. And as usually this gets "abused" in a way that raidleaders "force" ppl to do that stuff and people post things like "You pretty much have had to live in M+ & Wquests for the past expansions in order to keep up"

    Not a critique - just an observation.

    The game offers different forms to experience endgame content. Players turn it into "forced to do it all"
    Most people would boot you from the raid if you are lazy or "don't keep up" thus the "Feeling forced to do it" otherwise you can't participate in the raid content any more

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Galexander View Post
    Dont make us farm 10 raid bosses a week + 10 mythic dungeons + lots of PVP. I'd Suggest 1-4 bosses max, 1-3 Mythic dungeons and 1-3 battlgroounds/100-250 Concquest or 1 of each per week.
    Who is making you? No matter how much you do you'll still only get 1 item.

    3 bosses, 4 dungeons and 125 conquest will give you 4 items to choose your 1 reward from.

  12. #32
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    Most people would boot you from the raid if you are lazy or "don't keep up" thus the "Feeling forced to do it" otherwise you can't participate in the raid content any more
    Not my experience from raiding 8 years and in my guild..not if you pull your weight during the raid and come prepared. Never to an extend "If you are not weekly maxed on AP, fuck off" - and if "most people" are like that - then I am glad I never had to play with them.

    Then again..I won't pretend to know what "Most people do" - kinda never met the biggest chunk of what is out there in person or raided with.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Not my experience from raiding 8 years and in my guild..not if you pull your weight during the raid and come prepared. Never to an extend "If you are not weekly maxed on AP, fuck off" - and if "most people" are like that - then I am glad I never had to play with them.

    Then again..I won't pretend to know what "Most people do" - kinda never met the biggest chunk of what is out there in person or raided with.
    A lot of us who like to raid have lives that don't allow us to raid at any time so looking for raid teams that fit our schedule and can get cutting edge is not an easy task and leaving a guild with a few toxic people or demanding raid leaders isn't usually a viable option. I am happy that you haven't experienced this, but I have been raiding mythic since Legion, and have been a semi hardcore raider since WotLK and I have seen plenty of people get booted from the many guilds I have been a part of because they haven't kept up with all of the grinds. Mythic+ is a particularly new and time consuming endeavor that a lot of mythic raiders are not too keen to push into, and since Legion they have been constantly forced to do so to some degree or another. I understand the frustration because it's an entirely new endgame instead of just side content with a lot of information to learn and execute, and if you aren't doing a +10-15 you aren't getting the gear that is viable compared to mythic raid loot. Azerite gear was a huge issue with this, as were tier sets for mythic+ fans back in Legion, so hopefully with Shadowlands people will lessen their insecurity over this system.

    I enjoy both Mythic+ and Mythic raids, but I do think all of the grinding this expansion was absurd and overwhelming.

  14. #34
    Old God Orby's Avatar
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    Ikedit and Hurricane are like two of my favourites in what they do. As an animator admire their work so much

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavox View Post
    Guns having good shooting sound? Get out of here. In current WoW we have wet fart sounds to not trigger people. Get it? Gun "triggering" people? Haha I crack myself up sometimes.
    Yea I really do miss the old gun sounds, I don't like the pea shooters we currently have :P

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    People were like "Oh...I don't have 19 friends...I wish mythic raiding with 10 pl was coming back or there was another way to have fun at a high difficult level but with just..like...family" (They really were asking for this...not massive QQ threads, but suggestions after Blizzard scrapped the 10 man raid size.)

    I do believe that this request (and maybe the popularity of rifts in Diablo3?) lead to mythic 5 mans. Ofc..the moment this is introdiuced, even if the loot is a tad lower than mythic raiding...mythic raiders WILL jump at the opportunity to do that content as well. And as usually this gets "abused" in a way that raidleaders "force" ppl to do that stuff and people post things like "You pretty much have had to live in M+ & Wquests for the past expansions in order to keep up"

    Not a critique - just an observation.

    The game offers different forms to experience endgame content. Players turn it into "forced to do it all"
    if that stuff is capped, you are totally right. if the crazies CAN go 10 m+ dungeons, a trizillion raids and a godzillabillion pvp and CAN earn all the gear/rewards for all that stuff, they set the bar for the masses higher. not as high as they go, but come on, ppl will feel it needed to keep at least somewhat up to that. pugs will be full of „xxx minimum“ and to get even the half of that minimum you also have to invest like a crazy chicken.

    long story short:

    the thing blizz did right in WotlK and MoP valor points (as an example) was the cap. in the case of SL, if done right, choose your way to go (so everyone can choose what they like most), do it and be finished for the week (with a low amount of investment). everything else end in „do million dungeons/raids, even lfr, for bad luck protection“ Legendaries Legion problem or the „omg farm Azerite to death“ BfA version.

    Wotlk and MoP had no problems, even with caps and even for mega hardcore ppl. The mega hardcore ppl will not get bored, just bc that shit has a cap. and even, when, give em vanity stuff or something, and they are happy.

    simple truth:
    - give 95% of the rewards for a 20% time investment of the week, to everyone. and give another 5% rewards for another 60% time investment additional to the hardcore ppl. well, then everything is fine.
    - give endless rewards for endless time investment unscaled to everyone. well, nothing is fine. in the end this just hurts the game and his population long term.

    in short: doing this shit without caps is utterly nonsense.



    that said and besides all of the above, 2 final things:

    1) it seems ppl have enough of being in a treadmill.

    2) WoW is the only game on this planet that REALLY do not need that. it offers SO much stuff, so many aspects, so many things to do, it got so old/adult, with so many possibilities. heck, this game REALLY do not need a treadmill to keep up a feeling of „something“ to do, to keep ppl playing. in some games, i understand this. but WoW REALLY do not need this to offer ppl something to do.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-08-11 at 01:31 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    2) WoW is the only game on this planet that REALLY do not need that. it offers SO much stuff, so many aspects, so many things to do, it got so old/adult, with so many possibilities. heck, this game REALLY do not need a treadmill to keep up a feeling of „something“ to do, to keep ppl playing. in some games, i understand this. but WoW REALLY do not need this to offer ppl something to do.
    Or maybe players should excercise their agency and simply not run on every treadmill they see. For years and years and years the critique was "hey Blizzard there is nothing to do than raidlog". But now when we get endless grinds to always have something to do we learn that a lot of players are not able to pace themselves. That they hop on every treadmill no matter how small the rewards are with its diminshing returns.

    Adult players can use parental controls on themselves btw, if they need a little nudge when they can't control their urges.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Or maybe players should excercise their agency and simply not run on every treadmill they see. For years and years and years the critique was "hey Blizzard there is nothing to do than raidlog". But now when we get endless grinds to always have something to do we learn that a lot of players are not able to pace themselves. That they hop on every treadmill no matter how small the rewards are with its diminshing returns.

    Adult players can use parental controls on themselves btw, if they need a little nudge when they can't control their urges.
    My personal experience with this, is that players complain about a lack of content, but what they mean is there's a lack of content they value. I love raiding, and as a raider, when I complain that there's nothing to do, it's typically a content drought of too much time between raid releases. I didn't ask for the addition of world quests, as an example, or more rep grinds, or mandatory things from PVP. I was simply asking for a better raid release schedule.

    In the past, Blizzard heard players complaining they didn't want to have to PVP, or have to do dailies, or have to run 7 dungeons a week, etc. And I believe that was a community complain that stems from, "I don't want to have to do this content I don't enjoy, to get to do the content I do enjoy." But Blizzard just heard "We don't want to do.. stuff at all, ever." So then we got WoD...

    In WoD, people complained that all there was to do was raid, which was true. It was the perfect expansion for me, but people who enjoy rep grinds, pet collecting, mount collecting, dungeons, pvp (god... pvp in WoD), profession grinders, etc felt like they were generally left out in the early days. Garrisons were the source of so many things you normally had to go out and, like... do.

    Blizzard heard these complaints, and added a metric fuckton of content in Legion, and kept in in BfA. That included an eternal grind in terms of AP. But they really just heard, "More stuff." At times, Blizzard has asked, "What would make you do X or Y," and the community answered, "Rewards I value." And that's true. But Blizzard didn't ask, "What about X or Y has you not doing it without rewards you value?" And the answer is, "I don't like that content type."

    I know raiders that hate PVPing. I know PVPers that hate raiding. I know people hardcore invested in professions that do neither unless they need certain patterns/recipes.

    Blizzard's current design philosophy is, "Let's make all the content forever, and make all the content reward stuff for everyone." And that's great, except player psychology is fucky, and it leads players to believe that they have to do that for those rewards.

    Don't misunderstand. I'm not advocating for just... free stuff, because that's something people always point out when I bring this up. Instead, I think we need one of two solutions:

    1 Content only gives rewards relevant to that content: PVP gear is for PVP, M+ gear is for M+, raid gear is for raids, WQ rewards are for WQs (rep included, I guess?), etc.

    2 Content has shared rewards. This specific pair of pants, this exact pair of pants, can drop from emissary caches, M+, raids, and PVP. This essence can be obtained one of 5 ways, instead of having to do this specific piece of content for this specific essence. And either don't limit any of the content on drops/week, or have a shared limit on drops per week across content. M+ content is repeatable for loot, while raiding is not. You can't have an equivalency system with that paradigm. Now, I only do the content I like for the rewards I want. If I wanted, next week I could choose to try something else and still get rewarded, but I have no obligation (perceived or otherwise) to do that.

    To your original point, the playerbase will never adhere to your advice. It's a sad truth that Blizzard really does have to save players from themselves in terms of over-play and burnout, especially for content they don't like.

  18. #38
    Will I get the same ilvl and stats if I do one boss or 7 ?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Or maybe players should excercise their agency and simply not run on every treadmill they see. For years and years and years the critique was "hey Blizzard there is nothing to do than raidlog". But now when we get endless grinds to always have something to do we learn that a lot of players are not able to pace themselves. That they hop on every treadmill no matter how small the rewards are with its diminshing returns.

    Adult players can use parental controls on themselves btw, if they need a little nudge when they can't control their urges.
    3 things here:

    1) i have never saw that millions of armies whining there is nothing to do. ppl played alts, ppl played pvp. ppl used the whole game (for the stuff you no longer can find time for, cause of treadmillz). here and there was a post, yes. the same when here and there is a post about housing. but that giant shitstorm and masses that leave wow, because „nothing to do“. no. not my exp after 15 years of unsubbed wow.

    2) if they would do what you say and do not couple that shit to player character power, yes, maybe.

    3) a reward is not tiny when the „reward“ of your treadmillz do 30-70% of your dmg/heal or something. farming azerite for the last 1% ? yes, here you are totally right. no need for that. and imo no problem here. farming m+ to break bad luck protection and get the „right“ legendary and do instant 10% more dps or getting the right 3 essences in BfA and do instant 20% more dps.... are NOT tiny „rewards“.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-08-13 at 07:43 AM.

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