Torghast in Beta, Growing Concerns

[goldentforce]

Throughout the alpha so much love was sent by testers and the community towards Torghast, WoW's take at the a rogue-like gameplay experience. Since beta with so many features finally being in the game, a lot less testing has been put into showcasing Torghast, and preach's most recent video highlights a lot of changes that happened and several issues that have been created:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUaYJbYrOQs

Not here to just talk about preach's opinions on it but more on my issues with the changes and Torghast as of current iteration. If you want to know the general changes TLDR:
Torghast has been split into 2 modes, one with an 18 floor run with checkpoints to start future runs at intervals of 6(1-18,6-24,12-30,etc.) which are not for legendary currency. The other mode is set environment runs of 6 floors, 6 types in beta. You have to play all 6 as an introduction to Torghast.Torghast brokers also carry specific class powers.

These changes have resulted in a pretty negative experience of Torghast. 6 Floors isn't really enough to experience the fun peak of builds and results in basically 3 levels of a slower clearing of floors (which is fine) to reaching the first broker always at floor 3, and becoming immensely more powerful off of the number of guaranteed power increases with stat powers and now set class powers. This is then followed by absolutely stomping the last 3 floors with no challenge. First issue is the 6 run isn't really satisfying of an experience because it lacks progression and flow, but is okay an an intro. However doing 6 of these off the bat feels terrible and like a grind, and creates a bad experience of torghast. Having a cleaner progression of 1 18 floor intro run or only 3 would be way better to new players. Secondly because of how the 6 floors runs are designed, you essentially cannot fail because of how easy the first floors are and the sheer power you receive from brokers. Because only the 6 floor versions reward legendary components, to craft your legendaries you have to participate in especially auto win content (like islands/warfronts). This is a massive problem because the nature and fun of rogue-likes involves failure and bad runs. To me it seems that blizzard didn't want players to be able to lose out on legendaries because they are really fun improvements to overall gameplay and a large amount of power.

Even during beta Torghast had a lot of issues with mob scaling, players receiving too many powers, players becoming too strong too fast (off of things like brokers), no end boss or difficult challenge at the end like most other rogue-likes, and lack of variety of events outside of combat/traps that many rogue-likes have(Sts,hades,darkest dungeon,etc.) I really love Torghast and the type of solo repeatable content it could achieve and am still really looking forward to it, but I am worried that the recent changes make it more of a gimmick feature of the expansion which will take away some of its fun to support wow's end game power progression and the system will be abandoned at the end of SL. I really want them to focus on making torghast its own piece of content and iterating on it through SL's patches and hope that this type of content could become a permanent gameplay experience of wow. Just want to get my concerns out now.

[Brash]

I thought there was a sort of "endless" mode. Climb as high as you can feature that was in alpha. Did they change to these modes only? Or is the endless just not in beta atm, or did I make up the endless mode in my head and it never existed?

[chiosu]

I thought there was a sort of "endless" mode. Climb as high as you can feature that was in alpha. Did they change to these modes only? Or is the endless just not in beta atm, or did I make up the endless mode in my head and it never existed?

I also thought there was an endless mode.

[Azerate]

I hope they can just add some fun modes for Torghast that don't have legendaries tied to them. That way people who just want those can get it over with quickly and easily, and the optional one for challenging yourself and getting cosmetics will still be there.

And yeah, it does seem the endless mode is no longer present on beta.

[Justpassing]

It's a bummer if there indeed is no endless mode. Will be a shame.

[Sunslayer]

I don't see what looks so amazing about Torghast. I plan to do nothing but play enough to unlock my Legendary items and that's it. Maybe Torghast is more fun than it looks. I'll find it out.

[taishar68]

It was mentioned in the May 13 update that the twisting corridors were capped at 18 floors. But you can redo them over and over, I assume?

[goldentforce]

I thought there was a sort of "endless" mode. Climb as high as you can feature that was in alpha. Did they change to these modes only? Or is the endless just not in beta atm, or did I make up the endless mode in my head and it never existed?

It was never truly endless but supposed to be near endless. Very first iteration stopped somewhere in the 70's from 24. Had extremely hard first levels but extremely easy high 30's/40+. They changed it to offer clearer start/stop points and hopefully a lot of cosmetic rewards. There could also be issues with endless scaling with numbers very quickly going to insane levels that they game might not be able to handle, but just speculation. Almost certain no endless mode but we do not know high the level brackets go for the checkpoints.

[deenman]

I don't see what looks so amazing about Torghast. I plan to do nothing but play enough to unlock my Legendary items and that's it. Maybe Torghast is more fun than it looks. I'll find it out.

people rly love roguelike games,and not everything in wow is ment yo be liked by everyone,i dont do m+ past the weekly chest but plenty others like to push,i dont enjoy pet battles but for some reason its actualy fairly popular,i dont do arenas anymore,but many people play wow just for that

[Sunslayer]

people rly love roguelike games,and not everything in wow is ment yo be liked by everyone,i dont do m+ past the weekly chest but plenty others like to push,i dont enjoy pet battles but for some reason its actualy fairly popular,i dont do arenas anymore,but many people play wow just for that

You failed to state what looks fun and challenging about Torghast? The videos I see are of people running around one-shotting everything because your abilities do absurd damage. What's fun about that? I watched people do 99 floors and none of it was a "challenge". Your shield throw as Prot Paladin does a million damage and kills everything. This is fun? Sounds like garbage content.

[deenman]

You failed to state what looks fun and challenging about Torghast? The videos I see are of people running around one-shotting everything because your abilities do absurd damage. What's fun about that? I watched people do 99 floors and none of it was a "challenge". Your shield throw as Prot Paladin does a million damage and kills everything. This is fun? Sounds like garbage content.

its going to be tuned ofc,preach also said that wile watching someone play it doesnt look very fun,its completly different when playing it yourself,thats the case with many kinds of games,and again,not everyone likes roguelike stuff,personaly i dont either but i have only heard praise for it,something that in wow is EXTREMLY unheard of

[goldentforce]

its going to be tuned ofc,preach also said that wile watching someone play it doesnt look very fun,its completly different when playing it yourself,thats the case with many kinds of games,and again,not everyone likes roguelike stuff,personaly i dont either but i have only heard praise for it,something that in wow is EXTREMLY unheard of

Just want to point out when torghast comes out, do not treat it as a clean finished product, its would like an open access rogue-like. The appeal right now is having your class evolve in wacky ways, with elements similar to the stat amps of corruption. If your fan of fast and goofy gameplay, torghast hits that mark. It just lacks some other elements rogue-likes have like kiss/curse effects, variety of events/challenges for powers/etc, hard end game boss/secret bosses,etc.) Rogue likes have grown a lot and use many types of content to amplify the experience in addition to the major gameplay the game has. If you find the core of torghast fun once its live hopefully in patches more content and more variety can be added to keep up the replayability and keep it a feature in the game. Obviously just like the genre, some people will not find torghast fun and thats okay. On the note of view-ability, preach has a point but many of the other rogue-likes have things that increase viewer interaction such as chance/gamble minigames/gameplay (darkest dungeon hit rates, Sts ? events have a lot of this) or having unique and staple bosses. There is definite viewer improvements that also just boost general interaction past just killing mobs, which is basically all of torghast outside of traps/ chest/lever minigames.

[deenman]

Just want to point out when torghast comes out, do not treat it as a clean finished product, its would like an open access rogue-like. The appeal right now is having your class evolve in wacky ways, with elements similar to the stat amps of corruption. If your fan of fast and goofy gameplay, torghast hits that mark. It just lacks some other elements rogue-likes have like kiss/curse effects, variety of events/challenges for powers/etc, hard end game boss/secret bosses,etc.) Rogue likes have grown a lot and use many types of content to amplify the experience in addition to the major gameplay the game has. If you find the core of torghast fun once its live hopefully in patches more content and more variety can be added to keep up the replayability and keep it a feature in the game. Obviously just like the genre, some people will not find torghast fun and thats okay. On the note of view-ability, preach has a point but many of the other rogue-likes have things that increase viewer interaction such as chance/gamble minigames/gameplay (darkest dungeon hit rates, Sts ? events have a lot of this) or having unique and staple bosses. There is definite viewer improvements that also just boost general interaction past just killing mobs, which is basically all of torghast outside of traps/ chest/lever minigames.

oh yeah agree,the thing is they can go so many places with torghast,it can even become something that players spend most of their playtime doing,we have seen this work amazingly well in hearthstone with battlegrounds...no rewards no insentives to play,yet its extremly popular,arena for example that offers by far the best rewards is the least popular feature

[Cosmic Janitor]

Would be a shame if they miss the mark and only make it islands again. I hope they find a way to properly integrate an endless mode.. that one was by far the most exciting one to me and the hints at it in early alpha. Streamlining it too much would be a crying shame, as they had something genuinely good on their hands there.

[FelPlague]

I also thought there was an endless mode.

there was going to be, until they realized that would be horrible, so now its 18 floors, which even then is rather long, and can get some pretty good builds going.
if its endless you just start 1 shotting everything and it becomes "how fast can you run"
during alpha when there was 72 floors on heroic, literally only the first 2 floors were difficult, after that it was just "running simulator" as you would 1 shot everything.

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You failed to state what looks fun and challenging about Torghast? The videos I see are of people running around one-shotting everything because your abilities do absurd damage. What's fun about that? I watched people do 99 floors and none of it was a "challenge". Your shield throw as Prot Paladin does a million damage and kills everything. This is fun? Sounds like garbage content.

its not meant to be challenging really, unless you start on higher floors.
and your seeing people 1 shot everything, because your watching the end of the run
and no, you have never been able to do 99 floors, you are a bald faced liar.

- - - Updated - - -

its going to be tuned ofc,preach also said that wile watching someone play it doesnt look very fun,its completly different when playing it yourself,thats the case with many kinds of games,and again,not everyone likes roguelike stuff,personaly i dont either but i have only heard praise for it,something that in wow is EXTREMLY unheard of

^^^^ This, being super overpowered is far more fun to play, then to watch, and making those constant descisions and exploring, again far more fun to play then to watch.

[Sunslayer]

there was going to be, until they realized that would be horrible, so now its 18 floors, which even then is rather long, and can get some pretty good builds going.
if its endless you just start 1 shotting everything and it becomes "how fast can you run"
during alpha when there was 72 floors on heroic, literally only the first 2 floors were difficult, after that it was just "running simulator" as you would 1 shot everything.

- - - Updated - - -



its not meant to be challenging really, unless you start on higher floors.
and your seeing people 1 shot everything, because your watching the end of the run
and no, you have never been able to do 99 floors, you are a bald faced liar.

- - - Updated - - -



^^^^ This, being super overpowered is far more fun to play, then to watch, and making those constant descisions and exploring, again far more fun to play then to watch.

There is a Asmongold vid doing 99 floors.

[FelPlague]

There is a Asmongold vid doing 99 floors.

Not possible.

[Osmeric]

I'm not confident the people who made warfronts and islands know how to make something that's fun.

[Amerissis]

This is a massive problem because the nature and fun of rogue-likes involves failure and bad runs.

I don’t find failure and bad runs fun. I’m fine with it being easy and to always succeed. If I want to fail at something, I’ll log off and go do some real life.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

I don’t find failure and bad runs fun. I’m fine with it being easy and to always succeed. If I want to fail at something, I’ll log off and go do some real life.

A winners attitude.
So you'd rather play something utterly pointless and boring which is no challenge at all and where it simply does not matter what you do and how you play, instead of having the possibility of random but incredibly fun drops which have the potential you get absolutely crazy and fun gameplay on higher floors? It's not like torghast was incredibly hard before...it just was harder when you were incredibly unlucky.
Content where you can't fail will always suck. Just like islands. Or warfronts. Or scenarios.