So arthas was never holding back, the scourge was just weak?

[Candy Cough]

I can't really understand the decision to bring back so many bosses from the wotlk raid. The general consensus about the lich king seems that we need one so the scourge doesen't run rampart and kill everything and that we only stood a chance back in Wotlk because Arthas was holding back but this makes no sense to me now. If so many bosses have returned I think its safe to assume that the scourge basically is back at the same powerlevel as they were in Wotlk, and now that there is no lich king the scourge is actually running rampart and killing everything. What happened to the whole "We only have enough men for one final assault" that anduin said right before siege of orgrimmar 2.0? Surely we lost even more troops to Nzoth? How do we defeat a full powered scourge then? Magical poof, here is an army.

Kinda undermines and makes the scourge look pathetic. I could have gotten it if we still had our artifact weapons or literally anything else but we just recovered from a world war and a fight with a full powered old god but somehow we can fight a scourge that has been amassing forces since wotlk and has resurrected many of its commanders.

meh they even forgot that Kel'thuzad still had his phylactery but somehow ended up in the shadowlands

[catalystical]

Erm, 12 years ago the Plague caused so much chaos and there's a sizable chunk of players who still remember that this day and/or tried it on the PTR and are not looking forward to it hitting the live servers.

I wouldn't exactly call the Scourge "weak".

[Dellis0991]

Blizz lore is broken at this point.

[Raugnaut]

Probs just Azerite. Keep in mind that as an explosive/incendiary/power source, Azerite has no other equal in the World of Warcraft - And we have metric buttloads of it. In the past, the issue with the Scourge wasn't so much the elites, but the unending wave of fodder that made your own fodder join theirs. Now both the Horde and Alliance can roast the fodder all day long, the only issue are the Scourge champions - But both the Horde and Alliance have their own champions to counter them.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

The scourge is weak now because the players have to win. Same reason Sargeras was hiding in a cloud watching the show instead of just destroying the planet right away.

Don't take in-game lore seriously. The players have to win. WoW lore at this point is no different than Dragon Ball. They keep coming up with seemingly unbeatable villains that end up causing little to no dmg and are eventually defeated.

And Arthas was holding back because he wasn't attacking anyone. He was staying in Icecrown. When he did attack in Warcraft 3, and that was a simple dk instead of the Lich King, he destroyed two kingdoms.

[vizzle]

Erm, 12 years ago the Plague caused so much chaos and there's a sizable chunk of players who still remember that this day and/or tried it on the PTR and are not looking forward to it hitting the live servers.

I wouldn't exactly call the Scourge "weak".

...he's talking about lore, and you're talking about servers.

Seriously.

[MrLachyG]

there is a video of the late great Stan Lee and in it he discusses what his response is every time someone asked him the question "who would win in a fight: X or Y?" and his answer was quite simple: "whoever the writers needed to win! If you have a fight between Wolverine and the Hulk and Wolverine needs to win, then he wins. If you have a fight between Kingpin and Captain America and Kingpin needs to win, then he wins."

If you're going to try and bring logic into a video game where, at the end of the day, we have to win then that's never going to work. As someone mentioned above, Sargeras was right there above Azeroth and could've destroyed it at any moment. But the Pantheon stopped him JUST in time. Why? Because we had to win. Same thing for Arthas and the Scourge, both then and now.

[Soon-TM]

there is a video of the late great Stan Lee and in it he discusses what his response is every time someone asked him the question "who would win in a fight: X or Y?" and his answer was quite simple: "whoever the writers needed to win! If you have a fight between Wolverine and the Hulk and Wolverine needs to win, then he wins. If you have a fight between Kingpin and Captain America and Kingpin needs to win, then he wins."

If you're going to try and bring logic into a video game where, at the end of the day, we have to win then that's never going to work. As someone mentioned above, Sargeras was right there above Azeroth and could've destroyed it at any moment. But the Pantheon stopped him JUST in time. Why? Because we had to win. Same thing for Arthas and the Scourge, both then and now.

The thing is, we don't have to win necessarily. Having a villain be a bit smarter/luckier than us would be a fresh breath of air, and it would make a second round against him much more interesting and believable. Imagine if the LK had been destroyed at the end of TFT... GG WotLK, perhaps the most attractive xpac from a story PoV.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Given that the horde and alliance now have the night bourn shiny goats zandalari dark irons and abunch of other new forces standing united and way better weaponry it would make Sense that they would do way better against an unorganized scourge compared to wrath where the horde and alliance wanted to kill each other and had way less allies.

[Dancaris]

The thing is, we don't have to win necessarily. Having a villain be a bit smarter/luckier than us would be a fresh breath of air, and it would make a second round against him much more interesting and believable. Imagine if the LK had been destroyed at the end of TFT... GG WotLK, perhaps the most attractive xpac from a story PoV.

Well, from my perspective - Arthas wins around 300th times, when we wipe on him. And final one we win.

[Adoxe]

Arthas was holding them back from marching across Azeroth and killing everything, his attacks were contained to Northrend. The free Scourge that you see in the pre-patch is not contained to Northrend only but across the entire world, and they continue to attack off-screen while we are in the Shadowlands, hence the need for Anduin's replacement and so many leaders staying behind. Regarding your second point about Kel'thuzad, they didn't forget about the phylactery, he's not in the Shadowlands cos he's dead, he's in Shadowlands cos he wants to be. Kel'thuzad has the power to travel into it whenever he wants, he retreated there willingly.

[Nathreim]

Just wait until 3 days into the zombie invasions and tell us if you think the Scourge is weak. Last time you couldn't see the floor of SW or Org because all the player skeletons.

Its likely that will not see the end of the battle with the Scourge, that the war continues while we are in the shadowlands. That or we pull a mcguffin and calm the Scourge somehow.

Also Kel'thuzad probably just traveled to the Shadowlands himself he didn't end up there because we killed him in wrath. Many minions of the Scourge could easily travel to the Shadowlands Death Knights do it just to get a horse. Its not a particularly difficult feat the knowledge is just obscure.

[Goldielocks]

Kinda undermines and makes the scourge look pathetic.

It may look like this now, but the very nature of this upcoming expansion aims to do the opposite. In WC3, the Scourge was never a force of awesome power. It was a "weakener." It made worlds easier for the Legion to conquer. An army created by Nathrezim necromancy. It had no grand implications, nor was the Lich King any kind of being that was greater than the Legion itself. In the end, Arthas and his forces were dangerous because regardless of "cosmic status" he was still powerful in relation to the ordinary people of Azeroth and had to be dealt with.

Blizzard is retroactively making the Scourge, and the origins of the Lich King mean more than it used to, at least in the lore. I personally don't think this works at all. Playing WC3 and this back to back would make little to no sense, but it is what it is.

[darkoms]

That Arthas was holding back the Scourge because of his humanity is complete nonsense. This was shown back in Votlk. Uther said that Arthas was holding back the undead because there was still something good about him, but he was not aware of the actual situation. Arthas held back the Scourge because he wanted to lure the heroes to him. This is another dumb myth because people only notice what they want to notice.
As for your question, yes. Chronicle 3 clearly states that Arthas knew he could not take Azeroth by force. He knew that the Alliance and the Horde could win the war, and so he wanted heroes. Even so, his plan was on the verge of failure twice:
1) After defeating Kel'Thuzad - then Arthas was saved by the intervention of Malygos
2) At the Gate of Wrath, where he himself could have died - then he was saved by the intervention of the Forsaken.
All of this is in Chronicle 3. The Scourge is overrated.

[owbu]

That's what happens when you play rush tactics.

If your first attack fails, when you come back you are fighting space ships and later troops with a bunch of stinking zombies.

Would have been kinda said if all of our experience and teching wouldn't have helped us get stronger over the last decade of ending world ending threats.

[Super Dickmann]

Disregarding some hero characters, the Scourge should if anything be more of a threat given that per the new book and even the pre-patch everyone continually mentions how weak the factions have gotten. The Horde mustering forty people was apparently difficult.

[uikolertekopoku]

@Indres answearing your question

( sorry for others who allready see my comments in other thread)

Here a quotes and descriptions of Arthas Powers found in the Ingame books in World od Warcraft Classic

Arthas placed the unimaginably powerful helm on his head and became the new Lich King. Ner'zhul and Arthas' spirits fused into a single mighty being, just as Ner'zhul had always planned. Illidan and his troops were forced to flee back to Outland in disgrace, while Arthas became one of the most powerful entities the world had ever known.“


Ner'zhul's spirit was placed within a specially crafted block of diamond-hard ice gathered from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether. Encased within the frozen cask, Ner'zhul felt his consciousness expand ten thousand-fold. Warped by the demon's chaotic powers, Ner'zhul became a spectral being of unfathomable power]



The truth is all this Shit happend because of WoW Succes and milking the Cash Cow.

Do somebody really think that we could even stand a chance even after Burning Crusade???

That we march in Icecrown raid icecrown itself and than fuck Arthas???? Haha

When you see their own descriptions ingame ....how we really would be able to raid his domain and kill such a powerful being... not at this point .is ridiculous and laughable.

Answear to your creatin:

They create, retcon, spand, twist WoW in the way we have content and they can earn money.

This is the only one truth.

Source ingame books
https://wow.gamepedia.com/History_of_Warcraft[/QUOTE]

[darkoms]

@Indres answearing your question

( sorry for others who allready see my comments in other thread)

Here a quotes and descriptions of Arthas Powers found in the Ingame books in World od Warcraft Classic

Arthas placed the unimaginably powerful helm on his head and became the new Lich King. Ner'zhul and Arthas' spirits fused into a single mighty being, just as Ner'zhul had always planned. Illidan and his troops were forced to flee back to Outland in disgrace, while Arthas became one of the most powerful entities the world had ever known.“


Ner'zhul's spirit was placed within a specially crafted block of diamond-hard ice gathered from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether. Encased within the frozen cask, Ner'zhul felt his consciousness expand ten thousand-fold. Warped by the demon's chaotic powers, Ner'zhul became a spectral being of unfathomable power]



The truth is all this Shit happend because of WoW Succes and milking the Cash Cow.

Do somebody really think that we could even stand a chance even after Burning Crusade???

That we march in Icecrown raid icecrown itself and than fuck Arthas???? Haha

When you see their own descriptions ingame ....how we really would be able to raid his domain and kill such a powerful being... not at this point .is ridiculous and laughable.

Answear to your creatin:

They create, retcon, spand, twist WoW in the way we have content and they can earn money.

This is the only one truth.

Source ingame books
https://wow.gamepedia.com/History_of_Warcraft

[/QUOTE]

Arthas weaker than Lei Shen

[DemonHunter18]

Blizz lore is broken at this point.

pretty much this.

don't take WoW's lore too seriously.

it's filled with more holes than Swiss Cheese.

[Varodoc]

Just because Anduin had only enough men for one assault doesn't mean anything, since Orgrimmar is one of the most impregnable castles on Azeroth. Historically such castles could be held out for a long time by a skeleton garrison, so of course even a large army wouldn't be able to afford multiple sieges. Anduin's army is still large, as evidenced by the fact that the Alliance was tightening its grip on the land and managed to win both the Arathi and Darkshore warfronts.