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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Classic hasnt showed anything. People you speak of are absolute minority. Casual players mostly pick w/e they want and do no swap talents becouse it cost huge amounth of gold and would make them broke. Problem is that people like you (mythic raiders, any mythic+ runners( lot of time force their playstyle on entire playerbase and think that playerbase play exactly how you play. I have bad news for you are one of hell minority. And Bliizzrd first of all wants to keep casual playerbase playing this game. Which means making game fun for casual playerbase. And restricting covenats will make game more fun for casual playerbase and less fun for minaxers. Wonder what audience will be priority.
    Sure, they're the minority. Do you even play Classic? There's more hardcore players than casuals remaining there because min-maxing and blowing up raids is all you can do unless you for some reason still partake in the abortion that is the PvP ranking system months behind.

    You still have failed to explain how stopping anyone from switching makes it more fun. Go ahead, tell me it's more RPG that way, I do need a laugh.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Sure, they're the minority. Do you even play Classic? There's more hardcore players than casuals remaining there because min-maxing and blowing up raids is all you can do unless you for some reason still partake in the abortion that is the PvP ranking system months behind.

    You still have failed to explain how stopping anyone from switching makes it more fun. Go ahead, tell me it's more RPG that way, I do need a laugh.
    It was posted earlier but i think you missed it nails the ' its a rpg" thing down pretty well

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    It was posted earlier but i think you missed it nails the ' its a rpg" thing down pretty well
    That's what I was mostly getting at, yeah. IMO all player power elements (so abilities and Soulbinds) should be freely swappable, or as I said on a daily cooldown at least. Leave the cosmetics, specific questlines and such hard to swap if need be, that's fine. The dungeon-specific bonuses can also stay as a nice perk.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    Preach dabbing on people claiming choices should matter while ignoring how the questing system actually works (especially the daily jab) is hilarious.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    eh... given that this forum is all "doom and gloom" (hell free buff for increased exp was commented as something bad here) most likely scenario is that if anything goes "wrong" it will be so insignificant it will not matter at all...
    btw, there was a poll about using that fallback scenarion Ion mentioned (separating cov abilities from covenants) and it was roughly 85% against the idea (before getting closed by mod ) so its does not seem its 50/50, it seems its quite tilted in one direction, just the other direction is more vocal
    hmm, ok. i just have another opinion here (about the thematics itself, not about covenants). about the doom and gloom, i agree. but Covenants will be another „fiasco“ imo. ofc, you can replace that term by „shifts ppl and player type to another direction“, because it will end up in more players leaving, but also some others starting, because „cool Covenants“ and the way profit is made out of WoW moves further into another direction (more short term and more by smart cash grab systems). also the WoW community accepts a lot and is somewhat submissive/masochist and a lot will still further stay and accept it, even when they not like it. so in the end of the day you are maybe right and Blizz is just making the same or more amount of money, in another way. and we all have the freedom, to stop playing and quit, when things change in a direction we dont like. maybe its me, that not want to accept, that after 15 years this game is that far away driven from its roots, that its now time to say goodbye.

    in the end it matters, what exactly the term „goes wrong“ mean. and from which point of view.

    so, idk.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-08-17 at 01:07 AM.

  6. #266
    People should just chill about covenant. Nobody's watching your essences, your azerite traits,your corruptions or your optimization. People are just checking your RIO in 90% of the time and that's it. If you have a shitty RIO, this won't be because you took the wrong covenant, but because you're bad.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    People should just chill about covenant. Nobody's watching your essences, your azerite traits,your corruptions or your optimization. People are just checking your RIO in 90% of the time and that's it. If you have a shitty RIO, this won't be because you took the wrong covenant, but because you're bad.
    This is pretty much the case. I play whatever I find fun, and I have a guild. We run through things successfully, my IO goes up, I get invited to groups. I pick the essences/traits/talents I find fun and use whatever random hodgepodge of corruptions landed in my bags.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    People who complain that the game is too easy probably haven't played it in 15 years or are only playing Classic. WoW is the hardest its ever been and I'm not sure that's a good thing
    Outside of mythic+ and mythic raiding, the game is incredibly easy with most content being quickly outgeared. Like 90% of the content is undertuned, then it suddenly gets super hard at the end. They difference between heroic and mythic is absolutely enormous, and that's a really bad thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnumbers View Post
    big yikes dude. Getting all worked up about something that's already set in stone. The entitlement is astronomical.
    Legiondaries were set in stone. Azerite was set in stone. MOP dailies were set in stone. Garrisons were set in stone.

    They all got massively changed at the end of the first patch based on player feedback. Same thing's gonna happen here. The odds that covenants stay like this for the entire expansion are incredibly low.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    1)Little jimmy swap talents, little jimmy swap corruption, little jimmy swap specs. For BG, for arena, for dungeons, for raids, for open worlds. Please provide any data outside your garbage superiority complexe that little jimmy won't swap covenants ?

    Because of, drums rolling, game design choice.

    Mind blowing right ? You aren't managing game development, they are...
    And yes "wow is dying", "Blizzard don't know", "Blizzard are idiots", and yet. 16 years later, they are still here, going strong. While 97.5% of MMOs from Vanilla launch til 2020 are dead.

    Do they always create good mechanics ? Obviously not. I stopped wow for the first time since 2004 because I just hate the corruption system. So what ? Should they just scrap it because I don't like it ? Should they make it irrelevant just because I don't like it ? No, they stick to their design choice. And that's fine. You can't please everyone.

    I will try SL. And I'm allready commited on my covenants purely based on their lore and asthetic by class. I know my choice won't prevent me to perform well at MM+, It won't stop me to clear every mythic raid with my guild like I always did. It won't prevent me to do arenas.

    And if by any chance my choices are such a burden that it really prevents me to clear every content I'm used to clear. I will stop playing wow again, really not that complicated.
    I certainly won't be crying outloud on forum about how desperate I am that a video game doesn't cave to every single desires I have...

    TL;DR The risk of the system failing obviously exist, doesn't mean I'm no excited about having an actual choice to make that will define the character for the ~2years of the expansion.
    you see blizzard makes design choices like this and say "we know what we are doing" and in the case of bfa some devs and blues took to twitter to tell players they were wrong. You had blues on the forums telling posters that titanforging wasnt going anywhere and the only reason they cared is because they cared about other players. In every one of those cases the devs changed their mind months after the fact and said "we hear your feedback and agree" and personally i dont see why they are wasting time on a system that players are already tearing holes into.

    Little jimmy wont swap because in the mindset of the OP he even says so but lets say that jimmy does swap....he is going to run into the issues that testers are pointing out right now and he is going to wonder "why cant i do the same thing i have done for over a decade??". Now lets take your character for example and say that you are super happy in your covenant and you like your ability. Now lets say they nerf the ability by 30%, which historically is possible, and then you decide you want to swap only to see you dont enjoy the covenant so you want to go back BUT now theres some kind of barrier to get back in. Does that feel good??

    You seem to think im crying that the game is dead and if they dont make the change it will ruin the game.
    1. you are very mistaken
    2. It wont ruin the game any more than the mythic gear lock did but its still shitting on players because "they arent having fun the right way"

    in WoD lfr gear was changed because blizzard was of the mindset "lfr should be a stepping stone not endgame" players gave feedback and the ones who used it as endgame told players who didnt even touch it "dont tell us how we should play." and the same thing happened with flying.

    You call it whining and complaining and say "we should trust blizzard to fix it" fuck no we should give feedback which is what people are doing because trusting blizzard gets azerite gear. The big thing right now is how the ones giving feedback on the system are having posts flagged by those who dont want them to have some form of choice. Im not saying make covenants swappable because the idea of pledging yourself to one of these factions and getting special weekly stuff and soul binds with mounts and gear is AWESOME 10/10 system. Tying a talent to it that you get to use while leveling but then get told "no you cant use it now" is bad and it shows if you play and off spec or dont want to be ok with being weaker one day because blizz nerfed your ability.

    Again theres no argument against letting players swap the abilities if they want because ppl conflate it with swapping covenants or just say "well you cant always be optimal" its not even about being optimal its about being able to compete with other players of the same spec, Its about not feeling gimped because you play multiple specs, its about not being locked into a choice that blizzard will inevitably screw with, its about being able to do multiple sets of content and not feeling weaker because of a talent choice that is locked in and swapping is gated.

    If someone can give a good reason as to why me swapping a covenant ability is a bad thing for them then i will agree but right now its just people trying to control how others play because they see it as wrong.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    CE player here... Actually world top raider for a long time once upon a time.

    My message: Stop caring about being 100% optimal all the time.
    Enjoy a game design that allows you to make choices that are -fun- for you to play with.
    Actual CE player here. If your not trying to optimize your gear then be prepared to be pugging with losers. The better players like myself will simply not invite you. I have been playing since vanilla and I have always had minimum requirements to join my alt runs. With the addition of mythic+ it's become even more important to make sure bads don't accidently pass the filters. Knowing someone's covenant will help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  11. #271
    Imagine people are scared that their covenant doesn't fit the "100% optimal-setup" just so the can play with degenerate players that are no fun to play with in the first place.

    This is when WoW stops being a game about having fun and starts being a game about some weird e-peen flex fetish.

    If someone can give a good reason as to why me swapping a covenant ability is a bad thing for them then i will agree but right now its just people trying to control how others play because they see it as wrong.
    It's simply not special anymore if you can switch every few minutes.
    It doesn't fit the in-game description of the whole thing, it will feel absolutely meaningless from a RPG point of view. My game experience in an RPG is worse if decisions I make have absolutely no meaning. It's like making a decision to kill an NPC in a story/playthrough just to have the option to respawn him later on because you found out that he'd sell an epic weapon if you leave him alive. Just knowing the possibility exist is enough.

    What was the Legion dungeon called again.. the one inside Suramar? It had buffs you could use depending on class and professions. That's actually something that should be all over the world, in every dungeon, in every raid, in every quest zone.
    Covenants are part of that.
    Add more stuff like that and you'll eventually get to a part where it's no longer feasable to have the "optimal" build - and that's when it will stop being a "problem" for everyone... and you will actually have an RPG on top of that. It's not even going far enough to my liking.

    They just have to make sure that all things add up to a certain degree of usefulness.
    Since they are working with borrowed powers, this is something that can certainly be done.

    I think doing a questline that will take a decent amount of time to finish, maybe even put it on a "weekly reset" is a good enough compromise for it to make sense...depending on what you actually do when you fight for your Covenant of course - you could also go with a reputation system too.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-08-17 at 05:38 AM.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.

    Friction is in a way the most important aspect in video games, as our sense of satisfaction is directly proportional to the amount of it we overcome via our actions and choices. If you can choose anything at any time, then it's a) not a choice and b) devoid of friction. The Covenant system 100% allows you to change your Covenant at your choosing, just not without friction. Asking for it to have zero friction means it stops being a part of the gameplay - it's now just a piece of the UI, a Facebook game where you click the icon and have been told "Congrats! You did the right thing!" You enter the easiest version of the dungeon your UI presses could piece together for you, and are never asked "What would this be like if I had both strengths AND weaknesses."
    again im not asking for swapping covenants

    its just swapping the talent like abilities that we already get to use while leveling

    theres 2 interactions within the covenant for these abilities and they arent very deep or complex

    the covenant choice is possibly the greatest thing coming out of this expansion but tying player power to it just to make sure everyone really cares about it when you already have story and cosmetics is going to lead people to having a bad time. Handwaving that away because "the game needs choice with friction" doesnt work in a competitive mmo. Give me the cosmetic and story choices and ill still care heck keep the soul binds and again ill still care but keeping the abilities tied to it goes from it being a complex choice i care about to being a pain in the ass if i want to do the best i can. It wouldnt even be that bad if the abilities were locked per spec because the abilities arent balanced to be useful to every spec. This is now used as a solution that i guess existed for over 15 years and nobody really cared. The friction or barriers of entry to doing something like m+ or heroic raiding has always been gear in one way or another and blizzard could bring that back but instead they screw with the class design.

    This is literally the main butt nugget in an otherwise amazing expansion. You add more opportunities of failure. You add more opportunities of exclusion. This isnt just for top end players its going to be for little jimmy lfr who thinks "i wanna do m+...what do you mean i need X covenant for Y dungeon??" The community is going to hurt itself more with this system than the top end and its going to suck for everyone except those of us who dont live in the pug world.

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Actual CE player here. If your not trying to optimize your gear then be prepared to be pugging with losers. The better players like myself will simply not invite you. I have been playing since vanilla and I have always had minimum requirements to join my alt runs. With the addition of mythic+ it's become even more important to make sure bads don't accidently pass the filters. Knowing someone's covenant will help.
    Sadly,

    In my experience there is a great portion of the world top 500 raider-base who are afflicted by a serious case of try-harding and overcompensating, but in the end not performing better than those who take a more relaxed approach and for whom it'll absolutely not matter one iota what covenant you're part of. That is just my view as a world top 5 raider.
    .:: Welcome to MMO-C Off-topic, where most people believe that leftism means being capitalism's HR department ::.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Redroniksre View Post
    Not OP, but i disagree. Not everything has to be hotswappable. I know for a fact if people could swap talents mid fight people would be doing it. My position is, i think min maxxers should be ignored, they make up such a small amount i couldnt care if they even left the game.

    Side note. I used to complain about group requirements back in Legion (the classic AoTC normal). The common response by min maxers was "make your own group". Funny how now that they might be affected they suddenly dont like it.

    Make your own group.
    The first flaw there is somehow managing to believe that random PuG Leader dickhead #32532 is a min/maxer or part of the arguably small percentage of them. There's a difference between being a min/maxer and being the kind of idiot that usually can't play a class for shit (aka making the min/maxing void and null, when the very basis of how effective your chase for the most optimal number is going to be is already a factor that's dead in the water) and thus has to 'make their own free carry', which is what I like to call the 'Make your own group' crowd from back then (and still to an extent today).

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Imagine people are scared that their covenant doesn't fit the "100% optimal-setup" just so the can play with degenerate players that are no fun to play with in the first place.

    This is when WoW stops being a game about having fun and starts being a game about some weird e-peen flex fetish.
    ok so how about you keep playing the game how you want and not tell those who like being optimal that they are having fun the wrong way.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    Again theres no argument against letting players swap the abilities if they want because ppl conflate it with swapping covenants or just say "well you cant always be optimal" its not even about being optimal its about being able to compete with other players of the same spec, Its about not feeling gimped because you play multiple specs, its about not being locked into a choice that blizzard will inevitably screw with, its about being able to do multiple sets of content and not feeling weaker because of a talent choice that is locked in and swapping is gated.

    If someone can give a good reason as to why me swapping a covenant ability is a bad thing for them then i will agree but right now its just people trying to control how others play because they see it as wrong.
    It's really simple. Blizzard does not think encouraging this method of gameplay is healthy for the game. So they actively discourage it through development. They have been doing it for years. If you think about it, every major system has been towards this goal. Sure they walked some of them back. And others they just switch up the method. The goal has never once changed.

    They are 100% against what you want.

  17. #277
    back in tbc we changed from aldor to scryer and vice versa and nobody said shit about it, or the murloc kind of people during wrath of the lich kind and nobody complained about the rep farm.

    I do not understand all the talk about this.
    you have to make a choice. as a warrior main since vanilla, i either choose; maldraxxus to look like a badass and with a cool concept of a banner to rally my allies (rp) + somewhat of a bloodlust every 3 mins?

    or

    i go venthry and fucking execute the shit out of everything from first %20 then last %20.

    the choice is clear if you want to do hc raiding / +plus around10~15.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    It's really simple. Blizzard does not think encouraging this method of gameplay is healthy for the game. So they actively discourage it through development. They have been doing it for years. If you think about it, every major system has been towards this goal. Sure they walked some of them back. And others they just switch up the method. The goal has never once changed.

    They are 100% against what you want.
    That is why people are providing feedback. Especially when they have this mindset with this solution that wont really work. Ion tried comparing covenants to artifact weapons.

    I get what they want to do and its a good goal but this is not going to achieve that goal. They made gear simpler which goes against the idea of "rpg choices matter". Not one time in the last 6 years has their attempt to make this stuff happen actually worked.
    Lock m+ gear?? Well ppl will do skips and create a stricter meta.
    remove master loot?? Well more split runs.
    Ilvl restrictions on trading?? Well ppl are gonna craft high ilvl loot that is useless for them but allows them to trade.
    lfr gear change?? Well that was just straight up dropped.
    no flight?? dropped but we got pathfinder

    This new system is essentially what they planned for azerite and i dont see why they dont just have an anima cost attached. Literally just make it to where if you need 100 anima for the next renown level instead you use it to rejoin an old covenant. The system still provides "friction" and "choice with consequences" while not gimping some players who want to play multiple specs. I mean imagine swapping to your off spec but keeping your main spec azerite gear.

    Blizzard are stubborn to the point it doesnt make sense. M+ cache at the beginning of bfa dropping azerite armor as the single piece instead of the extra even though that change wasnt mentioned in the notes or by any news site and blizzards response "we made it a week before beta ended its your fault if you didnt notice" all while saying "this is how it worked in legion" and "azerite is a replacement for leggos". The result was after a couple months they compromised and fed us the "we heard you and agree" line.

    The system will change but i would prefer they not be so stubborn that it makes people have to wait for months after launch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    back in tbc we changed from aldor to scryer and vice versa and nobody said shit about it, or the murloc kind of people during wrath of the lich kind and nobody complained about the rep farm.

    I do not understand all the talk about this.
    you have to make a choice. as a warrior main since vanilla, i either choose; maldraxxus to look like a badass and with a cool concept of a banner to rally my allies (rp) + somewhat of a bloodlust every 3 mins?

    or

    i go venthry and fucking execute the shit out of everything from first %20 then last %20.

    the choice is clear if you want to do hc raiding / +plus around10~15.
    because if you went aldor and bought the rewards then went scryer...you didnt lose anything

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    ok so how about you keep playing the game how you want and not tell those who like being optimal that they are having fun the wrong way.
    Because the way you have fun stops development? You are limiting design decisions as small as this covenant stuff in fear of unequal performance in every single situation - which isn't given in any form anyway because classes still perform differently - in every single situation.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-08-17 at 06:29 AM.

  20. #280
    Most of this argument can be distilled down to one question Ion asked Preach during their discussion. @14:43 Is it ideal for every hunter doing a mythic raid encounter to be the same, and the only difference being who executes the rotation and mechanic better? Preach believes so, Ion doesn't.

    Group A: Definitely want that. They want to do everything in their power to make their character as good as possible. They want to look at that other hunter and compete and know that skill is what defined who is better. And this is probably the camp a majority of higher end players fall in.

    Group B: Want their hunter to be different. They don't want to just be a BM Hunter, they want to be a Kyrian BM Hunter. This player, ideally, accepts that their choice will benefit them on some fights and hinder them on others.


    If there were clear demarcations between the groups based on content then this wouldn't be a problem. Blizz could just have a covenant swapping token drop from Mythic raids or high m+. But there are Type A players at all levels not just the top, and the social pressures of guilds and groups means that if the covenants are easily swappable then Type B players will be coerced/guilted/forced to change for their peers. This system will inherently frustrate Type A players but Blizz has seemed to decide that it's worth it.

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