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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    But when you're in a position where you're protected from any of those consequences whilst advocating that others have a worse play experience because want the illusion of choice then you're disengenuous in the extreme to avocate forcing them on other players when you don't have any skin in the game yourself.
    I've been wondering this too.
    The reason is simple and the two quotes are interrelated: They're angry with what they want the game to be, or don't have, and the argument for it is simply out of schadenfreude and inconveniencing players they don't like - not truly out of a sense of a positive direction for the game.

    At best, a scorched-earth belief that this bad decision will somehow bring back factory jobs uhhh maybe make siming and gatekeeping less common when it'll never go away (and instead Blizzard should provide players with more knowledge and practice to perform better, and maybe focus on some better talent tuning). At worst, outward contempt for people who want to play at their best.

    "Fine, since I got shit for applying as Frost instead of Fire, I will support breaking both of our toys. You're the only one who cares about it anyway."
    Last edited by Vakir; 2020-08-16 at 09:13 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Just because this is becoming laughable I have to join in. Going to your original post about him saving Britain and then returning to America, there’s something you have to remember.
    They aren’t going to stop being friendly and allies to him. Hell, if he asked to borrow their machine you brought up they would probably say yes. It’s not “oh, you saved us Captain America, but now that you are back in America we don’t like you anymore and we now want you to jump thru hoops to get our help again. Oh, all those times you saved our asses and we laughed and cried together? No, doesn’t matter, here’s the hoops we need you to go thru.”
    Instead, they would keep communications open, probably offer assistance if he asked, and possibly even send operatives to help him if he asked.
    Now, if someone new comes into power and decides they don’t like him then you might have a point, but that’s not happening here.
    And the covenants are still friendly to you they don't just instantly attack you once you switch sides. If he was fighting another world ending threat they may let him borrow it because they to would be under threat but they aren't just going to let him stomp robbers in New York with it. For the most part you dealt with a majority of the problems with the covenant are dealt with(still gotta deal with the jailer and maw). Yes they would keep communications open just like I said. If you wanna use the mech (covenant powers) you gotta start rep-ing us again.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    You don't keep them, but there's also no real justification. New zone, new situation. It is entirely at the whimsy of gameplay, as it should be, but lore is not a valid reasoning. By the time you've left the zone, you've already done more for that group than many in relative millenia.

    Kinda pointless to talk with you though if you're going to default to insulting people and making insinuations about a lack of player skill because people don't want this horseshit system - even though the same people heavily getting on it are on the bleeding edge, too. You've already made your decision, whether it's to be contrarian, to be a corporate toadie, or simply because you want to spite people.
    There's no real justification as to why a ritual might rewrite another one? What's the justification for not just being able put every enchant on a piece of gear and being unstoppable? My Horde character has done more for the Alliance (and vice versa) than the majority of Alliance soldiers and civilians and yet because I pledged myself to one or the other the other faction unsurprisingly doesn't just go out and let me use their zeppelins or tanks.

    I didn't start the insulting of people others did, I just stated my opinion on why they feel like they need instant swaps. The fact that there are tons of people who don't instant swap or cookie cutter and are still able to succeed is proof that its about not having the skill to keep up and needing a helping hand while there is no proof whatsoever that a single skill is going to keep every player without it out of arena or raiding or mythic dungeons.

    Never once did I insult you in our conversations. Its strange that you have started insulting me though did I strike a nerve or something?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    I was actually curious if i could find my char anymore, i was sharing an account with a friend across TBC/Wotlk in highschool and gave it to him beyond that 10-12 years ago or whatever.
    You can see the achiev here: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...lich-king-raid
    To note that i was in a random guild.. don't even remember the name, but as you know, everyone in the raid needs to do their part to get it.

    Also, regarding the restrictions, barring class which you pick at the character creation screen, everything is farmable and switchable. They don't have a 2 week farm period every time you have to switch them. So you need some common sense to see the difference.

    And all i see is that you're asking Blizzard to handhold you to get into groups, placing stops to other players to "lower" them to your level.
    Don't worry though, this covenant locking business won't even matter, because you won;t get invited anyway due to your low experience. First people look at rio then what's your setup is.
    Covenants are going to be an afterthought, 1 specific will be necessary for the mythic activation buffs, so don't expect to get carried just because you were lucky with your choice for the buff activation, rofl.
    I honestly don't give a shit about if you are faking having an achievement or not I was just giving you shit for insulting me.

    And you can switch and farm covenants. Not once did I ever say it needed to be a permanent choice. Just like everything else in wow you have to put the work in for it. You shouldn't be given free healer gear if your main spec is dps, you gotta work and gather those pieces yourself.

    I'm not asking to get into groups for free or to be hand held. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Blizzard giving someone a million gold because they can't farm it is them handholding a person. Someone saying Blizzard shouldn't be giving out millions of gold because it will wreck the economy and devalues the work of people with actual skill who obtained it themselves is not handholding.

  3. #203
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    And the covenants are still friendly to you they don't just instantly attack you once you switch sides. If he was fighting another world ending threat they may let him borrow it because they to would be under threat but they aren't just going to let him stomp robbers in New York with it. For the most part you dealt with a majority of the problems with the covenant are dealt with(still gotta deal with the jailer and maw). Yes they would keep communications open just like I said. If you wanna use the mech (covenant powers) you gotta start rep-ing us again.





    There's no real justification as to why a ritual might rewrite another one? What's the justification for not just being able put every enchant on a piece of gear and being unstoppable? My Horde character has done more for the Alliance (and vice versa) than the majority of Alliance soldiers and civilians and yet because I pledged myself to one or the other the other faction unsurprisingly doesn't just go out and let me use their zeppelins or tanks.

    I didn't start the insulting of people others did, I just stated my opinion on why they feel like they need instant swaps. The fact that there are tons of people who don't instant swap or cookie cutter and are still able to succeed is proof that its about not having the skill to keep up and needing a helping hand while there is no proof whatsoever that a single skill is going to keep every player out of arena or raiding or mythic dungeons.

    Never once did I insult you in our conversations. Its strange that you have started insulting me though did I strike a nerve or something?




    I honestly don't give a shit about if you are faking having an achievement or not I was just giving you shit for insulting me.

    And you can switch and farm covenants. Not once did I ever say it needed to be a permanent choice. Just like everything else in wow you have to put the work in for it. You shouldn't be given free healer gear if your main spec is dps, you gotta work and gather those pieces yourself.

    I'm not asking to get into groups for free or to be hand held. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Blizzard giving someone a million gold because they can't farm it is them handholding a person. Someone saying Blizzard shouldn't be giving out millions of gold because it will wreck the economy and devalues the work of people with actual skill who obtained it themselves is not handholding.
    What are you even on about with switching and farming covenants? You know fully well that the issue is with it taking 1-2 weeks to accomplish the switch back.
    Once you farm the essences or the gear, you can switch ad-nauseum, so don't talk about stuff like this when it's not even close.
    You're either talking about the real issue, or you're just talking bullshit. I think we now know what you're full of.
    This is such a stupid hill for you to die on, get a grip man.

    Me coming from Night Fae doing dailies, to Venthyr raiding at 8 to 11 and then going Kyrian for M+ won't affect your gameplay or your role playing game.
    So we're coming back to this. You do not pay my subscription to tell me how to play the game, nor somebody else's, once you send me the money, we can talk restrictions for me, until then, move along and role-play how much you want in-game for your character.
    Last edited by Rayzen17; 2020-08-16 at 09:33 PM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    You won’t be forced to swap

    You want to keep me from being 100% optimal because you don’t want to be told you aren’t
    It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.

    Friction is in a way the most important aspect in video games, as our sense of satisfaction is directly proportional to the amount of it we overcome via our actions and choices. If you can choose anything at any time, then it's a) not a choice and b) devoid of friction. The Covenant system 100% allows you to change your Covenant at your choosing, just not without friction. Asking for it to have zero friction means it stops being a part of the gameplay - it's now just a piece of the UI, a Facebook game where you click the icon and have been told "Congrats! You did the right thing!" You enter the easiest version of the dungeon your UI presses could piece together for you, and are never asked "What would this be like if I had both strengths AND weaknesses."

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    There's no real justification as to why a ritual might rewrite another one? What's the justification for not just being able put every enchant on a piece of gear and being unstoppable? My Horde character has done more for the Alliance (and vice versa) than the majority of Alliance soldiers and civilians and yet because I pledged myself to one or the other the other faction unsurprisingly doesn't just go out and let me use their zeppelins or tanks.
    ...the Horde and Alliance have a constant, tenuous cycle of aggression and hatred. It's literally the main theme of the game. The Covenants are buddies. But again, even if they weren't - lore trumps gameplay. It just also doesn't work in lore, is the point.

    I didn't start the insulting of people others did, I just stated my opinion on why they feel like they need instant swaps. The fact that there are tons of people who don't instant swap or cookie cutter and are still able to succeed is proof that its about not having the skill to keep up and needing a helping hand while there is no proof whatsoever that a single skill is going to keep every player out of arena or raiding or mythic dungeons.

    Never once did I insult you in our conversations. Its strange that you have started insulting me though did I strike a nerve or something?
    My very big problem is that you're making these insinuations about other players on top of spouting things you're actively wrong about. Yes, you can manage a lot of content without going for the absolute most optimal spec and optimal build. But the reality is that people who play something on the lower end that enjoy playing at their best can still do so. They can still try to pick the best possible combination of talents and gear selection to pull as high as they can, and can still feel accomplished with taking a "lower tier" spec to a good place.

    Covenants don't just have some abilities better than others - you're applying an ability to 2-4 specs when all of them will have different preferences. A good example is Deathborne is just not the same for Fireball or Frostbolt, filler/activating abilities, as it is for Arcane Blast, a core damage spell during burst periods. The chasm of its use is massive, +10% damage or not. It directly contradicts the entire direction of SL being about restoring class over spec. It is just 1 of 52 spells that work in this way.

    Let me put it in fighting game terms. Tier lists do exist - but pros choose to play low tier characters all the time. People win major tournaments with them. Competitive players don't just pick the best character ALL the time, and sometimes it can completely change the dynamic to bring in a dark horse. But people still want to play their best WITH that character. Playing a cookie cutter spec is like playing a high tier character, but Covenant abilities are like forcing you to only use one specific combo on that character and omit 3 others. That's just not going to work the same way against every opponent. Or in this case, every type of content/spec.

    Making this about "well clearly the person just wasn't good enough!" is missing the entire point and, more importantly, ignores the single most important piece of the puzzle: The only people that get harmed by this decision are those individuals. OP's position is outright ridiculous. Fixed covenants won't discourage gatekeeping, it will, if anything, do the opposite.

    So yeah, that's why I'm pretty god damn pissed at the notion. You're in no position to judge others about this if you don't understand the fundamentals of how and why people min-max. It's not just about tryharding. For some, that is what makes it fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.
    Raids have been consistently great, though, stupid horseshit like Corruptions aside. There's been missteps like Tomb of Soakgeras, but the reality is that raids are one of the things WoW consistently gets right.

    Meanwhile, the feedback in Castle Nathria is that it looks like they reverse-engineered shit to try and cater to certain Covenants always having something to do, resulting in boring 30 second intermissions in the Stone Generals fight. There's a permanent bleed so that Kyrians can clear it, and you need to eat a long CC to clear it otherwise, which means Necrolords can use their immunity with Fleshcraft to avoid the stun but still get rid of it.

    Except it means a boring fucking phase all around. They made a boss with a priority on filling in this weird-ass system rather than just making a boss and having classes with distinct identities that already existed filling in around it. But you can't design these around being required either, because a fight that needs a 20-50% health shield means death for those who don't have it.

    So the end result is blandness that feels contrived.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2020-08-16 at 09:41 PM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    For a choice to be meaningful it has to be one that the player is invested into. You know as well as I do that Covenants for high end players are going to boil down to either A) Which abilities let you cheese mechanics and B)Whichever one has the most throughput for a given situation. For some players it's already going to be made for them. That's not a choice at all, it's the outcome of a mathematical equation.

    What you're really advocating for are consequences, not choices. There's a difference. You want there to be consequences for choosing a certain Covenant. Which is fine in a vacuum. But when you're in a position where you're protected from any of those consequences whilst advocating that others have a worse play experience because want the illusion of choice then you're disengenuous in the extreme to avocate forcing them on other players when you don't have any skin in the game yourself.



    I've been wondering this too. Raid logging seems to have become the cardinal sin and even suggesting it is a crime so heinous that you should be hung, drawn and quatered on the spot.

    It's really not - Raid loggers are coming back a couple of times a week to play regardless. They don't need to be forced into other content in an attempt to keep them invested.
    I honestly think it is a coping mechanism...

    I wouldn't say players envy mythic players but there seems to be almost a extreme hatred towards though who can accomplish and complete harder content in a short time period vs those who linger and struggle even with the simplest content.

    Rather then be content with what they have they seem to almost get a malicious joy out of ruining the enjoyment of others by cheering on anything that inconveniences them.

    It reminds me of crabs in a bucket pulling each other down.

  7. #207
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.

    Friction is in a way the most important aspect in video games, as our sense of satisfaction is directly proportional to the amount of it we overcome via our actions and choices. If you can choose anything at any time, then it's a) not a choice and b) devoid of friction. The Covenant system 100% allows you to change your Covenant at your choosing, just not without friction. Asking for it to have zero friction means it stops being a part of the gameplay - it's now just a piece of the UI, a Facebook game where you click the icon and have been told "Congrats! You did the right thing!" You enter the easiest version of the dungeon your UI presses could piece together for you, and are never asked "What would this be like if I had both strengths AND weaknesses."
    As opposed to making one choice at level cap and then you now have 100% the same gameplay due to your chosen covenant every time you do raids, m+, dailies, arenas, bg's... old raids for crying out loud?
    Or you can chose freely and use whatever covenant you like for whatever covenant you feel you wanna use at the time?
    To experiment? To try the meta? To have some fun in the game without being restricted?

    This part "it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter" confirms that you have no idea what you're talking about, just because Icy Veins recommends something, it doesn't mean it's 100% true in all the situations they list there.
    And some things they list aren't even accurate for your character. If you ever simmed you'd know that the stats that you use, can change priorities for what's your best talents. And the most important thing, to freely experiment with your options and see which is the best fit for your enjoyment. Locking covenants prevents you from experimenting in any meaningful way.

    So no, not everything is cut and dry, just because there's a site out there that gives you general advice, it's not the end all be all holy scripture.

    Finally, if you lock covenants then what? You stay like that, you play like that for everything the game offers, is this fun?
    Let's lock specs next if it's fun being locked, no?
    Last edited by Rayzen17; 2020-08-16 at 09:55 PM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    I mean... you defeat your own argument in your post...

    It was faster and you mostly spent your time grinding rep in dungeons. Raid loggers didn't move into your territory you dragged them kicking and screaming into yours.
    Please tell me when was grinding reps in dungeons a thing. Well I mean of course in BC dungeons gave the rep. Chainqueing to dungeons wasn't really a thing before mop. I remember doing it for whatever points to buy heirlooms. Even if you check a rep guide, any guide from cata, wrath the most efficient rep grind was in outdoors. Remember when before 3.3 you had to fish your daily group from trade chat because there was no group finder? And in Cata, doing the starter reps in dungeons was just a pain in the ass? Etcetc.
    Yes, maybe raidloggers were dragged and they screamed - not sure if it was "my territory", as if I am arguing agaisnt anyone - , but it was a thing nontheless. It was at least faster for them.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.

    Friction is in a way the most important aspect in video games, as our sense of satisfaction is directly proportional to the amount of it we overcome via our actions and choices. If you can choose anything at any time, then it's a) not a choice and b) devoid of friction. The Covenant system 100% allows you to change your Covenant at your choosing, just not without friction. Asking for it to have zero friction means it stops being a part of the gameplay - it's now just a piece of the UI, a Facebook game where you click the icon and have been told "Congrats! You did the right thing!" You enter the easiest version of the dungeon your UI presses could piece together for you, and are never asked "What would this be like if I had both strengths AND weaknesses."
    This isn't how wow works though... people just drop the classes that don't perform and then sell those players carries later...

    I don't get all this hypothetical game crafting when we see the results of those actions play out in real time...

    This sums it up...



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Please tell me when was grinding reps in dungeons a thing. Well I mean of course in BC dungeons gave the rep. Chainqueing to dungeons wasn't really a thing before mop. I remember doing it for whatever points to buy heirlooms. Even if you check a rep guide, any guide from cata, wrath the most efficient rep grind was in outdoors. Remember when before 3.3 you had to fish your daily group from trade chat because there was no group finder? And in Cata, doing the starter reps in dungeons was just a pain in the ass? Etcetc.
    Yes, maybe raidloggers were dragged and they screamed - not sure if it was "my territory", as if I am arguing agaisnt anyone - , but it was a thing nontheless. It was at least faster for them.
    I don't know if it was faster or not I imagine it was but it was far,far less enjoyable. In the past people could raid log and dungeon run and be content in their own lane of the game.

    Now you get bogged down in pointless and dull repetitive tasks grinding out bars to get your character up to the base line power you used to get at level cap and for what?

    To appease those people who are so anti social they can't even communicate and form groups in a virtual environment? Now it seems we are building a entire progression system at end game with the express purpose of trying desperately to make players feel special since when we did it with loot is was to exclusionary.

    I am just tired of this... I enjoy the game I really do but I admit every patch I know weigh how much I am going to be half afk watching a show on my second monitor grinding trash vs enjoying the parts of the game I love. I'm just tired of these constant changes to appease what I consider the worst of the playerbase in terms of both skill and community.

  10. #210
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
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    Exactly why it's nonsense to go through a quest line/grind lasting ~2 weeks, when the covenant you want to join back needs your help right now.
    If they needed your help they'd be like, yes, come... no you don't need to bring me "anima" for 2 weeks. You can start by doing these 4 dailies here.. every day, this is beneficial to us!

  11. #211
    Also, with the sheer amount of currencies needed for each tier upgrade for Sanctums, that is also a pretty significant choice in addition to Renown.

    It really seems confused and counterproductive as it is now to have gates beyond gates and also some of those gates also semi-permanently gate your fun. But part of me thinks the sudden emphasis on 4 currencies to unlock a damn tier of a sanctum is them prepping the grind for allowing easier swapping.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Also, with the sheer amount of currencies needed for each tier upgrade for Sanctums, that is also a pretty significant choice in addition to Renown.

    It really seems confused and counterproductive as it is now to have gates beyond gates and also some of those gates also semi-permanently gate your fun. But part of me thinks the sudden emphasis on 4 currencies to unlock a damn tier of a sanctum is them prepping the grind for allowing easier swapping.
    I think its more a desperate way for them to make people feel unique since blizzard is to afraid to do so via gear and random proc effects failed in bfa.

    They want people to feel special but they don't want that to be tied to accomplishments of skill.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    What are you even on about with switching and farming covenants? You know fully well that the issue is with it taking 1-2 weeks to accomplish the switch back.
    Once you farm the essences or the gear, you can switch ad-nauseum, so don't talk about stuff like this when it's not even close.
    You're either talking about the real issue, or you're just talking bullshit. I think we now know what you're full of.
    This is such a stupid hill for you to die on, get a grip man.

    Me coming from Night Fae doing dailies, to Venthyr raiding at 8 to 11 and then going Kyrian for M+ won't affect your gameplay or your role playing game.
    So we're coming back to this. You do not pay my subscription to tell me how to play the game, nor somebody else's, once you send me the money, we can talk restrictions for me, until then, move along and role-play how much you want in-game for your character.
    Yes it does affect other players gameplay. If you thibk that not having restrictions do no affect gameplay of players what want to play RPG game then you are truly delusional. Players always play game way its designed no way they want or around what is fun for them. And no its not player problem. Game devs are responsible for you having fun with game not player.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2020-08-16 at 10:25 PM.

  14. #214
    There are 3 gear progression paths in wow. Pvp, Raiding, M+

    If someone does 2 or even all three, they should have a gear advantage over someone who does just one.

    Likewise. If someone chooses to specialize in one of them instead of being a generalist. Then they should have an advantage in their chosen path.

    If johnny chooses to the best tank there has ever been, in mythic+. Then he should be able to do that.

    There cannot be a specialist, if everyone is able to switch covenants and be optimal in all three all the time.

    The current loadout systems are more than sufficient. Making covenants into another would just over complicate the game.

    You have to choose 1.

    Sure it's jarring. Sure it sucks that they are ripping the band-aid off like this. But in the end, it's better for the health of the game.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Yes it does affect other players gameplay.
    No it doesn't. If someone asks you to switch you can say no. That's on you.

  16. #216
    I refuse to think of all but the tiniest elite of hardcores being more worthy of *anything* than even a pet-battle only casual, because of the carry culture. Raid gear means nothing anymore, because everyone knows it can be bought in carries.

    So, I'm fine with covenant choices not being easy to change.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    Making covenants into another would just over complicate the game.

    You have to choose 1.
    But it's literally like, 2 mediocre passives and a couple of active abilities.

    There is literally nothing separating this from a couple of talent rows - that we should've been gaining over the last two expansions anyway!

    You had a point about specialists- one I disagreed with, but a point all the same until you said it would OVERCOMPLICATE things. That's just a load of crap.

    As far as specialists, your advantage on a chosen path is your ability to get specific stat-weighted gear and upgrading Conduits for a specific spec. Things are in place for if somebody wants to do that without it being too much of an advantage towards generalists.

    Sure, that kind of busy work is not as daunting as swapping Covenants, but 1.5-2 weeks just sounds like a fucking chore more than anything that would deter people being a generalist. It would be better for them to just put the swap behind rep or use Renown as a way to throttle it.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    There are 3 gear progression paths in wow. Pvp, Raiding, M+

    If someone does 2 or even all three, they should have a gear advantage over someone who does just one.

    Likewise. If someone chooses to specialize in one of them instead of being a generalist. Then they should have an advantage in their chosen path.

    If johnny chooses to the best tank there has ever been, in mythic+. Then he should be able to do that.

    There cannot be a specialist, if everyone is able to switch covenants and be optimal in all three all the time.

    The current loadout systems are more than sufficient. Making covenants into another would just over complicate the game.

    You have to choose 1.

    Sure it's jarring. Sure it sucks that they are ripping the band-aid off like this. But in the end, it's better for the health of the game.
    Sorry but this line of thinking is just stupid.
    If i do raids i want the best setup for raids, after raiding i do M+, i will do my best setup for it because i like to be the best i can be in ALL areas in which i participate in.
    Artificially denying me this prevents me from having fun.

    You saying i have to chose one, who exactly are you to dictate how i play? Are you paying my sub and i didn't know?
    You have zero right to tell me how to play the game.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    So not only will this give a chance to people playing "subpar" covenants to get invited, but also increase chances for less fotm classes to be invited. Sounds like a win-win situation
    No. Again, it's just another layer of things that people can deny you for. Instead of people denying you just because of your spec or your covenant choice, they'll also be doing it even more because you're not the right covenant for this specific dungeon. It's fine for the 6-8 specs who meet that criteria of right class, right covenant, right dungeon, but it leaves the other 27-29 spec out since they're now discriminated against because, although they're the right class or covenant usually, they're not for this specific dungeon.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    No it doesn't. If someone asks you to switch you can say no. That's on you.
    No it isnt. in moment you allow players to free swap they will force them self into being optimal. They will and will be forced by community to pick Covenant A, B or C. Get bored in process and quit. Restricting you prevents this. You can pick w/e you want and nobady can ask for you to have covenant A, B or C becouse its not in your power to swap into optimal one. There is plently of load out kind of systems we dont need another one.

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