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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    This is pretty much the case. I play whatever I find fun, and I have a guild. We run through things successfully, my IO goes up, I get invited to groups. I pick the essences/traits/talents I find fun and use whatever random hodgepodge of corruptions landed in my bags.
    I do this too! The unfortunate part is that when picking essences, for my BM hunter I have the most fun with Blood Of The Enemy in raids and M+, but I have the most fun with Reaping Flames on my SV hunter in pvp! So one group here is advocating for "pick whatever you have the most fun with" and the other is "pick whatever youll have the most fun with but you cant change it from activity to activity so lololol if its not the same for you min/max scum."

    Which brings us back to the argument which is why? Why limit when there is a very clear answer for each given scenario? Because YOU don't want to feel forced? well you aren't!! if you want to do low M keys and a few bosses in heroic awesome! I hope you do well and have fun! If I want to push gladiator and mythic raids why would you want make me choose what to be optimal in? (esp. when its never happened before in borrowed powers).

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Funny, I don't recall gaining reputation with the Horde. Three times over.

    It's correct nominally, but there's no actual logic to it. But no, my main thing I'm stating you're wrong about is the attitude you have towards other players.

    Then what the fuck is skill or accomplishment? Who determines that? Using the abilities at your disposal to make intelligent judgments in a timely manner to reduce the other team's/boss'/whatever HP to 0 while staying above 0 is the basis for gameplay in most games. What is this pretentiousness about art thievery? If that's not justification for someone having their own ability to accomplish something, what is and who gets to decide that? What gives them the right? If someone chooses what's good, that's within their right if they learn how to play it and execute it. It's the easy path, but it's their decision, and there will always be a flavor of the month to trend-chase. It's the nature of the beast.

    This is literally a slippery slope fallacy.

    How did you take the analogy already tailor made and butcher it this horribly?

    Covenant abilities, particularly the class ones, are still created around the strengths and weaknesses of the overall given class, even if some favor specific specializations. So no, having that ability to swap is not making a perfect character, because most still reflect that class' overall flavor/kit. That's a bullshit takeaway. Again, it would be more akin to only being allowed to have 1 of your 4 special moves or combinations

    No. They absolutely can. Never underestimate that level of douchebaggery. Blizzard and their sycophants need to stop trying to "fix" the problem that cannot be fixed. It's so much easier to just...make a good game, and then let positive elements and voices of the community find one another.
    You may not have gained rep gameplay wise but you sure have saved their assess a thousand times more often than you helped out the covenants. You even helped get their city back from genocidal monsters twice.

    There's no actual logic to a ritual possibly overwriting another when when we already know all over lore other magic writes over other magic all the time like with enchants, runes, spells, polymorphs, etc.....? And so far it seems like that's what actually happens in the beta atleast from what you have told me.

    Have you never played a game where players use identical characters? Like what can often happen in fighting games? Skill is when all things equal you are able to take them. Since you seem to think my art analogy was pretentious lets use a little more "common folk" one for you: If you buy a thousand prostitutes does that mean you have the skill to pick up ladies? No. You may have slept with 9995 more women than most people but you still have no skill at picking up women. You may have an amazing skill at making money to be able to afford all of them depending on what they charge but you still have no skill at actually dating a woman or interacting with them without paying for sex and you have never accomplished actually asking a woman on a date. If you still don't understand the concept of skill after that may I suggest to you learning how to use google.

    And how is it a slippery slope fallacy? Prove to me that giving in to whiny little bitches would make them never bitch again. Did a guy troll Blizzard and claim to be a woman who thought Ji firepaw was rapey by saying "her" female character was good looking? Yes. And did Blizzard change the dialogue? Yes. Did that then cause more trolls to troll Blizzard like Tracer's butt pose? Yes. And did Blizzard cave in even more and pander even more? Yes. Whats to stop this from having the same consequences?

    Uh no your analogy doesn't make any sense. A fighting game character already has its kit built in. You don't change anything out. Each individual spec is like its own fighter. So if you are an arcane mage with a covenant teleport ability you would be like a low health but high dmg and mobility fighter. Instant swaps lets you change out a little bit of the mobility for maybe more health or some shit(in this fighting game example) meaning you now can easily survive the hits of your opponent when you see that its a fast light dmg range specialist hitter who would normally destroy an equally skilled arcane teleport mage. You now won the fight through no skill of your own other than knowing what his counter was. You then do the same for every other player you fight against because you can pick the most op skill for each situation. So thats how you are asking for a perfect character with no downsides. You can cheese every fight because you can switch part of your character without changing the character itself.

    So you disagree that personal loot helped lower the number of assholes? Clearly Blizzard does help lower the number of dick head players. Does it make it 0? No but having 1/4th of the original number of dbags is alot better then letting them run rampant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    I'm not telling you how to play the game, i'm saying you can do wtf you want to do, if you want to not change covenants, then don't? if you want to.. then do? As opposed to me where you're saying i can't switch covenants.
    You're also pretty delusional if you don't think Blizzard needs to cater to their paying customers.
    Oh you're paying too? Well jee, wouldn't it be bad if you could swap covenants? What? It doesn't matter to you? Well shucks.
    It's either lockdown or not, not having a lockdown doesn't restrain you, instead a lockdown does restrain me.
    Get some common sense and then read the bolded part again.
    Yeah Blizzard is listening to its paying customers who like having to make actual choices. It's sad that you feel they need to listen to an extremely small minority of an extremely small minority. And if players can demand you swap covenants then it most certainly does effect people who don't want to.


    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    Again theres no argument against letting players swap the abilities if they want because ppl conflate it with swapping covenants or just say "well you cant always be optimal" its not even about being optimal its about being able to compete with other players of the same spec, Its about not feeling gimped because you play multiple specs, its about not being locked into a choice that blizzard will inevitably screw with, its about being able to do multiple sets of content and not feeling weaker because of a talent choice that is locked in and swapping is gated.

    If someone can give a good reason as to why me swapping a covenant ability is a bad thing for them then i will agree but right now its just people trying to control how others play because they see it as wrong.
    Because it makes people believe they are better than they actually are? And if some day blizzard actually balance shit perfectly then what? Suddenly they are complaining because they no longer can do the content they used to. And whats going to happen when Blizzard comes back and tells them they can't just nerf people in arena because they are now losing 90% of their matches?

    Relying on op powers for each situation means you can't grow as a person or a player.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-08-17 at 06:53 AM.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    ok so how about you keep playing the game how you want and not tell those who like being optimal that they are having fun the wrong way.
    But the current state of the covenant system is *Blizzard* telling you you're "Playing the wrong way", or at least being a bit overly fixated on being 100% optimized for absolutely everything.

    I'm guessing (As somebody who doesn't work at Blizzard, that's as close as i'll get to knowing for sure) that being great at some things and less so at others is the design intention, and covenants being a bit more involved than "Give me a sec, i'll switch specs" is their intention too, how is any choice meaningful if you can change your mind at the drop of a hat?

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Flantini View Post
    I do this too! The unfortunate part is that when picking essences, for my BM hunter I have the most fun with Blood Of The Enemy in raids and M+, but I have the most fun with Reaping Flames on my SV hunter in pvp! So one group here is advocating for "pick whatever you have the most fun with" and the other is "pick whatever youll have the most fun with but you cant change it from activity to activity so lololol if its not the same for you min/max scum."

    Which brings us back to the argument which is why? Why limit when there is a very clear answer for each given scenario? Because YOU don't want to feel forced? well you aren't!! if you want to do low M keys and a few bosses in heroic awesome! I hope you do well and have fun! If I want to push gladiator and mythic raids why would you want make me choose what to be optimal in? (esp. when its never happened before in borrowed powers).
    Because he and others are interested in a system where the good players have it as difficult as possible to filter out the bad players, as bad players need good players to get them through content. And the bad players are the majority in WoW.
    It is the same reason why there are so many that rage against damage meters, Raider IO, warcraftlogs, demand that "armoury should be private".

    Blizzard keeps trying to make systems that obfuscate your ability to discern "good" players from "bad" players as the "bad" are the majority.
    But the "good" players quickly break Blizzard's "code" and adapt to these obfuscating systems. And the "bad" players are again left behind, flooding all available forums with their laments about "gate-keeping" etc.

    The only way to stop this constant conflict is to design the game so that player input would have no effect on the game world, but that would be to much even for the "bad" players.
    The best thing "good" players can do is to gather information about the systems, analyse that information and use it to select whom you play with to maximize your enjoyment of the game.

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Don't be stupid. Picking what you want =/= not caring and picking whatever. It is the exact opposite. They are the ones who actually want to make a meaningful choice, and you want there to not be a choice associated and just have a menu-selectable power. There is no point in appealing to the crowd that wants them free swappable, because they already aren't locked.


    That isn't telling you how to play the game. You are choosing to play the game that way.

    Let's be honest, both of you are basically just going "Waaaaaaah, I have to put in time and effort if I want to play optimally, please make it so I can click one button and be optimized!". Covenants are already fluid. The game doesn't need to be further watered down for the sake of """hardcore""" players who are too lazy to keep themselves optimized.
    Are you dense? Do you have a lack of understanding? I can't choose to play the game like i want to play. It's basic logic, if you go against my way of play, you're telling me i can't play like that.
    You guys have zero, absolutely zero understanding of what you're asking for and its implications to other players.

    I'm not sure if you guys are that ignorant though, you understand and you know what you're asking for, so cut the "i'm not telling you how to play" bullshit when you know that that's what you're advocating for.

    Also you think someone who plays multiple areas at high and high-med levels of the game doesn't put in effort? Okay, lol.. i'm sure you're "efforting" doing dailies and lfr, carry on.
    Last edited by Rayzen17; 2020-08-17 at 07:23 AM.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    You are doing the same to the people that want to specialize in one type of content. Your being able to switch comes at the cost of sticking with one covenant being meaningless.

    You can't have what you want, unless the choice becomes meaningless for everyone else. Guess who's gonna lose that battle? Heh
    You know full well that that's a lie. Those who want to specialize in 1 type of content, can do so without prohibition. Hey look, i've chosen my raid Covenant and my ST soulbinds and now i am specialized in raiding, i feel no need to specialize in other areas so i'll just stay as a raid specialist.
    Look, they can specialize how they want with unlocked covenants too. That was hard, it's like your problem, does not exist?

    You can chose to remain with 1 covenant and that choice would be meaningful if you could switch freely but chose not to, you sticking with 1 covenant because of the game, makes your choice less meaningful. So you see? It's more meaning to have these able to be switched freely than not.

    Me choosing to switch 2-3 covenants per day does not reduce your meaningful choice if you chose to not switch, it reinforces it.

    So basically there is no issue with letting covenants be freely switchable, it actually reinforces your "meaningful choice".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Yeah Blizzard is listening to its paying customers who like having to make actual choices. It's sad that you feel they need to listen to an extremely small minority of an extremely small minority. And if players can demand you swap covenants then it most certainly does effect people who don't want to.
    You have zero proof of who's the minority or majority here. But you can keep thinking that way.

  7. #287
    For me the issue is nothing to do with "casual vs hardcore" - which itself is a stupid context for any game design. The root issue is that we allow players to switch talents inside a dungeon / raid and this has resulted in the drive for constant optimal character set up for each encounter. There is no need for players to weigh up the pros and cons of a build for an entire raid and that is why we have the fuss now about Covenants. There should be hard limits as to what a player can do once they enter a dungeon to the extent that players should be stopped from leaving, respeccing and then re-entering. The old pre-Cata game had the design ethos right - allocate your trait points and play that specialisation as a fundamental aspect of character progression.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingheadache View Post
    For me the issue is nothing to do with "casual vs hardcore" - which itself is a stupid context for any game design. The root issue is that we allow players to switch talents inside a dungeon / raid and this has resulted in the drive for constant optimal character set up for each encounter. There is no need for players to weigh up the pros and cons of a build for an entire raid and that is why we have the fuss now about Covenants. There should be hard limits as to what a player can do once they enter a dungeon to the extent that players should be stopped from leaving, respeccing and then re-entering. The old pre-Cata game had the design ethos right - allocate your trait points and play that specialisation as a fundamental aspect of character progression.
    There was never a hard time switching your talents, you paid a small fee, you switched.

    Totally different than doing a 2 week grind to re-join a covenant.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post

    Me choosing to switch 2-3 covenants per day does not reduce your meaningful choice if you chose to not switch, it reinforces it.

    So basically there is no issue with letting covenants be freely switchable, it actually reinforces your "meaningful choice".
    That is not true...the ability to choose freely just like that is enough to make my decision feel meaningless.
    You might disagree and not care about how people perceive stuff, but that doesn't make it any less true.
    Consequences that can be changed on a whim aren't consequences.
    Decisions that involve picking a covenant you back, aren't decisions when you just back all of them, even if they stand in direct conflict with each other.

    Playing, for exmaple, a Holy Order character that doesn't strictly have to follow the views and aspect of that Holy Order whenever he sees fit, or the situation becomes "inconvenient" limits or changes my view about the experience. Wether I actually decide to follow it or not doesn't matter, when the game I'm playing is basically saying "you know, we usually follow our order rules, but that's more of a suggestion than a requirement"

    Being limited to what you have and can do, can actually be fun and isn't always bad, and RPGs are all about that in actuality. And you don't have to try-hard roleplay when you do that. It affects the world and world building even if you don't.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-08-17 at 08:03 AM.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    That is not true...the ability to choose freely just like that is enough to make my decision feel meaningless.
    You might disagree and not care about how people perceive stuff, but that doesn't make it any less true.
    Consequences that can be changed on a whim aren't consequences.
    Hey look, you said it right here "perceive stuff", so your issue is with how you perceive this.
    Well guess what, being locked in is not something perceived, it's something real affecting gameplay with each decision when switching.

    There are real benefits to switching, your perceived meaningful choice is not something palpable.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingheadache View Post
    For me the issue is nothing to do with "casual vs hardcore" - which itself is a stupid context for any game design. The root issue is that we allow players to switch talents inside a dungeon / raid and this has resulted in the drive for constant optimal character set up for each encounter. There is no need for players to weigh up the pros and cons of a build for an entire raid and that is why we have the fuss now about Covenants. There should be hard limits as to what a player can do once they enter a dungeon to the extent that players should be stopped from leaving, respeccing and then re-entering. The old pre-Cata game had the design ethos right - allocate your trait points and play that specialisation as a fundamental aspect of character progression.
    The issue isnt necessarily whats optimal/best but most importantly whats fun for me in any given content. With content demands/challenges changing so much between M+/pvp/raids, (especially different roles!) whats fun for me also changes. So with the system the way it is I have to choose when I have the most fun and when I want to have less fun, which is a bad system in MY opinion.

    Again, as the system is in BFA, you can pick a sub optimal essence that YOU have more fun with (Ie Focusing Iris for big kamehamehas) and that's fine. You can also change them given what content/role you are playing and that's fine. That's all anyone is asking for is that we can continue to play our class the way the individual player finds the most fun in ANY given content, rather than feel forced into some kind of "sub class option" that's incredibly difficult to change.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    There was never a hard time switching your talents, you paid a small fee, you switched.

    Totally different than doing a 2 week grind to re-join a covenant.
    You didn't read my post. I didn't refer specifically to covenants as a once-only choice. My issue is that players have far too much freedom inside raids & dungeons to change talents and it is that need to constantly optimal for each pull that is, imo, the heart of the issue.

    The constraints put on a player for how & when they can change covenants is a completely separate matter, but one that cannot be addressed until such time as Blizzard gets to grip with the situation they have created re talents.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    Hey look, you said it right here "perceive stuff", so your issue is with how you perceive this.
    Well guess what, being locked in is not something perceived, it's something real affecting gameplay with each decision when switching.

    There are real benefits to switching, your perceived meaningful choice is not something palpable.
    I edited my post a bit. Either way, you have a different view on this can't understand the other side. I tried to explain it properly to you though.
    I do understand why you want to switch freely, but you do not understand why people don't want it.
    Perception is a valid enough reason to lock covenants completely, or at least put them behind "effort", wether you like it or not, that's your problem.

    It tells a whole lot about you that you can't seem to understand it though. It's not necessarily bad that you don't... but you sure as hell give a fuck about RPG elements in an MMORPG.
    Well I do. Guess I'm in luck this time around.

    You can be certain btw, that when easily swapped out covenants (or, obviously, a system alike to it) would be a thing in any other (solo)RPG, it would end up being a huge critique point for many players and lower the games overall-rating.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-08-17 at 08:12 AM.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingheadache View Post
    You didn't read my post. I didn't refer specifically to covenants as a once-only choice. My issue is that players have far too much freedom inside raids & dungeons to change talents and it is that need to constantly optimal for each pull that is, imo, the heart of the issue.

    The constraints put on a player for how & when they can change covenants is a completely separate matter, but one that cannot be addressed until such time as Blizzard gets to grip with the situation they have created re talents.
    Switching when you want isn't an issue, it's a gameplay choice, just like not switching is an option you actually have in that case.

    Where is this issue with being able to switch if you want? I've raided in multiple tiers, normal (guild and pug), heroic (guild and pug), mythic (guild and pug - just 3 bosses on an alt) and we've never had to sit around waiting for people to make modifications to their build between bosses. If anyone, did, they did it with their own time.
    There is literally zero issues now with people switching, and there would be zero issues with people switching covenants.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I edited my post a bit. Either way, you have a different view on this can't understand the other side. I tried to explain it properly to you though.
    I do understand why you want to switch freely, but you do not understand why people don't want it.
    Perception is a valid enough reason to lock covenants completely, or at least put them behind "effort", wether you like it or not, that's your problem.
    Well it seems that your problem is you can't hang on to your conviction to not switch if presented the opportunity. That's 100% on you.
    So there is no meaningful choice to be had here, you don't actually want to make one, you want to be forced to make one. That's a weak conviction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It tells a whole lot about you that you can't seem to understand it though. It's not necessarily bad that you don't... but you sure as hell give a fuck about RPG elements in an MMORPG.
    Well I don't. Guess I'm in luck this time around
    RPG takes a backseat to gameplay, always has, always will be.
    You know this too. If Blizzard were to say that specs are locked permanently tomorrow. Would you like this?
    How about this.. would their subs go down or up?
    Do you think players would like such a meaningful choice?

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    You can always choose to not switch though. Your experience is not defined by others unless you allow them to do so.
    Well it seems that your problem is you can't hang on to your conviction to not switch if presented the opportunity. That's 100% on you.
    So there is no meaningful choice to be had here, you don't actually want to make one, you want to be forced to make one. That's a weak conviction.

    What's so difficult to understand that my experience is defined by that? Unless Blizzard specifically locks my character, it affects my perception about the whole idea.
    The game literally tells me that I'm not locked into anything.
    Even if it doesn't, players switching back and forth around me while I stand next to them is already immersion breaking.

    Eh you really don't get to define what RPGs are all about tbh. There is a very wide number of reasons people play RPGs and making meaningful choices in character design is probably a very small part of them.
    Yes I do in that regard, because I'm basically using a definition of the genre. I'm not talking about what players find "fun" or not (I only said that I find that aspect of it "fun").
    It's called "role-playing game" because you play "a" character role - not *every* role at once.

    RPG takes a backseat to gameplay, always has, always will be.
    You know this too. If Blizzard were to say that specs are locked permanently tomorrow. Would you like this?
    How about this.. would their subs go down or up?
    Do you think players would like such a meaningful choice?
    I wouldn't mind personally. Each player has his own views on how much they want. You want nothing of it, I would love a lot more.
    I played MMO-games where this is the case and I loved them. I played games where respeccing would mean creating a new character and that was fine too.

    WoW could *certainly* make use more of such decisions. By now it's pretty much a joke and probably also limiting any form of meaningful character-building.


    Well it seems that your problem is you can't hang on to your conviction to not switch if presented the opportunity. That's 100% on you.
    So there is no meaningful choice to be had here, you don't actually want to make one, you want to be forced to make one. That's a weak conviction.
    Eh...?
    I couldn't care less about what you think my conviction is. That's not part of the problem or discussion.
    A meaningful choice is whenever there is a meaning attached to it. Not having to make choices because I get to have all 3 choice means it can't be meaningful either. That's just how it is.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-08-17 at 08:31 AM.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Most importantly, which other RPG has content that is as tightly tuned as Mythic Raids in WoW? Ultimately that is the issue. The hardest content in this game requires very high levels of optimization.
    In that case the problem really has to do with raid tuning.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by MartiniSaint View Post
    so basically you dont want to be optimal and you want the game to give you an excuse not to be optimal while it crushes others with its restrictiveness in the hopes they relent on trying to form the group they want and have to invite you. boi if thats not some selfish shit right there
    Hahaahahaha so well said hahahaa i loved this

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Your issue is that choice is available and you don't want to make those choices but you feel compelled to. It's like asking the government to ban alcohol and fatty food because you cannot restrain yourself.If locking your character is important to you, do it.[/B]
    .
    I think that's more like...your problem... right?
    Having choices (the covenants), but not wanting to make a choice (not wanting to commit).

    My point is that I don't have choices to make when I can switch around freely without anything attached to it that makes sense from a story/RPG point of view.

  19. #299
    Never understood why they had to put character power behind these covenants in the first place. The classes & specs should be fun and cool to play from the very core with the talents and abilites they have as baseline. Not only are they hiding character power behind these covenants, they also hide gameplay features that probably will make your class/spec more fun and cool to play.

    They could have added flavour RPG elements behind these covenants and stopped there. Cosmetics, pets, mounts, story/Lore from that covenants perspective, maybe cool visuals. Maybe perks like everlasting flasks, enchants being buffed, blacksmith patterns++. Maybe have content tied to each covenant where you could fight/compete against other people in same covenant in various activites.

    The ideas here really are endless, but the point is to not hide power behind it. Its so sad Blizzard cant deliver good gameplay at its core, without these borrowed abilites making it good.

    It sucks now, and it will suck when live.

    Its also stupidly alt-unfriendly and alot of people will experience what they did in BfA. Get bored of farming the same stuff again and again and do two things; Focus on 1 character until bored or just unsub between patches. Most people will probably do the latter.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Don't be stupid. Picking what you want =/= not caring and picking whatever. It is the exact opposite. They are the ones who actually want to make a meaningful choice, and you want there to not be a choice associated and just have a menu-selectable power. There is no point in appealing to the crowd that wants them free swappable, because they already aren't locked.


    That isn't telling you how to play the game. You are choosing to play the game that way.

    Let's be honest, both of you are basically just going "Waaaaaaah, I have to put in time and effort if I want to play optimally, please make it so I can click one button and be optimized!". Covenants are already fluid. The game doesn't need to be further watered down for the sake of """hardcore""" players who are too lazy to keep themselves optimized.
    How is arguing against a 2 week or similar cooldown literally making it impossible to adapt covenant to bosses, whining about not having one button optimisation?

    On one hand literaly impossibility due to a cooldown
    On the other hand one button effect
    ????????????????

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