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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post


    Dude, just stop. This whole argument about using 1.12 as a base and that's why classic is so piss easy doesn't work anymore, now that AQ is out too and it got completely roflstomped as well. Even Naxx is gonna get cleared within 2-3 hours after release.
    Buying time - then when naxx gets absolutely stomped, they will say "no one EVER said any raids in vanilla were hard, stop strawmanning, no one EVER said that........TBC is going to wreck mythic raiders though!"

    And the cycle will repeat.

  2. #62
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Buying time - then when naxx gets absolutely stomped, they will say "no one EVER said any raids in vanilla were hard, stop strawmanning, no one EVER said that........TBC is going to wreck mythic raiders though!"

    And the cycle will repeat.
    It’s the same retail haters as always, acting hard that the original version of the game is just sooooo easy yet they are logging green parses on classic boss fights that last 27 seconds long... literally how many globals do you even get in 27 seconds.. even mythic wrathion for the most geared players in the game still takes MANY MINUTES to kill.. and that fights garbage easy..

    It’s fine right NAXX will b SO HARD

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    First off, comparing dungeons to an actual raid that drops tier set items is a stretch.

    Second, those dungeons dropped loot that is actually superior to items from raids on occassion and due to only having two items per boss on 40 people, it's less likely to get loot than 3-4 items on 25.
    Karazhan has barely any items that are superior to SSC / TK loot besides some trinkets.

    If SSC / TK are open right off the bat, then all of Tier 4 are completely fly over content besides Attunements and DST.
    Which is fine. Back in the day barely any guilds were capable of doing this. Sure, there will be 1000s if not 10000s that would do that today but that's the way it was released and if they did classic TBC, that's how they should do it again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    It will be harder but still steamrolled.



    Nihilum merged with SK Gaming and became Ensidia at that time but i am not sure if it is the guild you are looking for.



    Yes.
    God damn, Ensidia/November 25th/et al was all way back in the BC days? It seems like just yesterday*.

    *Not really just yesterday, but god damn doesn't seem like 10+ years ago.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Sure, there will be 1000s if not 10000s that would do that today but that's the way it was released and if they did classic TBC, that's how they should do it again.
    If you want to argue for the sake of authentictiy, fair enough, but still think it's not good for TBC overall because it will heavily screw with Arena, because T5 is obviously superior than S1 Gladiator gear.
    Not to mention that will also invalidate some of the progression from Heroics and Reputation.

    After all, we're not just including T5, we also include Hyjal and especially the Archimonde Loot table is completely nuts.

    Adhering to authenticity is fine and all, but i think one of the lessons from Classic is adhering to authenticity solely for the sake of it will burn out people from the game faster with little else to gain.

    And T4 alongside Heroics absolutely suffices for a first tier in my opinion.

    If you follow the release of TBC like in Classic, you will have BT about 4 months after release, while Arena is still stuck in Season one (!), then you get ZA ~6months afterwards, followed by SWP ~5 months later.
    Following that release schedule just wastes so much potential and fucks Arena (which is a feature some people are looking forward to) even further, which is already screwed by TBC Class design, no need to further screw with it by making OP PvE items available way before their PvP equivalents are.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-09-07 at 11:23 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I got the reference, but the modern voice chat is still being used, no memes repeating.

    And quite frankly, during 2.2 people were still busy progressing, while during 6.1, people were sitting in their garrison.
    You mean progressing through attunement, which in this day and age would be crucified as shallow and pointless timegating? "How dare you make me run through every heroic dungeon and every old raid before I can do the newest one that actually matters?!"
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You mean progressing through attunement, which in this day and age would be crucified as shallow and pointless timegating? "How dare you make me run through every heroic dungeon and every old raid before I can do the newest one that actually matters?!"
    On top of the progression path being totally stupid- you go from 5 man dungeons to 10 man raids to 25 man raids? That's silly. Timegate tier 5 and your progression guild has all of 3 bosses to raid for months, with all the rest of the content being split raiding an easy 10 man raid for mediocre gear with your 25 man roster. Don't timegate tier 5 and everything else is flyover content (once attunements are finally over and done with) except for more casual guilds stuck in Heroics and Kara forevermore getting their good players potentially poached.

    Methinks there's a very good reason Blizzard has never repeated TBC's content model.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  8. #68
    Some encounters in TBC Classic can actually take lots of attempts and strain players, especially those that aren't members of world first steamroll ultraminmax club.
    Obviously not hundreds of attempts per boss, as strategy guides are widely available everywhere and there is more than a decade of knowledge.
    But the tuning of Sunwell bosses was vastly different to Classic raid tuning.
    Player skill was also well developed at this point.
    If there is a 100-point scale of player skill and knowledge it would go from 0 to 60-70 in Vanilla and from 60-70 to about 90 in TBC. Top-end players from late TBC weren't that much less hardcore than current top-end players.

  9. #69
    What about mother Shazzrah? Will it be possible without the SR gear?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Athulua View Post
    Some encounters in TBC Classic can actually take lots of attempts and strain players, especially those that aren't members of world first steamroll ultraminmax club.
    Obviously not hundreds of attempts per boss, as strategy guides are widely available everywhere and there is more than a decade of knowledge.
    But the tuning of Sunwell bosses was vastly different to Classic raid tuning.
    Player skill was also well developed at this point.
    If there is a 100-point scale of player skill and knowledge it would go from 0 to 60-70 in Vanilla and from 60-70 to about 90 in TBC. Top-end players from late TBC weren't that much less hardcore than current top-end players.
    I joined a pve guild before the sun well patch, BT was rly easy for them at that point, but I remember few interesting fights also sunwell had fights with some personal responsibility, I remember people wiping us in brutallus non stop. All these were like 10 years ago tho, so I have no clue how hard will these be for players at them moment.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You mean progressing through attunement, which in this day and age would be crucified as shallow and pointless timegating? "How dare you make me run through every heroic dungeon and every old raid before I can do the newest one that actually matters?!"
    The major issue of Attunements was the recruiting part, not necessarily doing it the first time.

    If you were in Hyjal or BT and some guy quit / left and you recruited someone from a guild who hasn't killed Vashj / Kael'thas, you had to kill Vashj / Kael'thas just for them so they can actually help you out on progression, because you needed those down to enter Hyjal and you needed to enter Hyjal to enter BT.

    The major flaw of those attunements wasn't doing them with your raid for the first time, but getting new recruits into the raid you want to progress.

    The breaking point where the TK / Hyjal attunement in particular.

    TK attunement required you to kill Magtheridon, which most guilds skipped after the bulk of the guild was attuned as he was difficult for his loot table - hence you had to go back and kill that boss *everytime* someone needed TK attunement.
    Hyjal attunement was a massive pain because you couldn't just do Vashj / Kael'thas right off the bat but had to clear the enterity of SSC / TK just to kill those - again just so a single person could actually zone into the raid to help you on progression.

    SSC & BT attunement were bearable, SSC required you to kill Gruul (non issue for any guild tackling T5 / T6 content) and Nightbane, not a huge deal because Karazhan was 10man and you could summon Nightbane after the Opera event.
    BT attunement required doing some quests in Shadowmoon Valley (non issue), walking into an SSC ID with Fathom Lord being dead, killing Al'ar and Rage Winterchill - tad more effort but still manageable.

    Ignoring the steps that require you to enter Heroic dungeons, if you had a guild not full of assbags, those steps were usually not an issue as finding four people to help is easier than wasting precious raid time on getting people attuned.

    That aside, the gear progression in TBC was still largely linear (besides maybe 2.4), guilds stuck in T4 weren't ready for T6 content anyway.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-09-08 at 04:06 PM.

  12. #72
    There also was a chinese or russian guild in TBC that cleared Black Temple in full green gear
    I remembered the news because it was insane to everyone at the time but I can't find anything on google anymore

    (if someone already mentioned that - I didn't read the whole thread)

  13. #73
    Stood in the Fire terminaltrip421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    the gear progression in TBC was still largely linear (besides maybe 2.4), guilds stuck in T4 weren't ready for T6 content anyway.
    this is why I have a hard time imagining TBC being facerolled, the content seemed heavily gear dependent and gear acquisition was a bitch prior to the wrath pre-patch. even though I know players were that bad (wiping because of the people who had enough HP to soak a shatter killing others a problem a guild I was in had despite the content being on supposedly being on farm) but its' hard to imagine that the players in the top guilds on my server progressing slowly was due to player ability and not gear / gear dependent dps checks.

    pre-wrath pre-patch I could name virtually every raiding guild horde and alliance on my server, post patch everyone and their brother was not only raiding content but creating pugs with ridiculous gear requirements. people you know never set a foot inside anything but kara and heroic dungeons pre-patch. that was the difference the accessibility of gear had, and obviously some newly minted gods of being op, but gear had something to do with that too.

  14. #74
    Being harder than Classic is an extremely low bench mark.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Pper View Post
    There also was a chinese or russian guild in TBC that cleared Black Temple in full green gear
    I remembered the news because it was insane to everyone at the time but I can't find anything on google anymore

    (if someone already mentioned that - I didn't read the whole thread)
    I think a Chinese guild did it with many players still in tier 3 gear. I'd like to see the full green thing though if it's true.

  16. #76
    Epic! Uoyredrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terminaltrip421 View Post
    this is why I have a hard time imagining TBC being facerolled, the content seemed heavily gear dependent and gear acquisition was a bitch prior to the wrath pre-patch. even though I know players were that bad (wiping because of the people who had enough HP to soak a shatter killing others a problem a guild I was in had despite the content being on supposedly being on farm) but its' hard to imagine that the players in the top guilds on my server progressing slowly was due to player ability and not gear / gear dependent dps checks.

    pre-wrath pre-patch I could name virtually every raiding guild horde and alliance on my server, post patch everyone and their brother was not only raiding content but creating pugs with ridiculous gear requirements. people you know never set a foot inside anything but kara and heroic dungeons pre-patch. that was the difference the accessibility of gear had, and obviously some newly minted gods of being op, but gear had something to do with that too.
    Up until sunwell everything will be cleared easily by guilds with good coordination. Sunwell does have several big gear checks...it won't be quite as easy to just run in and get a world first right away with sunwell. Brutallus can easily global full t6 tanks, The raid damage on twins will destroy your healers mana, and you will never get past M'uru's dps check if your raid has insufficient gear. Sunwell was the only truly "hard" raid in TBC and it was tuned to require raids in mostly t6 gear to clear. I'm sure people will be able to do it more easily than back in the day...but a lot of people on these forums are going to be in for a rude awakening when they get there.

    But yeah up until then people will steamroll. Everything prior to sunwell was easy, including all of BT. Though pre-nerf gruul would probably still give plenty of guilds trouble I imagine but I doubt they'll put that in the game.

  17. #77
    don't know about wich guild it was but im 99% certain tbc will be a complete snoozefest difficulty wise, except possible sunwell wich at least will feel like a somewhat tuned raid.

    Not because it was always easy and guild back then sucked (tbc was brutal at the start and sunwell was no joke, bt and hyjal thou were complete letdowns even of their time difficultywise.)

    But if we look form blizzards perspective: They can do it the easy way and release tbc in the 2.4 version and just remove some stuff to be added later (the classic approach).
    This will mean that all the nerfs and changes to gear are already in the game. So all content up to illidan will be roguhly as difficult as bwl/aq was in classic.
    However, this also means all the buggs are fixed ,vashj and al'ar were famously bugged for a long time in tbc (althou still killable, at least for one guild). I doubt blizzard will re-release the game with known bugs in it.

    I think the best we can hope for is a 2.1 patch release. Sure, gruul/mag/ssc/nightbane will already have been nerfed at this point but at least we will get the legit experience in tk and vashj wich is something. What sucks here thou is that all the heroic dungs were nerfed in this patch aswell, and thats something of a bummer.

    Will be interesting to see if mother sharaz is bruteforceable without shadowresgear or not.
    Last edited by Aphrel; 2020-09-09 at 05:55 AM.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    don't know about wich guild it was but im 99% certain tbc will be a complete snoozefest difficulty wise, except possible sunwell wich at least will feel like a somewhat tuned raid.

    Not because it was always easy and guild back then sucked (tbc was brutal at the start and sunwell was no joke, bt and hyjal thou were complete letdowns even of their time difficultywise.)

    But if we look form blizzards perspective: They can do it the easy way and release tbc in the 2.4 version and just remove some stuff to be added later (the classic approach).
    This will mean that all the nerfs and changes to gear are already in the game. So all content up to illidan will be roguhly as difficult as bwl/aq was in classic.
    However, this also means all the buggs are fixed ,vashj and al'ar were famously bugged for a long time in tbc (althou still killable, at least for one guild). I doubt blizzard will re-release the game with known bugs in it.

    I think the best we can hope for is a 2.1 patch release. Sure, gruul/mag/ssc/nightbane will already have been nerfed at this point but at least we will get the legit experience in tk and vashj wich is something. What sucks here thou is that all the heroic dungs were nerfed in this patch aswell, and thats something of a bummer.

    Will be interesting to see if mother sharaz is bruteforceable without shadowresgear or not.
    Got a link for the patch notes with all the nerfs? My phone isn't behaving right now, although I'm sure it's easy to find.

    The funny thing is watching the overly nostalgic classic fans already making "pre-excuses" and the expansion hasn't even been announced yet.

  19. #79
    China didnt get raids until T6 was out.

    they cleared Black temple in T4 gear.

    that was insane actually

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by drbatman View Post
    China didnt get raids until T6 was out.

    they cleared Black temple in T4 gear.

    that was insane actually
    A lot of T3 actually.

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