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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Reivur View Post
    My criticism of 'push weeks' is that its just another example of people using a tool incorrectly. While r.io is great for finding groups and competing with peers and sure the score is 'fun', the score is about as truthful and accurate as ilvl. The weeks are unequal by the very acknowledgment that push weeks exist and as such it jumbles and distorts the value behind the scores, which makes them shitty to use as metrics. Which makes it about as crude as ilvl in "Big number is big". It also distorts the value of some players too if they don't do an 'all around the world' scoring for all the keys and their average gets tanked artificially because oh no they didn't do Freehold x yet because they were trying to farm rings from Mechagone, oh well, their number is smaller than this other guy's.
    Problem with push weeks is down to affixes. There are certain affixes that are blatantly anti-fun and make the whole experience terrible. There's also the issue with how Tyrannical scales with bosses. The blanket infinite scaling is insane. I.E. the LoS strat on first boss of Freehold is dumb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adoxe View Post
    If anyone still believes Sylvanas is responsible, you've not been paying attention.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Reivur View Post
    1.
    Agreed. There's a reason I mentioned Parsers and Gearscore; any tool used to survey people's information to get an idea of their performance or lack thereof is subject to abuse. I'll just have to agree to disagree about the community not becoming a potential hellscape though. Throughout the years each time Blizzard has appeased everyone with quality of life be it information or game mechanics such as sharding for infrastructure, misinformation or abuse of the intent has followed. To claim otherwise makes me want to know what safe haven of a server you've found so I can chill there and relax.

    Also RIO as a score completely ignores the context of how 'undesired' classes got their score. Often these specs aren't even necessarily incapable of competing so much as you needing to build around them which ends up being unlikely vs. just stacking the meta classes. And once again that's something subject to knowing why the numbers read a way rather than the number telling you why its that way.

    2.
    Yeah ilvl is trash. Good intent though in terms of guiding people on where to seek power/content at certain stages of their character's development. But also misused drastically by the community on the regular. I'm sure you can log on and find at least five groups or more misusing it by saying you need to be higher ilvl than the drops the content gives to be able to join. Its a common practice.

    3.
    I have no problems with parsers. But I also acknowledge most people can't read them. Like r.io or any tool, its only as useful as the person capable of using the tool. And a lot of people read it hilariously wrong. If BFA can be thanked for anything its that a lot of people are so obsessed with how unfair procs feel at the moment that they're reading parsers closer and learning them better when they try to find out what their non-proc damage is to compare to their peers. So that's a nice accident I guess.

    4.
    My criticism of 'push weeks' is that its just another example of people using a tool incorrectly. While r.io is great for finding groups and competing with peers and sure the score is 'fun', the score is about as truthful and accurate as ilvl. The weeks are unequal by the very acknowledgment that push weeks exist and as such it jumbles and distorts the value behind the scores, which makes them shitty to use as metrics. Which makes it about as crude as ilvl in "Big number is big". It also distorts the value of some players too if they don't do an 'all around the world' scoring for all the keys and their average gets tanked artificially because oh no they didn't do Freehold x yet because they were trying to farm rings from Mechagone, oh well, their number is smaller than this other guy's.
    By and large i agree with everything you say.

    I have one thing to add though. The whole undesired dps specs thing(and to a lesser extent tanks/healers). Its a tuning issue right. I mean. The issue would be there with or without RIO. Its not like it takes RIO to see that this guy is a paladin or shadow priest.

    Personally i always invite high RIO paladins and shadow priests. You know they had to fight a little bit harder to get the RIO score they do - and they therefore almost always perform very well for their score.

    Push weeks is a problem and so is boosting. I'm not sure how those problems can be fixed but it also doesnt really correlate to RIO in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilford View Post
    Problem with push weeks is down to affixes. There are certain affixes that are blatantly anti-fun and make the whole experience terrible. There's also the issue with how Tyrannical scales with bosses. The blanket infinite scaling is insane. I.E. the LoS strat on first boss of Freehold is dumb.
    Actually - so much this.

    Push weeks is a lesser problem. The real problem is dead weeks.

    Just remove Tyrannical and Fortified imo. That would be a great start in getting rid of push/dead weeks.

    But thats another discussion

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    Its not about Power. Its about Choice.
    As GroupLeader, you have the Choice to pick the players you want to play with. Depending on various factors.
    As GroupMember, you have the Choice to pick the players you want to play with. Depending on various factors.

    But, to go into your power play:
    The Keyholder cannot "Decide" for any player to apply to his group. So, the first person who has any kind of "Power", is the person to apply to a group, if no one applies to your group, for whatever reasons, you hold no Power.

    The same analogy you use: "If you dont Decide to apply for a group you dont do a key" is the same: "If you dont Decide to accept people into your group, you dont do a key".

    There are (almost) always other Groups in the Tool I can Queue up. If I dont like a particular Group, or a Particular group declines me, I can choose a different one.
    The same goes for GroupLeaders, if they dont like Particular Applicants, or a Particular player decides not to apply, he can always choose a different one.


    This is an Interesting question, per default a player should not be forced to play with anyone.

    But on the other hand, a player should be encouraged to have reasonable Expactations for his group mates.

    E.g.:
    I dont see it as a problem if a 480 Geared Player expects his groupmates to be at the same Level.
    But I think its bad habit, and unreasonable if someone with 430 expects his groupmates to be 480.

    Sadly, I dont have any ideas how one could combat this.



    To be Fair, while I dont look for RaidProgress in 5man Content so I dunno how many I had who failed there, i can see that not every Mythic Raider is up to Par, especialy many of those who PuG around. Thats why I stay clear of raids where someone states: "X/12 mythic Raidlead". Those in almost all of my Experiences suck.



    Sadly the first part is not true at this point. While having a High Ilvl enables you the possibility to outdamage many mechanics. There are sadly more than enough players who just dont tap into that possibility.
    Apart from that, you are right. A Player who has just a little bit skill in handling his Character and knows how to handle the basic mechanics like dont stand in the fire, will probably not have much issues in an Average difficulty.


    Sorry, I thought it was Obvious that it was Sarcasm. Because of the guy who claimed the only one with a Choice is the Keyholder.

    I mean, if you want real Power, play a tank/heal, get invited to a run, start run, and then you have real Power over the key.

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    Dunno about that, but I usually run Mondays, and all my runs are recorded since at least last season.
    Another one of those - If I don't sign up he can't do a key arguments....

    Not doing a key, is not an outcome to look at. The ONLY thing you can do and do a key afterwards is - TO SIGN UP. Everything else results in you not doing keys. There is not a single thing you can do but to SIGN UP for keys if you wanna do them. So the whole requirement of you doing keys is met, REQUIRES you to sign up. Again not signing up results in you not doing keys, therefore the premise of you doing keys is not met.

    Really can't be that difficult to understand this.

    "If no one sign ups the keyholder has no power" - yes and no one does a key. Again the premise is not met. Stop these mental gymnastics. As long as you did a key, it was the keyholders decision for you to be in that group or not.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    See ya later dude. It's already in the game since R.IO uses the Armory's API.

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    How does assigning a numerical value to something that you'd find on the Armory anyway in any way, shape or form equate into "less information"? You're campaigning to turn what is now a one-step process into a two- or three-step process for the smug satisfaction of, what, the elimination of a fucking number? The problem isn't R.IO, it's community perception; removing R.IO does nothing to impact the latter problem (and, if anything, would probably make it worse).
    That...isn't...what I said. I didn't say that assigning a number is less information, I said we should be GIVEN less information. All we need is the information from the armory, assigning the number is where it gets into the territory of defaulting to someone with a 1900 score over someone with a 1880 score when in reality their performance for the same dungeon is likely negligible.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    "Stop these mental gymnastics.
    Says the one who thinks, that if I decide to not Queue up at specific Groups I wont run Keys at all.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    Says the one who thinks, that if I decide to not Queue up at specific Groups I wont run Keys at all.
    What keys do you run if you do not sign up for any?

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by DonChalk View Post
    That...isn't...what I said. I didn't say that assigning a number is less information, I said we should be GIVEN less information. All we need is the information from the armory, assigning the number is where it gets into the territory of defaulting to someone with a 1900 score over someone with a 1880 score when in reality their performance for the same dungeon is likely negligible.
    Any game that's competitive has a ladder and ratings. I find it strange that WoW didn't and still hasn't baked some form of r.io score into the game already. Arena has it. M+ should have it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adoxe View Post
    If anyone still believes Sylvanas is responsible, you've not been paying attention.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by DonChalk View Post
    That...isn't...what I said. I didn't say that assigning a number is less information, I said we should be GIVEN less information. All we need is the information from the armory, assigning the number is where it gets into the territory of defaulting to someone with a 1900 score over someone with a 1880 score when in reality their performance for the same dungeon is likely negligible.
    This will be the third time I'm saying this but "assigning a number" will still happen in the absence of R.IO. As long as the Armory shows you what dungeons you complete, there will be a possibility for something like R.IO to exist. What you want is to change the way players think -- good fucking luck with that, bro. Let's go ahead and casually reverse two fucking decades of toxic player mentalities -- certainly removing R.IO will usher in a Renaissance of positive player attitudes the likes of which we've never seen before. No longer will we be shackled by arbitrary scores -- we will be free to deplete keys to our heart's content and the only tool we can combat bad attitudes will have been vanquished by the moral superiority of people who hate numbers for whatever reason.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    This will be the third time I'm saying this but "assigning a number" will still happen in the absence of R.IO. As long as the Armory shows you what dungeons you complete, there will be a possibility for something like R.IO to exist. What you want is to change the way players think -- good fucking luck with that, bro. Let's go ahead and casually reverse two fucking decades of toxic player mentalities -- certainly removing R.IO will usher in a Renaissance of positive player attitudes the likes of which we've never seen before. No longer will we be shackled by arbitrary scores -- we will be free to deplete keys to our heart's content and the only tool we can combat bad attitudes will have been vanquished by the moral superiority of people who hate numbers for whatever reason.
    This is the thing.
    If RIO decided to not proceed with shadowlands and WoW didnt implement it. Do you really think those toxic people doing a +2 asking for 3k rio woul suddenly just happily agree to invite anyone?

    I mean these are the people we agree are toxic right? The people who miisuse and misunderstand the system in favor of just being carried?
    Its their own choice ofcourse. And because thats the case we can never change it unless those people decide to change the way they behave. Which is unlikely.

    Edit:
    I'm not talking at you here otaXephon i'm just using your argument in case it wasnt clear.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosbubba View Post
    Although i know you are trolling, i just want to comment to watch this thread turn into an absolute shit show. At least try to put SOME effort into your trolling. Your post history says a lot... *popcorn*
    Why would it be trolling?.. We already have a rated arena system, so why shouldn’t we have an in-game rated M+ system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    This is the thing.
    If RIO decided to not proceed with shadowlands and WoW didnt implement it. Do you really think those toxic people doing a +2 asking for 3k rio woul suddenly just happily agree to invite anyone?

    I mean these are the people we agree are toxic right? The people who miisuse and misunderstand the system in favor of just being carried?
    Its their own choice ofcourse. And because thats the case we can never change it unless those people decide to change the way they behave. Which is unlikely.

    Edit:
    I'm not talking at you here otaXephon i'm just using your argument in case it wasnt clear.
    An those people asking for very high io scores for very low keys are an extreme minority. People make it sound like every person in the game are misusing rio but that is just not the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    This will be the third time I'm saying this but "assigning a number" will still happen in the absence of R.IO. As long as the Armory shows you what dungeons you complete, there will be a possibility for something like R.IO to exist. What you want is to change the way players think -- good fucking luck with that, bro. Let's go ahead and casually reverse two fucking decades of toxic player mentalities -- certainly removing R.IO will usher in a Renaissance of positive player attitudes the likes of which we've never seen before. No longer will we be shackled by arbitrary scores -- we will be free to deplete keys to our heart's content and the only tool we can combat bad attitudes will have been vanquished by the moral superiority of people who hate numbers for whatever reason.
    I’m very interested in hearing from the people that want rio gone, what they actually expect would happen if it was gone... do they think people would suddenly be instantly invited to all groups... do they think the ratio between tanks and dps would magically become more balanced...

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilford View Post
    Any game that's competitive has a ladder and ratings. I find it strange that WoW didn't and still hasn't baked some form of r.io score into the game already. Arena has it. M+ should have it.
    I think they’re just not sure how to do it yet. That or its higher hanging fruit.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I think they’re just not sure how to do it yet. That or its higher hanging fruit.
    There was a leaderboard for CModes for the two expansions they existed. Nobody really used them because there was very little point in doing CModes once you got the cosmetic reward but it did exist. I highly doubt there's any technical limitation preventing Blizzard from putting this in. I believe Blizzard has gone on record a few times saying they'd like to implement something like R.IO at some point but that it's low on their list of priorities. (IIRC this was during the transition between S2 and S3 during BfA.) Seeing as R.IO has kind of grown to have its own community I also believe Blizzard is taking that into consideration before coming out with something of their own.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    There was a leaderboard for CModes for the two expansions they existed. Nobody really used them because there was very little point in doing CModes once you got the cosmetic reward but it did exist. I highly doubt there's any technical limitation preventing Blizzard from putting this in. I believe Blizzard has gone on record a few times saying they'd like to implement something like R.IO at some point but that it's low on their list of priorities. (IIRC this was during the transition between S2 and S3 during BfA.) Seeing as R.IO has kind of grown to have its own community I also believe Blizzard is taking that into consideration before coming out with something of their own.
    You can argue there isn't a point in them doing so as well if someone else is doing it for free and likely in a more effective manner then they would.

  14. #274
    I agree there should be an in game version, but not for some of the reasons i see in this thread.

    There needs to be an in game leaderboard so that we can get some rewards for mythic plus.
    For many players +15 is the minimum, it's the level of keys we start at when the season comes out, so how come even cosmetic awards stop at that point.
    I do agree that +15 is fine as a maximum for gear, cause then it's obtainable by most players for the weekly and doesn't scale out of hand, however we need something to distinguish between people who do +15s and +20s with some rewards. Imagine if glad set was earned at 1400, that's pretty much what we have in mythic plus and you would get absolutely nothing better, even if you pushed 3100 rating, it's ridiculous.

    And that is why we need an in game system, cause obviously blizzard can't give out rewards based on the rankings of a 3rd party site.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Built-in Raider.IO is the last thing wow needs.

    WoW has already become less social and friendly. And it will kill any remaining social part and push this game dead.
    Yeah. People complains about the social aspect of the game yet wants tool that would segregate players.

    i suspect some of the players do not see others as players, but merely tools to assist them to their personal goal. "Can you help me to get my +XX for the day? If so, great, if not, don't waste my time."

    Some of the most enjoyable pugs runs I have been in the past with were with people that were "below the community" standard. We wipe several times and took longer than with a more proficient group. But want they lacked in skills they made up with civility. There were no complains, no blames. Just encourage and helpful hints on what to do and what not to do. At the end everyone congratulated each other.

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