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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    A righteous liberal democracy is better than a righteous leader... your dichotomy is predicated on comparing success to failure. If you treat them equally, you can’t make your argument.



    No, because the fixing requires the same masses. You are just torturing them until they toss the tea in ocean... get boners for guillotine or erase them from existence.



    I’m god... wtf?
    To each their own. I know what I like. You can likewise choose what you will. Some like Chocolate, some like Vanilla.

  2. #82
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    To each their own. I know what I like. You can likewise choose what you will. Some like Chocolate, some like Vanilla.
    It’s not a mater of like... presenting one as a failure, while the other as a success, as your dichotomy... means it’s not a mater of like.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    It’s not a mater of like... presenting one as a failure, while the other as a success, as your dichotomy... means it’s not a mater of like.
    Liberal Democracy is also a failure. It is failing around the world as we speak, including the US. In a faster manner than Monarchies. Since both are failures I will choose the one I like most, the one that lasted the longest in history.

  4. #84
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    Liberal Democracy is also a failure. It is failing around the world as we speak, including the US. In a faster manner than Monarchies. Since both are failures I will choose the one I like most, the one that lasted the longest in history.
    It’s not failing... it’s not switching to monarchy... if you present both as a failure or both as a success, the preferred option is obvious. Remove bias, think pragmatically... it’s not hard...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    It’s not failing... it’s not switching to monarchy... if you present both as a failure or both as a success, the preferred option is obvious. Remove bias, think pragmatically... it’s not hard...
    It is failing; Is Russia a Liberal Democracy, was it really ever? Is Israel still a Liberal Democracy? Is Turkey?

    The US is going the same way. I prefer a Monarchy under a wise Leader than a Democracy which is falling apart currently. If Democracy become healthy again I might change my mind.

    But John Adams had a lot to say on that point:

    Because We have no Government armed with Power capable of contending with human Passions unbridled by morality and Religion. Avarice, Ambition, Revenge or Galantry, would break the strongest Cords of our Constitution as a Whale goes through a Net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
    https://founders.archives.gov/docume.../99-02-02-3102

  6. #86
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    A righteous liberal democracy is better than a righteous leader...
    Right so any country can have the exact same policies regardless of whether it's decided by a democracy or an absolute leader. But the only reason a person would prefer an absolute leader is if they don't truly believe that their policy ideas are the best so they need a means of forcefully keeping bad policies set in stone.
    -------
    A problem consists of a conflict between two ideas. Problems are soluble.
    Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to predetermine the future.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Right so any country can have the exact same policies regardless of whether it's decided by a democracy or an absolute leader. But the only reason a person would prefer an absolute leader is if they don't truly believe that their policy ideas are the best so they need a means of forcefully keeping bad policies set in stone.
    "bad policies" are in the eyes of the beholder. A bad policy may keep a country stable (say under Saddam) and a "good" policy may make it unstable, say trying to force people into a democratic state going counter to their culture.

  8. #88
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    It is failing; Is Russia a Liberal Democracy, was it really ever? Is Israel still a Liberal Democracy? Is Turkey?
    When did Russia have a liberal democracy? For fuck’s sake... there is no country that proves singular leaders lead to failure, like Russia.

    The US is going the same way. I prefer a Monarchy under a wise Leader than a Democracy which is falling apart currently. If Democracy become healthy again I might change my mind.
    What way? A leader who treats a democracy, like a dictatorship, is causing a thousand to die per day, with over 10% unemployment and riots in the street? Last I checked, 3 million more voted for Hillary... if US was more democratic, all of the failures of a leader treating him self like monarch, wouldn’t exist... but... that’s your evidence? The state of US after Trump’s abuse of executive orders? Want to think that one through a bit?

    But John Adams had a lot to say on that point:

    https://founders.archives.gov/docume.../99-02-02-3102
    Are you suggesting you are not moral?
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    When did Russia have a liberal democracy? For fuck’s sake... there is no country that proves singular leaders lead to failure, like Russia.



    What way? A leader who treats a democracy, like a dictatorship, is causing a thousand to die per day, with over 10% unemployment and riots in the street? Last I checked, 3 million more voted for Hillary... if US was more democratic, all of the failures of a leader treating him self like monarch, wouldn’t exist... but... that’s your evidence? The state of US after Trump’s abuse of executive orders? Want to think that one through a bit?
    Not sure you are saying anything against what I am saying. You do not like Trump; many do. Some in secret, some with MAGA hats on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Are you suggesting you are not moral?
    Yes.

  10. #90
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Right so any country can have the exact same policies regardless of whether it's decided by a democracy or an absolute leader. But the only reason a person would prefer an absolute leader is if they don't truly believe that their policy ideas are the best so they need a means of forcefully keeping bad policies set in stone.
    It’s because the righteous for 1 versus the majority of population. It might be different strokes for different folks... but, I prefer failures that I can blame my self for, so that I can fix it. Call me lazy... but, I prefer to do that by voting, instead of shooting...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  11. #91
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    "bad policies" are in the eyes of the beholder. A bad policy may keep a country stable (say under Saddam) and a "good" policy may make it unstable, say trying to force people into a democratic state going counter to their culture.
    I disagree, for any two different policy values on the same topic there will always be one of them that is objectively superior in terms of solving the most problems and increasing human flourishing. If you're confident that your policy values are good then you should also have no fear that socio-economic results will corroborate your policy positions over time.
    Last edited by PC2; 2020-08-15 at 06:04 PM.
    -------
    A problem consists of a conflict between two ideas. Problems are soluble.
    Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to predetermine the future.

  12. #92
    When talking about dictators, people think about Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao which caused millions of death.
    This is prejudice.

    There are great emperors and kings in the past.

  13. #93
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    Not sure you are saying anything against what I am saying. You do not like Trump; many do. Some in secret, some with MAGA hats on.
    I am saying that Trump is an example of your singular leadership. I am saying that US is a constitutional democracy, not a liberal one. I am saying that Trump, is exactly why anyone claiming singular leadership as a good thing, is objectively wrong. This has nothing to do with liking Trump... 1000 dead is objectively bad... riots in the street is objectively bad... Trump is the executive order president, showing your singular leadership, to be objectively bad... when using US as an example of failure.

    Yes.
    That’s the problem bud... most people are... they have meds for that.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I disagree, for any two different policy values on the same topic there will always be one of them that is objectively superior in terms of solving the most problems and increasing human flourishing. If you're confident that your policy values are good then you should also have no fear that socio-economic results will corroborate your policy positions.
    This assumes you want maximum human flourishing, and not instead select people you would rather flourish.

    I may really dislike people that hold value X and seek to limit their influence on society.

  15. #95
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    When talking about dictators, people think about Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao which caused millions of death.
    This is prejudice.

    There are great emperors and kings in the past.
    It’s the revolutions... it’s kind of how we got here... a lot of dead poor people...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I am saying that Trump is an example of your singular leadership. I am saying that US is a constitutional democracy, not a liberal one. I am saying that Trump, is exactly why anyone claiming singular leadership as a good thing, is objectively wrong. This has nothing to do with liking Trump... 1000 dead is objectively bad... riots in the street is objectively bad... Trump is the executive order president, showing your singular leadership, to be objectively bad... when using US as an example of failure.
    Yet people still like Trump and will vote for him. You do not like him, many do, you blame him for things, the people that like him blame the Democrats.


    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That’s the problem bud... most people are... they have meds for that.
    They are? By what gauge? The Biblical one Adams was using? No, they are not, not at all.

  17. #97
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    I may really dislike people that hold value X and seek to limit their influence on society.
    Which is exactly why “you” should never be in power.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Which is exactly why “you” should never be in power.
    I do not want power. But that does not change the fact.

  19. #99
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    Dictators are not selected. They win via force, charismatic power, or if you are religious, Providence. And dictators are removed if they are bad enough. Either by someone in their own government, or by the people. The Tsars for instance were removed by people ultimately.

    In China the Emperor has power as long as they have the "Mandate of Heaven".
    You have literally just described various methods of selection. All leaders are selected or chosen in some manner or another. Every single one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    This assumes you want maximum human flourishing, and not instead select people you would rather flourish.
    Because any argument about such selection invalidates any possibility that your rule is benevolent and advantageous to society as a whole.

    You're just making an argument that would laud Hitler as one of the greatest leaders in human history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    I may really dislike people that hold value X and seek to limit their influence on society.
    And?

    Why should anyone give a shit what you want?

  20. #100
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohu wa-bohu View Post
    Yet people still like Trump and will vote for him. You do not like him, many do, you blame him for things, the people that like him blame the Democrats.
    Dude... we are talking righteous leadership here. Yes, people will believe these sort of leaders are righteous, even as 1000 of them dies per day. Yet... you don’t see a problem here, beyond disliking Trump? Cringe...

    They are? By what gauge? The Biblical one Adams was using? No, they are not, not at all.
    No, by modern standards... by the simplest golden rule...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

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