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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I definitely prefer DK now to what it was. I played them from the start, back in the days of blood DPS, 2H frost tanking, dual-wield unholy everything.

    Prior to the change to make all runes the same, DK's had to sit out their rotations at times when the runes didn't align in their favor or they didn't use a rune for anything, like unholy having no use for blood runes. I still remember T12's insta-one-shot of DK tanks due to death strike not landing (no shield). Yuck.

    No, they're absolutely much better off today.
    Blood DPS was the best DK's could be I miss it, and have no desire to play my DK since its death. I miss having the perfect rotation that you just had to repeat and you were golden.

  2. #22
    1. Systems that people nostalgically want that ultimately do nothing but slow you down only work if everyone gets their systems back and the game gets slower, otherwise, you're just nerfing a class for no reason.
    It's like locks and life tap, Tap kinda works in vanilla where mana constraints and lower incoming damage allows it to make sense. If blizzard just readded tap today it would be shit.

    2. The old rune system never really worked 'properly' especially after blizzard moved away from set rotations after wrath. Frost, for example, had to hit blood strike to get rid blood runes because they just didn't have a dps spell that used them. Blizzard wanting to remove blood flipping (because it was shit) was the beginning of the snowball that lead to the current system.
    If you wanted to account for this blizzard would have to add spells that specifically consumed certain runes but also didn't fuck with the cadence of the spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Blood DPS was the best DK's could be I miss it, and have no desire to play my DK since its death. I miss having the perfect rotation that you just had to repeat and you were golden.
    Even if blood dps was going to exist in cata (and we can argue if 'dude lmao just hit heart strike, the spec, the experience based on the book of the film' was worth keeping) you weren't going to have a rotation. One of blizzard's explicit design goals for cata was to move DK's away from set rotations to a priority system.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2020-10-01 at 10:39 AM.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by squidgod View Post
    Whats the point of runes when you can close your eyes & hit all the spells real fast, druid is broken too.
    This has to be one of the most random sentences in the world

  4. #24
    Sounds like junk to me, OP.

  5. #25
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire View Post
    Sounds like junk to me, OP.
    It kinda was....like Unholyground said you basically took the death runes talents for every spec...it didn't add much depth all it did was force you to spend one rotation on weak abilities so the second rotation was a full SS/OB/HS round.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  6. #26
    no. Runes are fine now, they used to be horrible. It used to be that you actually had a rotation and if you fucked up one rune then you played janky for the rest of the boss fight.

    No, dont get into game design please.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    1. Systems that people nostalgically want that ultimately do nothing but slow you down only work if everyone gets their systems back and the game gets slower, otherwise, you're just nerfing a class for no reason.
    It's like locks and life tap, Tap kinda works in vanilla where mana constraints and lower incoming damage allows it to make sense. If blizzard just readded tap today it would be shit.
    Are you aware that lifetap existed until BfA? It's by no means an ancient system and allowed Affliction to have life drain as a filler (whether that was balanced or not). It made warlocks more mobile and tanky.

    Sure, mana management is now reserved for arcane mages. But using your life as a resource could be something for Blizzard to explore, not only for warlocks but DKs as well. And the same could be said about the old rune system: You just have to balance out the inconveniences with something else. Every DD does damage, but a DD, that has harder time doing so should have increased utility or sustain.

  8. #28
    Legendary! Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Have to agree with OP a significant amount.

    Blood and Unholy became completely unfun in Legion, and BfA made it even worse.

    They could at least add Presences back - Frost could give you 10% Avoidance, Unholy 10% speed, and Blood 10% leech or something.

    But I really miss the baseline 1 second GCD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  9. #29
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Have to agree with OP a significant amount.

    Blood and Unholy became completely unfun in Legion, and BfA made it even worse.

    They could at least add Presences back - Frost could give you 10% Avoidance, Unholy 10% speed, and Blood 10% leech or something.

    But I really miss the baseline 1 second GCD.
    Speak for yourself.
    While relearning my class was *not* fun, I found blood and UDK to be amazing in Legion. Still miss WOD UDK tho.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Blood and Unholy became completely unfun in Legion, and BfA made it even worse.

    They could at least add Presences back - Frost could give you 10% Avoidance, Unholy 10% speed, and Blood 10% leech or something.
    I mean there's no accounting for taste but you realise before legion unholy was essentially entirely built around snapshotting which means after it was removed in ToT stuff like festering strike literally did nothing, like you literally only pressed it to flip runes for more casino strikes, extending dot duration was actually pointless.

    Whether or not you liked the old playstyle or dislike the new one, you've gotta admit they had to do something.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Are you aware that lifetap existed until BfA? It's by no means an ancient system and allowed Affliction to have life drain as a filler (whether that was balanced or not). It made warlocks more mobile and tanky.

    Sure, mana management is now reserved for arcane mages. But using your life as a resource could be something for Blizzard to explore, not only for warlocks but DKs as well. And the same could be said about the old rune system: You just have to balance out the inconveniences with something else. Every DD does damage, but a DD, that has harder time doing so should have increased utility or sustain.
    But that was my point, it was removed in BFA because it was pointless in spite of the attempts blizzard made to make it relevant in legion, not because of it.

    The simple fact is how the game works has changed so the 'choice' tap gives (risk for power) really just doesn't matter anymore. In vanilla, as you said dps specs managed mana so downtime was expected and most mechanics didn't one-shot you, so if you could convince a healer to pocket you or figured you weren't going to die you could risk skipping the wand phase for higher dps.
    Modern WoW isn't like that (do people even know you can attack with a wand anymore?), everyone is expected to have 100% uptime baseline and healers have to keep everyone topped all the time because most mechanics oneshot you. Resultantly the design space for 'health for power spells' has been massively reduced.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I mean there's no accounting for taste but you realise before legion unholy was essentially entirely built around snapshotting which means after it was removed in ToT stuff like festering strike literally did nothing, like you literally only pressed it to flip runes for more casino strikes, extending dot duration was actually pointless.

    Whether or not you liked the old playstyle or dislike the new one, you've gotta admit they had to do something.


    But that was my point, it was removed in BFA because it was pointless in spite of the attempts blizzard made to make it relevant in legion, not because of it.

    The simple fact is how the game works has changed so the 'choice' tap gives (risk for power) really just doesn't matter anymore. In vanilla, as you said dps specs managed mana so downtime was expected and most mechanics didn't one-shot you, so if you could convince a healer to pocket you or figured you weren't going to die you could risk skipping the wand phase for higher dps.
    Modern WoW isn't like that (do people even know you can attack with a wand anymore?), everyone is expected to have 100% uptime baseline and healers have to keep everyone topped all the time because most mechanics oneshot you. Resultantly the design space for 'health for power spells' has been massively reduced.
    I mean they could still bring something like it back: Health for power, can just mean you get 20% more haste if you sacrifice half your health for 10 sec or whatever. You take a risk and since actually no, not every mechanic oneshots you nowadays, the risk is real even when it comes to 'minor' mechanics or just raidwide damage.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    I mean they could still bring something like it back: Health for power, can just mean you get 20% more haste if you sacrifice half your health for 10 sec or whatever. You take a risk and since actually no, not every mechanic oneshots you nowadays, the risk is real even when it comes to 'minor' mechanics or just raidwide damage.
    I was speaking in generalist terms although there is a point with most layers of pve content where what I said is true enough for the generalization to hold.

    Besides, picking out some random situations where the mechanic might work is fine but you're still ignoring the system for the specifics. The game as a whole is just faster and healers are expected to have you topped off in almost all situations, the example you provide with x% health for haste would just get pressed on CD and you're kicking the can down to the healers.
    It's like I said in the past you could risk tap if your net was good enough not to get hit or you had a pocket to skip wanding, nowdays if tap existed locks would press it when their priority said to press it and the rolling hots just invalidate any thought.

    Perhaps I'm explaining myself poorly but I thought that the game's paradigm having shifted as the reason why tap was unrewarding and perfunctory was well understood and uncontroversial.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  13. #33
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    2x of each rune and DC for dumping was not a good, sorry.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    But that was my point, it was removed in BFA because it was pointless in spite of the attempts blizzard made to make it relevant in legion, not because of it.

    The simple fact is how the game works has changed so the 'choice' tap gives (risk for power) really just doesn't matter anymore. In vanilla, as you said dps specs managed mana so downtime was expected and most mechanics didn't one-shot you, so if you could convince a healer to pocket you or figured you weren't going to die you could risk skipping the wand phase for higher dps.
    Modern WoW isn't like that (do people even know you can attack with a wand anymore?), everyone is expected to have 100% uptime baseline and healers have to keep everyone topped all the time because most mechanics oneshot you. Resultantly the design space for 'health for power spells' has been massively reduced.
    No, Affliction's self heal was overpowered as hell. And instead of balancing it Blizzard removed the mechanic. And healers keeping you topped is not as common as before Legion, where the relative health pool of players was doubled (I think) in relation to HPS.
    You don't have to copy the lifetap mechanic 1:1. Give healing absorption, place a DoT on yourself (akin to shadows/discipline's shadowheal), etc. There is still a place for such mechanics in modern WoW that don't involve instantly being killed by a one hit ko. Warlocks also have 10% more stamina that let's them spend some of their life without dying.

    Old mechanics don't have to be removed. They made classes unique. Those mechanics just have to be adapted to the current game, which is certainly possible. Blizzard's class designers just have grown risk averse in their approach to such things.

  15. #35
    Legendary! Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I mean there's no accounting for taste but you realise before legion unholy was essentially entirely built around snapshotting which means after it was removed in ToT stuff like festering strike literally did nothing, like you literally only pressed it to flip runes for more casino strikes, extending dot duration was actually pointless.

    Whether or not you liked the old playstyle or dislike the new one, you've gotta admit they had to do something.
    The Blood and Frost rune spent on Festering Strike to extend your diseases on a single target were always better DPR then having to manually reapply them - If you let your diseases fall off ST, you had to reapply each one because otherwise to do so was a DPS loss.

    I dislike the current synergy between Scourge Strike, Festering Strike, and Festering Wounds, because it feels like they completely neutered Scourge Strike in order to fit Festering Strike into the rotation. It feels artificially forced.

    Ah well. I'll be moving to Frost once the pre-patch lands and Frost can use 2-Handers again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by squidgod View Post
    maybe I should work at Blizzard?
    Please no.

  17. #37
    I missed the old rune system.

    It was satisfying to play your class right and converting those annoying frost runes (playing as unholy) into death runes.

    Nowadays it's just spend runes and that's it, way too simplified.

    Wish they brought back blood presence, maybe give us and option for survival or emergency offtank? If they brought back presences:

    Unholy = 5% haste
    Frost = 5% mastery
    Blood = 5% vers or 5% crit
    Last edited by Beefkow; 2020-10-05 at 02:05 AM.

  18. #38
    I don't think you know what a broken class is.

    Everything works on DK and there's synergy between abilities and talent choices.

    A broken class is something like MM hunter, where their damage cooldown, trueshot just doesn't work cause they don't have enough focus to make use of it.
    Can you imagine if you had say breath of sindragosa but only 30 max Rune power? That would be broken.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Have to agree with OP a significant amount.

    Blood and Unholy became completely unfun in Legion, and BfA made it even worse.

    They could at least add Presences back - Frost could give you 10% Avoidance, Unholy 10% speed, and Blood 10% leech or something.

    But I really miss the baseline 1 second GCD.
    why would you make frost avoidance now that makes no sense why does a dps spec need that lol

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by hambone2626 View Post
    why would you make frost avoidance now that makes no sense why does a dps spec need that lol
    Because there are only so much tertiary stats in the game.

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