"Does it matter to you casuals if we hardcores get fluid covenants?" Yes, here's why.

[Omedon]

Versions of the covenant debate always seem to come down to this point: "Since you're so casual, what does it matter if we who play for keeps push for the ability to swap covenants? Stay out of the discussion if you don't do X high end content!"

Staying out of the discussion is entirely the point of why players like me care. An approachable on-ramp to later game ambition is at the core of why covenants are being presented as intentionally diverse and simultaneously rigid. The entire intent to let new blood try M+ or raiding difficulties beyond LFR (which, once again are more optional than ever and we literally and intentionally have nothing to threaten each other with in regards to content access so long as the main thoroughfare of queuable difficulties include every raid and dungeon), giving people the option, whether it be with the intended established community or the odd available (but less intended) PUG is at the core of why covenants are being presented this way.

"Don't be new on other people's time" is a motto that has grown into WoW as time efficiency rears its ugly head as a key metric in using pick up groups to run PVE team content such as M+ and raids above LFR. The more gears and wheels that will freely rotate into a position that could be optimal or less optimal, the harder "being new" is, and in a situation where WoW does its best to protect us from the worst of each other in as much content as possible (which arguably won't and can't include premade team content, but they're allowed to try), the less approachable that later game content is. This is an important factor.

"But people can just look it up the right configuration," you might say. News flash: that's an answer ignorant to the fact that not everyone will do that, will want to do that, or will think that should be necessary in a game of this caliber. "Well then they aren't entitled to membership in my group and I am free to decline them," you might say... and you wouldn't be wrong, but rigid covenants are exactly the kind of front that WoW can potentially address, on their game's level, the whole "why am I being declined" issue.

I've said before that they will never fully address such a community issue as FOTM and meta, but this might be one of the ways they can actually do that: by cutting down on easily changeable variables and, in a world where the great vault is ticking and you have X number of M+ runs that your OCD is wrongly forcing you to do (another thing that isn't Blizzard's responsibility to work around), making it harder to actually form the perfect group might, in theory, have you take that less meta-class newer player of the "right" covenant into your group just to get it done and over with.

At the end of the day, no, these headaches won't be mine, so long as I can see all the content and achieve my cosmetic goals in queueable or soloable content, I will continue to do what I've done for two expansions now: pretend M+ doesn't exist. The thing is... there is a part of me that might want to give M+ a try some day, and if that moment comes, I will appreciate if the approachability of "no one sane will be asking you to switch covenants" is built into the social compact of the game for reasonable, worthwhile players.

So yes, if you get what you want up there at the high end, the damage trickles down. It matters. There is another viable perspective, people are allowed (intended) to pick their covenant for concept and flavor, and it's blizzard's job to make each covenant "not wrong" for 99.9% of the players doing the vast majority of the content, and we have no reason yet to believe they haven't done that. Keep giving your feedback, and I will keep validating that people seeing covenants as an opportunity for character expression are not wrong.

Thank you for reading!

[Zyky]

Thank you for reading!

What your incoherent babble fails to understand is that a covenant will not make you a good player. If you're trash you're still going to have a hard time "getting into M+"

[Azerate]

I think the dungeon covenant buffs are a genius move that kind of shuts down many of the arguments raised by the top players, especially how covenants will supposedly negatively impact the casual playerbase.

In making all covenants useful for different dungeons, they basically ensure that no covenant is the bad one. 200 iq move by Blizzard right there.

There are still more areas where they could add covenant bonuses to make them even more useful across the board.

[MartiniSaint]

so basically you dont want to be optimal and you want the game to give you an excuse not to be optimal while it crushes others with its restrictiveness in the hopes they relent on trying to form the group they want and have to invite you. boi if thats not some selfish shit right there

[klogaroth]

At the end of the day, no, these headaches won't be mine, so long as I can see all the content and achieve my cosmetic goals in queueable or soloable content, I will continue to do what I've done for two expansions now: pretend M+ doesn't exist.

So it doesn't matter to you is what you're saying. Whatever they do with covenants. In your own words - it doesn't affect you if they make it swappable.

[razorpax]

You won’t be forced to swap

You want to keep me from being 100% optimal because you don’t want to be told you aren’t

[Zogarth]

You fail to understand that what will happen is that you just want get invited if you have the wrong covenant for a specific dungeon or raid. Even if they are locked and 80% don't have that covenant, the group leaders will pick the ones that have it. It is not, and has not for many years, been about if you can do a dungeon, but the fastest way of doing it.

The situation gets even shittier if you do both pvp and pve at a competitive level. There is no way in hell that Blizzard in any way can balance the abilities properly enough for them not to matter. So if you want to do both at even a semi-high level you are pretty much forced into rolling two of the same char, or as I will do, unsub after the first month.

This is legion legendaries all over again. But if it is as it is now, it will actually be worse in the long term.

You seem to misunderstand that any new cog in the machine will be used to exclude people. If you can change it or not. If a spec is bad, you won't be invited to high level content with that spec. If your class is bad you won't be invited to that content. If your covenant is bad, you won't be invited to high level content. There is even instances of some races not being taken (or more accurately, you don't get taken without a specific race).

[Femininity]

You won’t be forced to swap

You want to keep me from being 100% optimal because you don’t want to be told you aren’t

Pretty much this, honesty.

[Omedon]

It is not, and has not for many years, been about if you can do a dungeon, but the fastest way of doing it.

Among PUGs. Which are not the intended way to do M+. It's possible, but clearly not intended.

[Redroniksre]

You won’t be forced to swap

You want to keep me from being 100% optimal because you don’t want to be told you aren’t

Not OP, but i disagree. Not everything has to be hotswappable. I know for a fact if people could swap talents mid fight people would be doing it. My position is, i think min maxxers should be ignored, they make up such a small amount i couldnt care if they even left the game.

Side note. I used to complain about group requirements back in Legion (the classic AoTC normal). The common response by min maxers was "make your own group". Funny how now that they might be affected they suddenly dont like it.

Make your own group.

[Kralljin]

Among PUGs. Which are not the intended way to do M+. It's possible, but clearly not intended.

"Not intended" is a broad statement, there are no actual rewards or benefits within the game for doing it with a guild group.

If you want that guilds / social groups are the way to play the game, then you have to put things into the game that actually reward these types of groups.

Make your own group.

And then? People that want to swap, still can't swap.

I also find it hilarious that you believe every person who suggest to "make your own group" is a min/maxer, this is the common sense response.

[Zogarth]

Among PUGs. Which are not the intended way to do M+. It's possible, but clearly not intended.

What is intended doesn't matter, reality does. I would reckon the vast majority of M+ groups are pugs. I pugged 90% of my groups when I played at the start of BFA and managed to get decently high leveled ones done. Also, i don't see why pugs not being intended having anything to do with covenants. High levels guilds will exclude you too and require a specific covenant for raids based on what is interpreted as the best one for your class/spec at that point in time.

[Echocho]

Well said. The obsessive simmers don't get to decide who is allowed to have an opinion on the subject.

I'm a mythic raider and I for one welcome a system that you're not forced to constantly swap around since that feels exhausting and immersion breaking. I just want to build my character semi-permanently and have to make compromises along the way. If I go full AOE it should mean that I would suck on boss fights.

[Zogarth]

Well said. The obsessive simmers don't get to decide who is allowed to have an opinion on the subject.

I'm a mythic raider and I for one welcome a system that you're not forced to constantly swap around since that feels exhausting and immersion breaking. I just want to build my character semi-permanently and have to make compromises along the way. If I go full AOE it should mean that I would suck on boss fights.

So you would have to make two characters, one for AOE fights and one for single target. Even if you aren't that hardcore, you would make yourself completely ineligible for any kind of high level pvp. Any 3v3 team would run at the sight of a guy focused on aoe.

[razorpax]

Not OP, but i disagree. Not everything has to be hotswappable. I know for a fact if people could swap talents mid fight people would be doing it. My position is, i think min maxxers should be ignored, they make up such a small amount i couldnt care if they even left the game.

Side note. I used to complain about group requirements back in Legion (the classic AoTC normal). The common response by min maxers was "make your own group". Funny how now that they might be affected they suddenly dont like it.

Make your own group.

This isn’t about swapping mid fight
Heck the argument isn’t even about swapping covenants

We just wanna be able to swap the abilities Like talents because that’s what they are
But no because you might get told to swap for a certain dungeon or a boss and instead of saying “no” it’s easier to take the choice away

This is like m+ where BfA launch locked your gear because some ppl made multiple sets because they liked it and because a +18 required it due to the damage.

The change came in and ppl praised it because they didn’t want others to do it even though they WERE NOT EFFECTED. Same thing here

You aren’t forced to swap but no blizzard must protect you

- - - Updated - - -

Well said. The obsessive simmers don't get to decide who is allowed to have an opinion on the subject.

I'm a mythic raider and I for one welcome a system that you're not forced to constantly swap around since that feels exhausting and immersion breaking. I just want to build my character semi-permanently and have to make compromises along the way. If I go full AOE it should mean that I would suck on boss fights.

Get benched

[klaps_05]

Should we have a flexible system where people get to experience ALL content (not 25% of the content), have the ability to create different play-styles with 12 soulbinds and 8 unique abilities OR should people be limited to 25% of the content and create more and more player segregation?

Full flexible system means people who want to min/max can do so and players can make a bad choice as they can always change. People who are casual arent affected by this as their performance is usually hindered by their ability to play the game before covenant additions. People who are just now trying higher levels of raiding or m+ are benefited more by 1. learning how to play at a higher level which is indifferent to covenant and 2. being flexible.

Imagine you are learning X class. You picked Y covenant. Oh no, its the wrong one. Ok, you can change. But then Y covenant gets buffed or once of your other specs gets buffed so Y covenant is actually the best now - enjoy your grind to get back to covenant Y.

Hardcore or casual, covenants have fundamental issues:

1. Signature and class abilities can be used in a million ways in between raids, m+ and pvp, effectively endless opportunities to come up with cool stuff.
2. Blizzard is known to make huge sweeping changes to abilities which means you can be completely screwed based on your own choice or be forced to re-grind to get back to a covenant.
3. A strict covenant commitment means you get to see only 25% of the content. Understand that having X covenant ability in different areas of the game is PART of the content. For example the Venthyr blink - it would be great to see it in all dungeons/raids/pvp and what it can be used for. That exploration, is content.

In the end, as i mentioned before, every spec will have its top covenant. Every top Sub rogue will be only one covenant. So, if we have flexible system - Sub rogues will all be one covenant. If we have locked system, Sub rogues will all be the one covenant. Where is the difference? In a flexible system, you have an opportunity to explore and let the game develop, come up with new stuff in all content. In a locked system, you have access to only 25% of the abilities, soulbinds and perks and have to regrind if you want to change back.

So essentially, casual players would rather do re-grinds to get the right covenants than to have a flexible system? Cause in queue there is always 99 DPS for the DPS spot and 98 of them are the right covenant and get invited, and you arent.

[oldgeezer]

Folks, if you're anxious about Covenants, and it seems that many people are, I suggest you i) join a more agreeable guild or ii) start your own groups. There, easy, right?

[potis]

And it has been repeated before and again and again.

All the content Blizzard cares to balance is completable with anything, with any talents, it comes down to personal knowledge/skill level, call it whatever, yes there are outliers and progression periods and "Community meta" but no, it doesnt work like that.

If you are shit at the game, a covenant choice wont magically make you better.

If you cant complete a 15 that has become completely obsolete by all this power tripping, 5-6 months ago, then nothing changes for you.

Unless you are in a Top 1-5 guild, and maybe in a guild in the top 100 scene, having some competition with another top 100-200 guild on your server, then the term "Balancing" should not exist in your WoW career cause its irrelevant, just play the game.

Outlying choices like Covenants affect literally up to 500 people,including PvP and M+ teams, the rest of us, take whatever the fuck you want already, it isnt a problem.

[Sithalos]

I read the OP twice and I still don't really understand what it's meaning or point is. I guess I shouldn't read forums while slightly drunk.

incoherent babble

Oh, I guess I'm not the only one.

[Echocho]

So you would have to make two characters, one for AOE fights and one for single target.

No, you should be forced to compromise. If you focus 100% on ST or AOE you would suck at the other, a healthy mix of both should be the way to go.

Load outs aren't part of RPGs, that's MOBA or FPS gameplay. Building your character is part of the RPG genre. Swapping should always be possible but not on a fight by fight basis.

- - - Updated - - -

Folks, if you're anxious about Covenants, and it seems that many people are, I suggest you i) join a more agreeable guild or ii) start your own groups. There, easy, right?

That's always the correct decisions if you don't like the way the community is treating you. This idea that everything should be catered to the pug community is a recent thing and frankly a pretty bad one.