1. #1

    Time walking Rings

    Time walking rings have Primary stats on them, My question is how are they not automatically better than higher ilvl rings that dont have primary stats on them?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by WrongCracker View Post
    Time walking rings have Primary stats on them, My question is how are they not automatically better than higher ilvl rings that dont have primary stats on them?
    Item level disparity is too big, & for a lot of specs, secondaries are more important than primaries anyway. As Arms right now, 1 haste is worth about the same as 3 strength, if I remember right.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Item level disparity is too big, & for a lot of specs, secondaries are more important than primaries anyway. As Arms right now, 1 haste is worth about the same as 3 strength, if I remember right.
    Thanks for your reply! That seems broken to me lol like bad game design where your primary stat is secondary to your secondary stats. I think i remember Ion saying something about how he didnt want people needing to have to sim there gear for which one was better. You get a higher ilvl ring its gonna be better, but yet for resto shaman my pawn tells me that the ilvl 445 M+ Waycrest ring is better than ANY Nya Rings, So im stuck farming higher level Waycrests to get my bis = Feelsbadman.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by WrongCracker View Post
    Thanks for your reply! That seems broken to me lol like bad game design where your primary stat is secondary to your secondary stats. I think i remember Ion saying something about how he didnt want people needing to have to sim there gear for which one was better. You get a higher ilvl ring its gonna be better, but yet for resto shaman my pawn tells me that the ilvl 445 M+ Waycrest ring is better than ANY Nya Rings, So im stuck farming higher level Waycrests to get my bis = Feelsbadman.
    It's a matter of magnitude. If you have 20000 strength and 2000 haste then you have 1/10 the haste as compared to strength. You just get strength from ilvl, but you have to get haste on pieces. I agree it's stupid that "primary stat" is not actually your primary gearing choice, but mathematically it makes sence. Unless you want to start seeing 700 haste on peices

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by WrongCracker View Post
    Thanks for your reply! That seems broken to me lol like bad game design where your primary stat is secondary to your secondary stats. I think i remember Ion saying something about how he didnt want people needing to have to sim there gear for which one was better. You get a higher ilvl ring its gonna be better, but yet for resto shaman my pawn tells me that the ilvl 445 M+ Waycrest ring is better than ANY Nya Rings, So im stuck farming higher level Waycrests to get my bis = Feelsbadman.
    I just ran a sim out of interest. A 430 ring from Mechagon 0 sims 3.3k DPS higher for me than the 485 ring from Mythic Nzoth. 55 item levels? Giga downgrade The set bonus is kinda crazy, though.


  6. #6
    Ion said main stats should be better so item level would matter. This was in both pre Legion and pre BfA.

    I guess he forgot to write "not" after as a great joke. Secondaries are just way too good as it is now and have been for a long time.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-08-14 at 02:53 AM.
    - I will never be the Legion's pawn. And this tower will not be its den!

    Best Mage ever lived!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Ion said main stats should be better so item level would matter. This was in both pre Legion and pre BfA.

    I guess he forgot to write "not as a great joke. Secondaries are just way too good as it is now and have been for a long time.
    It's even worse in BfA. I can't be bothered to run another sim, but I'm pretty sure I could find Azerite from a M+0 that's competitive with Mythic Raid shoulders that don't have the right trait on them, which is absolutely ridiculous.

    Edit: I ended up running a sim anyway. A 430 drop from M+0 with my best trait beats out my 490 Carapace shoulders with my BiS trait not selected (but everything else chosen right). The trait I picked instead is actually a pretty decent trait overall, but the BiS is just so good.



    It's actually horrifying how bad they get this sometimes. It's even worse than you consider this is something they've actively being trying to fix for years, & this is somehow the best they can manage Obviously it makes no difference to experienced players, but so many players out there are shooting themselves in the foot with absolutely no idea at all, all becuase Blizzard can't balance for toffee.
    Last edited by Toybox; 2020-08-14 at 03:04 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    It's even worse in BfA. I can't be bothered to run another sim, but I'm pretty sure I could find Azerite from a M+0 that's competitive with Mythic Raid shoulders that don't have the right trait on them, which is absolutely ridiculous.
    Yeah, its the worst ever in BfA.
    - I will never be the Legion's pawn. And this tower will not be its den!

    Best Mage ever lived!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    I just ran a sim out of interest. A 430 ring from Mechagon 0 sims 3.3k DPS higher for me than the 485 ring from Mythic Nzoth. 55 item levels? Giga downgrade The set bonus is kinda crazy, though.

    What class and what kind of sim if I may ask?

    Single? Cleave?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    It's even worse in BfA. I can't be bothered to run another sim, but I'm pretty sure I could find Azerite from a M+0 that's competitive with Mythic Raid shoulders that don't have the right trait on them, which is absolutely ridiculous.

    Edit: I ended up running a sim anyway. A 430 drop from M+0 with my best trait beats out my 490 Carapace shoulders with my BiS trait not selected (but everything else chosen right). The trait I picked instead is actually a pretty decent trait overall, but the BiS is just so good.



    It's actually horrifying how bad they get this sometimes. It's even worse than you consider this is something they've actively being trying to fix for years, & this is somehow the best they can manage Obviously it makes no difference to experienced players, but so many players out there are shooting themselves in the foot with absolutely no idea at all, all becuase Blizzard can't balance for toffee.
    and then you have people ON THIS FORUM,who claim to leave groups if some players have to low hp for their ''standards'' LOL

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    What class and what kind of sim if I may ask?

    Single? Cleave?
    Patchwork/1 boss/5 minutes - the usual.

    Arms Warrior.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    It's even worse in BfA. I can't be bothered to run another sim, but I'm pretty sure I could find Azerite from a M+0 that's competitive with Mythic Raid shoulders that don't have the right trait on them, which is absolutely ridiculous.

    Edit: I ended up running a sim anyway. A 430 drop from M+0 with my best trait beats out my 490 Carapace shoulders with my BiS trait not selected (but everything else chosen right). The trait I picked instead is actually a pretty decent trait overall, but the BiS is just so good.

    It's actually horrifying how bad they get this sometimes. It's even worse than you consider this is something they've actively being trying to fix for years, & this is somehow the best they can manage Obviously it makes no difference to experienced players, but so many players out there are shooting themselves in the foot with absolutely no idea at all, all becuase Blizzard can't balance for toffee.
    The problem is the more complexity you have in the game the more chances to get in this exact position.
    Starting from classic, into TBC and very little into WotLK the things were simpler and all you had was the item itself that would increase you damage potential but the damage done was under your control (especially in classic and tbc). When I say damage was under your control, it means you would use whatever spec/rotation and execute it to your best of your abilities even without a sim, you would get a rough ideea of how good an item is just by having a quick glance.

    Now things are more like diablo 3, where a class potential is exploited only by having specific sets of items/traits/corruptions/trinkets.

    Given diablo 3 has a reduced number of classes (compared to WoW), you can only produce more diversity by adding certain item combinations that will enable certain spells/specs combinations to work.

    I don't like this type of diversity, WoW is not a hack and slash, and is not suffering from class/spec diversity as to require these types of systems.

  13. #13
    Primary stats are wank now.

    Critical Strike 17.90
    Weapon DPS 15.93
    Haste 13.22
    Mastery 12.05
    Versatility 11.75
    Agility 5.12

  14. #14
    The further we are into an expansion, the better the secondary stats are. It's pretty much always been like that.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    The further we are into an expansion, the better the secondary stats are. It's pretty much always been like that.
    Everybody knows that. But should it be like that?

    Nope, it's stupid.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Ion said main stats should be better so item level would matter. This was in both pre Legion and pre BfA.

    I guess he forgot to write "not" after as a great joke. Secondaries are just way too good as it is now and have been for a long time.
    I'm glad someone else remembered what he said because after i posted that i thought maybe i have made it up because of how far things have gone in the other direction...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by WrongCracker View Post
    Time walking rings have Primary stats on them, My question is how are they not automatically better than higher ilvl rings that dont have primary stats on them?
    Because secondary stats multiply the damage that the primary stat gives. If you only had primary stats then the damage increase would be 1-to-1 linear.
    And furthermore secondary stats also influence proc rates on gear, azerite, corruptions and talents. BM hunters are a prime example where haste and crit boost the damage to absurd heights.
    A rule of thumb to see if a spec scales poorly is if its best secondary is versatility.

    This is not new, only much more prominent in BFA. But secondary stats always beat primary stats the higher the gear budget gets.
    The only way to not have this issue is to completely remove secondary stats.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    Everybody knows that. But should it be like that?

    Nope, it's stupid.
    The only solution would be to remove secondaries as they are multiplicative, whereas primary stats are additive.
    The higher amount of primary stats you have - as ilv goes up- the better the multiplicative power of secondary gets.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Patchwork/1 boss/5 minutes - the usual.

    Arms Warrior.
    Ahh makes sense. Though the 485 ring is a curious outliner. I know it's always bis for single target with melee as stars and gushing do more dmg on it due to its higher ilv. Even if you class hates vers.

  19. #19
    Do take into account stat budget. A secondary stat 415 ilvl ring has more overall stats than a primary/secondary stat 415 ilvl ring.

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