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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    I have 4 other DPS on the list that have Focusing Iris. They are M+ "specialists." You aren't. They get invited. It didn't take 3-5 hours (lol).

    OR.

    It is swappable, everyone can demand BIS, but at least everyone gets a better shot at being able to play (and maybe even learn what the best essences are for a situation if they didn't know, wow!).
    Your group isnt only one forming group so 4 players with bis covenant for your specific dungeon where that covenant wont stay bis whole dungeon anyway isnt exactly much. There wont be any ultimate best covenant for mythic +. Threre will be bis covenant for dungeon A upto boss 2 if you are rogue with assa spec. Thats how covenants will work. If you really think 1 covenant stay bis in all mythic+ dungeons and in all type of bosses then you should wake up from your delusional dream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    The largest player loss that was ever recorded was in mop though... How does raid logging effect anything?

    Mythic raiders raided through the entire patch how is our retention the issue?

    You scream for busy work because you have no true goal of your own. Why lash out at us for your failings?
    No it was in WoD. Game has to retain casual palyers first those are players what pay big money not few mythic raiders.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Your group isnt only one forming group so 4 players with bis covenant for your specific dungeon where that covenant wont stay bis whole dungeon anyway isnt exactly much. There wont be any ultimate best covenant for mythic +. Threre will be bis covenant for dungeon A upto boss 2 if you are rogue with assa spec. Thats how covenants will work. If you really think 1 covenant stay bis in all mythic+ dungeons and in all type of bosses then you should wake up from your delusional dream.
    No there is gonna be a bis for mythic+ just like a bis in mythic and a bis in pvp. They are desperately trying to stave this off by adding specific covenant buff in dungeons but at best that opens up a token spot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Your group isnt only one forming group so 4 players with bis covenant for your specific dungeon where that covenant wont stay bis whole dungeon anyway isnt exactly much. There wont be any ultimate best covenant for mythic +. Threre will be bis covenant for dungeon A upto boss 2 if you are rogue with assa spec. Thats how covenants will work. If you really think 1 covenant stay bis in all mythic+ dungeons and in all type of bosses then you should wake up from your delusional dream.

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    No it was in WoD. Game has to retain casual palyers first those are players what pay big money not few mythic raiders.
    WoD lost players by giving "casuals" I know you mean bads btw free loot that was better then anything you could earn. Ironically trying to appeal to the worst of the playerbase always drives them away... its self defeating as all that fills their hearts is envy and rage.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    No there is gonna be a bis for mythic+ just like a bis in mythic and a bis in pvp. They are desperately trying to stave this off by adding specific covenant buff in dungeons but at best that opens up a token spot

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    WoD lost players by giving "casuals" I know you mean bads btw free loot that was better then anything you could earn. Ironically trying to appeal to the worst of the playerbase always drives them away... its self defeating as all that fills their hearts is envy and rage.
    No there wont be. Fact after so many months of aplha and beta and nobady can still tell us what is actualy bis for what only proves it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    No there is gonna be a bis for mythic+ just like a bis in mythic and a bis in pvp. They are desperately trying to stave this off by adding specific covenant buff in dungeons but at best that opens up a token spot

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    WoD lost players by giving "casuals" I know you mean bads btw free loot that was better then anything you could earn. Ironically trying to appeal to the worst of the playerbase always drives them away... its self defeating as all that fills their hearts is envy and rage.
    No WoD lost players becouse casual players had nothing to do which isnt case with now with transmog and ap systems what allow casual players base to play casualy and still have way to progress their characters.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    No there wont be. Fact after so many months of aplha and beta and nobady can still tell us what is actualy bis for what only proves it.

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    No WoD lost players becouse casual players had nothing to do which isnt case with now with transmog and ap systems what allow casual players base to play casualy and still have way to progress their characters.
    People have figured out what is bis though for each class. At best healers are debating between 2 since one offers dps utility but no its been mathed out already

    Casual players had nothing to do because they got free loot from garisons you can't appeal to bad players its why tbc did so well. You build a good game and they latch on like leeches regardless of what caters to them

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    People have figured out what is bis though for each class. At best healers are debating between 2 since one offers dps utility but no its been mathed out already

    Casual players had nothing to do because they got free loot from garisons you can't appeal to bad players its why tbc did so well. You build a good game and they latch on like leeches regardless of what caters to them
    Nobady figured anything. Its all speculation.
    Freelot have nothing to do with it. Casuals burned their casual content and if they get free gear or not have nothing to do with it. Once they finished LFR there was nothing left for them.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Nobady figured anything. Its all speculation.
    Freelot have nothing to do with it. Casuals burned their casual content and if they get free gear or not have nothing to do with it. Once they finished LFR there was nothing left for them.
    Yes they figured it out its in the class discords no one has written a guide as balancing isnt finished and it isnt worth the effort...

    As for what motivates terrible players I doubt they are anything but fickle. Maybe a bar to mindless fill does keep them subbed I would find that rather sad if that was the case though.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    I just really don't like how much of the RPG aspect has been gutted out of WoW to appease these people. Like, for example, skill trees. Aside from stats, and I suppose character creation, there's barely any RPG left in the game :/

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    That wasn't what I meant. I mostly mean things involving skill trees, stats, etc. Character growth, tweaking and the like. Gameplay decisions and stuff.
    Because they stop being decisions when there's a clear best answer. As Classic shows, vanilla was even more cookie cutter and has even less space for player builds if you want to be a high performer, but we didn't know that yet when we played it back then. Expecting people to play a 15 years old game like they play a brand new one is silly.

    If you want that player design space, play a single player RPG where poor performance affects only the poor performer, or stick to stuff like LFR where close to nobody gives a toss even if you're swinging your mace in melee as a priest. If I want to make custom builds and go hogwild, I'll play Dragon Age Origins, Dark Souls or Pillars of Eternity where I can be a Druid in full plate shooting people with an arquebus and nobody will complain about my DPS. WoW is where the min-maxing happens.


    As for Covenants, knowing more about how they work now, most of their power resides in Soulbinds which are tied to Renown, which is itself quite time-gated. I don't see the need to stop us from switching easily anymore; if I'm renown 20 Venthyr and switch to renown 1 Necrolords, I'll be at a disadvantage anyway until I build back up to the desired renown level (there are catch-ups, but still). Put a daily cooldown on switching much like Soulbinds are on a weekly cooldown.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    This isn't how wow works though... people just drop the classes that don't perform and then sell those players carries later...

    I don't get all this hypothetical game crafting when we see the results of those actions play out in real time...

    This sums it up...
    I don't need Blizzard to hold my hand and protect me from other people. There's literally millions of people playing this game... you can find 5-20 that aren't weird assholes. I haven't had a problem for 15 years, and I don't need people whose revenue stream is based on being angry all the time telling me I suddenly need that protection built into the game. Even when signing up for pugs, I play some weird and sub optimal specs... I don't think I'm entitled to a spot in anyone's group just for logging into the game, I move past the "declined"s, and eventually do what I set out to do. This is a facet of every MMO since the beginning of the genre, you're never going to design it away until you make everyone the same exact thing with the same 5 buttons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    Finally, if you lock covenants then what? You stay like that, you play like that for everything the game offers, is this fun?
    Let's lock specs next if it's fun being locked, no?
    FYI, You can change Covenants.
    Last edited by Akibaboy; 2020-08-16 at 11:50 PM.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    I don't need Blizzard to hold my hand and protect me from other people. There's literally millions of people playing this game... you can find 5-20 that aren't weird assholes. I haven't had a problem for 15 years, and I don't need people whose revenue stream is based on being angry all the time telling me I suddenly need that protection built into the game. Even when signing up for pugs, I play some weird and sub optimal specs... I don't think I'm entitled to a spot in anyone's group just for logging into the game, I move past the "declined"s, and eventually do what I set out to do. This is a facet of every MMO since the beginning of the genre, you're never going to design it away until you make everyone the same exact thing with the same 5 buttons.


    FYI, You can change Covenants.
    I can kinda get your argument but it doesn't make any sense in response to what I said or if I am being honest the topic of the thread. It is super you do you... but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    But until then, you and others of your mindset have absolutely zero rights to dictate how me or others play.
    Having a different opinion and voicing it. Is not at all the same thing as telling you how to play. Grow up.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Because they stop being decisions when there's a clear best answer. As Classic shows, vanilla was even more cookie cutter and has even less space for player builds if you want to be a high performer, but we didn't know that yet when we played it back then. Expecting people to play a 15 years old game like they play a brand new one is silly.

    If you want that player design space, play a single player RPG where poor performance affects only the poor performer, or stick to stuff like LFR where close to nobody gives a toss even if you're swinging your mace in melee as a priest. If I want to make custom builds and go hogwild, I'll play Dragon Age Origins, Dark Souls or Pillars of Eternity where I can be a Druid in full plate shooting people with an arquebus and nobody will complain about my DPS. WoW is where the min-maxing happens.


    As for Covenants, knowing more about how they work now, most of their power resides in Soulbinds which are tied to Renown, which is itself quite time-gated. I don't see the need to stop us from switching easily anymore; if I'm renown 20 Venthyr and switch to renown 1 Necrolords, I'll be at a disadvantage anyway until I build back up to the desired renown level (there are catch-ups, but still). Put a daily cooldown on switching much like Soulbinds are on a weekly cooldown.
    Classic hasnt showed anything. People you speak of are absolute minority. Casual players mostly pick w/e they want and do no swap talents becouse it cost huge amounth of gold and would make them broke. Problem is that people like you (mythic raiders, any mythic+ runners( lot of time force their playstyle on entire playerbase and think that playerbase play exactly how you play. I have bad news for you are one of hell minority. And Bliizzrd first of all wants to keep casual playerbase playing this game. Which means making game fun for casual playerbase. And restricting covenats will make game more fun for casual playerbase and less fun for minaxers. Wonder what audience will be priority.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2020-08-17 at 12:07 AM.

  12. #252
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    I don't need Blizzard to hold my hand and protect me from other people. There's literally millions of people playing this game... you can find 5-20 that aren't weird assholes. I haven't had a problem for 15 years, and I don't need people whose revenue stream is based on being angry all the time telling me I suddenly need that protection built into the game. Even when signing up for pugs, I play some weird and sub optimal specs... I don't think I'm entitled to a spot in anyone's group just for logging into the game, I move past the "declined"s, and eventually do what I set out to do. This is a facet of every MMO since the beginning of the genre, you're never going to design it away until you make everyone the same exact thing with the same 5 buttons.


    FYI, You can change Covenants.
    The issue is with the ~2week grind to rejoin a covenant.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Classic hasnt showed anything. People you speak of are absolute minority. Casual players mostly pick w/e they want and do no swap talents becouse it cost huge amounth of gold and would make them broke. Problem is that people like you (mythic raiders, any mythic+ runners( lot of time force their playstyle on entire playerbase and think that playerbase play exactly how you play. I have bad news for you are one of hell minority. And Bliizzrd first of all wants to keep casual playerbase playing this game. Which means making game fun for casual playerbase. And restricting covenats will make game more fun for casual playerbase and less fun for minaxers. Wonder what audience will be priority.
    Right but there isn't a need to care about the people who don't care and pick whatever. There isn't a point to appealing to them since they are not invested enough to notice to start with.

  14. #254
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    Having a different opinion and voicing it. Is not at all the same thing as telling you how to play. Grow up.
    Maybe you should actually understand what it means. Advocating to keep a restricting system because you don't want other players to switch because it's "bad to optimize" means exactly that, that you're telling them how to play the game.

    I'd tell you to grow up, but i'm sure you're trying your best, maybe you'll graduate in a few years.

  15. #255
    big yikes dude. Getting all worked up about something that's already set in stone. The entitlement is astronomical.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    Right but there isn't a need to care about the people who don't care and pick whatever. There isn't a point to appealing to them since they are not invested enough to notice to start with.
    Don't be stupid. Picking what you want =/= not caring and picking whatever. It is the exact opposite. They are the ones who actually want to make a meaningful choice, and you want there to not be a choice associated and just have a menu-selectable power. There is no point in appealing to the crowd that wants them free swappable, because they already aren't locked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    Maybe you should actually understand what it means. Advocating to keep a restricting system because you don't want other players to switch because it's "bad to optimize" means exactly that, that you're telling them how to play the game.
    That isn't telling you how to play the game. You are choosing to play the game that way.

    Let's be honest, both of you are basically just going "Waaaaaaah, I have to put in time and effort if I want to play optimally, please make it so I can click one button and be optimized!". Covenants are already fluid. The game doesn't need to be further watered down for the sake of """hardcore""" players who are too lazy to keep themselves optimized.

  17. #257
    Epic! Redroniksre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llyth View Post
    Except the hardcore scene also draws people of all skill levels into the game via streams and whatnot. It's free advertising. Without a hardcore scene they would lose tremendous amounts of money from this alone, not to mention the amount of char transfers the hardcore scene contributes with. My guild alone had well over 20 transfers done to buy BoEs cheap over this tier alone, and we're not even close to some of the guys I talk to.

    If you think that this is not a "dent" and that blizzard will keep the game running if it loses the money hardcore players bring in you are delusional.
    Right and how many RPers have payed to have race changes and so forth? Plenty of demographics pay a lot for in game purchases. And yes it is free advertising, except the one people watch are the ones who will play the game -regardless- of the increasing requirements. Nobody is watching the sub top 5 guilds, they are providing nothing (other than what you said) to Blizzard. So no i don't think it would still be a dent in the game.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    Maybe you should actually understand what it means. Advocating to keep a restricting system because you don't want other players to switch because it's "bad to optimize" means exactly that, that you're telling them how to play the game.

    I'd tell you to grow up, but i'm sure you're trying your best, maybe you'll graduate in a few years.
    You are doing the same to the people that want to specialize in one type of content. Your being able to switch comes at the cost of sticking with one covenant being meaningless.

    You can't have what you want, unless the choice becomes meaningless for everyone else. Guess who's gonna lose that battle? Heh

  19. #259

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Don't be stupid. Picking what you want =/= not caring and picking whatever. It is the exact opposite. They are the ones who actually want to make a meaningful choice, and you want there to not be a choice associated and just have a menu-selectable power. There is no point in appealing to the crowd that wants them free swappable, because they already aren't locked.


    That isn't telling you how to play the game. You are choosing to play the game that way.

    Let's be honest, both of you are basically just going "Waaaaaaah, I have to put in time and effort if I want to play optimally, please make it so I can click one button and be optimized!". Covenants are already fluid. The game doesn't need to be further watered down for the sake of """hardcore""" players who are too lazy to keep themselves optimized.
    My issue is idealism vs reality. End of the day it just works to lock people out of higher level of play unless they want to level and gear a alt. I've been on beta for a while now and there isn't a way to change this sadly.

    It is an annoying thing to deal with but it is what it is another gimmick system blizz is gonna panic abandon like azerite.

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