"Does it matter to you casuals if we hardcores get fluid covenants?" Yes, here's why.

[Rayzen17]

Exactly why it's nonsense to go through a quest line/grind lasting ~2 weeks, when the covenant you want to join back needs your help right now.
If they needed your help they'd be like, yes, come... no you don't need to bring me "anima" for 2 weeks. You can start by doing these 4 dailies here.. every day, this is beneficial to us!

[Vakir]

Also, with the sheer amount of currencies needed for each tier upgrade for Sanctums, that is also a pretty significant choice in addition to Renown.

It really seems confused and counterproductive as it is now to have gates beyond gates and also some of those gates also semi-permanently gate your fun. But part of me thinks the sudden emphasis on 4 currencies to unlock a damn tier of a sanctum is them prepping the grind for allowing easier swapping.

[goldlock]

Also, with the sheer amount of currencies needed for each tier upgrade for Sanctums, that is also a pretty significant choice in addition to Renown.

It really seems confused and counterproductive as it is now to have gates beyond gates and also some of those gates also semi-permanently gate your fun. But part of me thinks the sudden emphasis on 4 currencies to unlock a damn tier of a sanctum is them prepping the grind for allowing easier swapping.

I think its more a desperate way for them to make people feel unique since blizzard is to afraid to do so via gear and random proc effects failed in bfa.

They want people to feel special but they don't want that to be tied to accomplishments of skill.

[Elias01]

What are you even on about with switching and farming covenants? You know fully well that the issue is with it taking 1-2 weeks to accomplish the switch back.
Once you farm the essences or the gear, you can switch ad-nauseum, so don't talk about stuff like this when it's not even close.
You're either talking about the real issue, or you're just talking bullshit. I think we now know what you're full of.
This is such a stupid hill for you to die on, get a grip man.

Me coming from Night Fae doing dailies, to Venthyr raiding at 8 to 11 and then going Kyrian for M+ won't affect your gameplay or your role playing game.
So we're coming back to this. You do not pay my subscription to tell me how to play the game, nor somebody else's, once you send me the money, we can talk restrictions for me, until then, move along and role-play how much you want in-game for your character.

Yes it does affect other players gameplay. If you thibk that not having restrictions do no affect gameplay of players what want to play RPG game then you are truly delusional. Players always play game way its designed no way they want or around what is fun for them. And no its not player problem. Game devs are responsible for you having fun with game not player.

[Cyranis]

There are 3 gear progression paths in wow. Pvp, Raiding, M+

If someone does 2 or even all three, they should have a gear advantage over someone who does just one.

Likewise. If someone chooses to specialize in one of them instead of being a generalist. Then they should have an advantage in their chosen path.

If johnny chooses to the best tank there has ever been, in mythic+. Then he should be able to do that.

There cannot be a specialist, if everyone is able to switch covenants and be optimal in all three all the time.

The current loadout systems are more than sufficient. Making covenants into another would just over complicate the game.

You have to choose 1.

Sure it's jarring. Sure it sucks that they are ripping the band-aid off like this. But in the end, it's better for the health of the game.

[Rayzen17]

Yes it does affect other players gameplay.

No it doesn't. If someone asks you to switch you can say no. That's on you.

[Vakir]

Making covenants into another would just over complicate the game.

You have to choose 1.

But it's literally like, 2 mediocre passives and a couple of active abilities.

There is literally nothing separating this from a couple of talent rows - that we should've been gaining over the last two expansions anyway!

You had a point about specialists- one I disagreed with, but a point all the same until you said it would OVERCOMPLICATE things. That's just a load of crap.

As far as specialists, your advantage on a chosen path is your ability to get specific stat-weighted gear and upgrading Conduits for a specific spec. Things are in place for if somebody wants to do that without it being too much of an advantage towards generalists.

Sure, that kind of busy work is not as daunting as swapping Covenants, but 1.5-2 weeks just sounds like a fucking chore more than anything that would deter people being a generalist. It would be better for them to just put the swap behind rep or use Renown as a way to throttle it.

[Rayzen17]

There are 3 gear progression paths in wow. Pvp, Raiding, M+

If someone does 2 or even all three, they should have a gear advantage over someone who does just one.

Likewise. If someone chooses to specialize in one of them instead of being a generalist. Then they should have an advantage in their chosen path.

If johnny chooses to the best tank there has ever been, in mythic+. Then he should be able to do that.

There cannot be a specialist, if everyone is able to switch covenants and be optimal in all three all the time.

The current loadout systems are more than sufficient. Making covenants into another would just over complicate the game.

You have to choose 1.

Sure it's jarring. Sure it sucks that they are ripping the band-aid off like this. But in the end, it's better for the health of the game.

Sorry but this line of thinking is just stupid.
If i do raids i want the best setup for raids, after raiding i do M+, i will do my best setup for it because i like to be the best i can be in ALL areas in which i participate in.
Artificially denying me this prevents me from having fun.

You saying i have to chose one, who exactly are you to dictate how i play? Are you paying my sub and i didn't know?
You have zero right to tell me how to play the game.

[Thetruth1400]

So not only will this give a chance to people playing "subpar" covenants to get invited, but also increase chances for less fotm classes to be invited. Sounds like a win-win situation

No. Again, it's just another layer of things that people can deny you for. Instead of people denying you just because of your spec or your covenant choice, they'll also be doing it even more because you're not the right covenant for this specific dungeon. It's fine for the 6-8 specs who meet that criteria of right class, right covenant, right dungeon, but it leaves the other 27-29 spec out since they're now discriminated against because, although they're the right class or covenant usually, they're not for this specific dungeon.

[Elias01]

No it doesn't. If someone asks you to switch you can say no. That's on you.

No it isnt. in moment you allow players to free swap they will force them self into being optimal. They will and will be forced by community to pick Covenant A, B or C. Get bored in process and quit. Restricting you prevents this. You can pick w/e you want and nobady can ask for you to have covenant A, B or C becouse its not in your power to swap into optimal one. There is plently of load out kind of systems we dont need another one.

[Vakir]

Restricting you prevents this. You can pick w/e you want and nobady can ask for you to have covenant A, B or C becouse its not in your power to swap into optimal one.

How is making a hypothetically bad decision that is unchangable (from the POV of the tryhard inviter) somehow better than making one that is?

All you did was make little Timmy extra fucked. People will still be Covenant exclusive. What's more, some groups are going to save that 5th spot for only C Covenant because they need the buff from X dungeon.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

This seems to fit along the lines of making Wow more about skills and less about min-maxing.

It's not the first time that Blizzard tries to force the playerbase's hands against min-maxing. The integration of LFG and then LFR, transmogrification, the removal of Master Loot, weekly caps along with catch-up mechanics, the removal of flying and now Covenants.

These are all related, as they are a way to force players to be agnostic about other players' choices. Ultimately, the choice to force a Covenant over others is Blizzard's way to saying that they do not want their game to be played in a min-maxing fashion. In other words, they are pushing the philosophy that "Skill > 1% DPS gain from a perfect simulated rotation with no human error whatsoever" and they tried to force that idea for a while.

You can't punish players for not adhering to this in LFG and LFR.

You can't investigate players from a quick look since the gear is transmogrified.

You can't keep a player from receiving loot if you believe they're underperforming (or is pugged).

You can't skip content by simply dodging all the enemies you don't want to deal with.

You won't be able to force people to switch covenants as it will be punishing to do so.

I mean, I'm not advocating for or against this. The decision to move forward with their design is a way for them to solidify the idea that they want to detach themselves from the min-maxing mindset. You still will be able to min-max, but it'll be much less noticeable.

[Elias01]

How is making a hypothetically bad decision that is unchangable (from the POV of the tryhard inviter) somehow better than making one that is?

All you did was make little Timmy extra fucked. People will still be Covenant exclusive. What's more, some groups are going to save that 5th spot for only C Covenant because they need the buff from X dungeon.

There are no bad decision in grand scheme of things. Every covenant will have its situations where it will shine and where it will fall. If you think little Jimmy will be excluded from dungeon A of +15 becouse he have nigh fae then no thats not what will happen. Or it will but enyoj your 3-5 hours looking for that optimal guy with optimal covenant.

Look at raiding guilds. Everybody is more than glad they have guy what actualy show up for raid nigh. You really think they will care if you have optimal covenant? No they wont. I will rather run raid with suboptimal guy than spent 5 hours making raid or even make raid at all becouse i am looking for those optimal players.

[Cyranis]

Sorry but this line of thinking is just stupid.
If i do raids i want the best setup for raids, after raiding i do M+, i will do my best setup for it because i like to be the best i can be in ALL areas in which i participate in.
Artificially denying me this prevents me from having fun.

You saying i have to chose one, who exactly are you to dictate how i play? Are you paying my sub and i didn't know?
You have zero right to tell me how to play the game.

Take it up with blizzard. I could really care less what you do. I was just stating what i see their design goals as being.

Ask yourself how you might make that argument with blizzard. I mean seriously. If all you have up your sleeve is .. you'r stupid I want to be optimal in all things. Well i'm very sure you're about to be disappointed with how SL turns out.


They are going to design the game for what is the best overall for everyone that plays it.

[Vakir]

There are no bad decision in grand scheme of things. Every covenant will have its situations where it will shine and where it will fall. If you think little Jimmy will be excluded from dungeon A of +15 becouse he have nigh fae then no thats not what will happen. Or it will but enyoj your 3-5 hours looking for that optimal guy with optimal covenant.

If you believe it's going to be that optimally tuned, I have a bridge I can sell you.

In any event, this is certainly a falsehood on a spec by spec basis. Certain covenant abilities directly favor certain roles. Some even vary wildly by specialization that have the same roles. So it's beyond just looking at damage percentage numbers. What looks like 4 variables might really be 12.

Nobody ever gives an actually good reason in any of these threads to retain this poor decision, which is why I'm convinced it's literally just out of spite.

[Echocho]

I honestly think it is a coping mechanism...

I wouldn't say players envy mythic players but there seems to be almost a extreme hatred towards though who can accomplish and complete harder content in a short time period vs those who linger and struggle even with the simplest content.

Rather then be content with what they have they seem to almost get a malicious joy out of ruining the enjoyment of others by cheering on anything that inconveniences them.

It reminds me of crabs in a bucket pulling each other down.

It's not about what mythic raiders do in the game, it's what they are trying to turn the game into and have been for years often with a lot of success. I'm a mythic raider myself but I would gladly see the game be more like a RPG where you have strengths and weaknesses and have to compromise in how you build your character, not from a boss to boss basis but from a week to week or month to month basis. Load outs have never been a part of traditional RPGs and it seems that Ion have finally realized that so I expect this to be nothing but a testing ground for what's to come in the next expansion.

[Elias01]

If you believe it's going to be that optimally tuned, I have a bridge I can sell you.

In any event, this is certainly a falsehood on a spec by spec basis. Certain covenant abilities directly favor certain roles. Some even vary wildly by specialization that have the same roles. So it's beyond just looking at damage percentage numbers. What looks like 4 variables might really be 12.

Nobody ever gives an actually good reason in any of these threads to retain this poor decision, which is why I'm convinced it's literally just out of spite.

What is optimal tunned for you? Becouse word balance most of the time doesnt mean what players think it means.

[Rayzen17]

No it isnt. in moment you allow players to free swap they will force them self into being optimal. They will and will be forced by community to pick Covenant A, B or C. Get bored in process and quit. Restricting you prevents this. You can pick w/e you want and nobady can ask for you to have covenant A, B or C becouse its not in your power to swap into optimal one. There is plently of load out kind of systems we dont need another one.

How many times have you been asked to change essences this expac?
Me personally in a bit less than 2 years just 1 warrior said to me: "haha, he uses worldvein" and then he kicked me, and that was it, i searched for another party, the end.

So this whole thing where you would be forced to use X or Y covenant is nonsense and just fearmongering.
Also nobody can force you to use a certain covenant if you don't want to. They're not going to come to your house, put a gun to your head and make you change.

[qwerty123456]

...the Horde and Alliance have a constant, tenuous cycle of aggression and hatred. It's literally the main theme of the game. The Covenants are buddies. But again, even if they weren't - lore trumps gameplay. It just also doesn't work in lore, is the point.



My very big problem is that you're making these insinuations about other players on top of spouting things you're actively wrong about. Yes, you can manage a lot of content without going for the absolute most optimal spec and optimal build. But the reality is that people who play something on the lower end that enjoy playing at their best can still do so. They can still try to pick the best possible combination of talents and gear selection to pull as high as they can, and can still feel accomplished with taking a "lower tier" spec to a good place.

Covenants don't just have some abilities better than others - you're applying an ability to 2-4 specs when all of them will have different preferences. A good example is Deathborne is just not the same for Fireball or Frostbolt, filler/activating abilities, as it is for Arcane Blast, a core damage spell during burst periods. The chasm of its use is massive, +10% damage or not. It directly contradicts the entire direction of SL being about restoring class over spec. It is just 1 of 52 spells that work in this way.

Let me put it in fighting game terms. Tier lists do exist - but pros choose to play low tier characters all the time. People win major tournaments with them. Competitive players don't just pick the best character ALL the time, and sometimes it can completely change the dynamic to bring in a dark horse. But people still want to play their best WITH that character. Playing a cookie cutter spec is like playing a high tier character, but Covenant abilities are like forcing you to only use one specific combo on that character and omit 3 others. That's just not going to work the same way against every opponent. Or in this case, every type of content/spec.

Making this about "well clearly the person just wasn't good enough!" is missing the entire point and, more importantly, ignores the single most important piece of the puzzle: The only people that get harmed by this decision are those individuals. OP's position is outright ridiculous. Fixed covenants won't discourage gatekeeping, it will, if anything, do the opposite.

So yeah, that's why I'm pretty god damn pissed at the notion. You're in no position to judge others about this if you don't understand the fundamentals of how and why people min-max. It's not just about tryharding. For some, that is what makes it fun.

The covenants aren't buddies. They are allies against the jailer just like the Horde and Alliance. Lore has it so you lose your covenant abilities if you do another's ritual.

What have I gotten wrong? I specifically asked you if I was right about losing covenant abilities because I hadn't gotten that far yet and you said I was correct.

People can feel accomplishment by instead of using skill and improving their rotations or reaction time finding outs whats op and using that? That's called a false accomplishment. An art thief can feel pride by stealing a work and passing it off as his own but the only accomplishment he has done is tricking people into believing he is better than he is. He didn't actually create a masterpiece.

I'm not saying its terrible to want to feel op and use op skills to pwn noobs but to demand the ability to do so because they cant do it on their own is delusional and not healthy for a person or the game. And whats worse is that if Blizzard has to keep catering to people who demand instant swaps and shit it will just keep tumbling until its out of control. Where does it stop?

No fighting game character is amazing at everything. You have some with reach, others with power, others with easy combos and so on and so on. You asking for instant covenants is the same as asking for a perfect character with no downsides.

While I'm not advocating for fixed covenants it would lessen the "need" for a specific covenant. If nobody is perfect then they cant really bitch about other people either now can they? Just like most of the time people don't completely exclude a class or race from thier bg/raid/etc. Sure some people do but there were also people who would exclude people because they wanted to be the only shaman so if shaman gear would drop they would get it, and others who would exclude people because of a name or just to be a dick and be "funny". Blizzard tried to fix a problem players created because they are dicks by adding personal loot and yet you still have people kicking others if they don't trade it to a buddy or what not. Covenants being excluded isn't a problem with Blizzard but the playerbase which they are trying to curb by making it take time to switch back.

What are you even on about with switching and farming covenants? You know fully well that the issue is with it taking 1-2 weeks to accomplish the switch back.
Once you farm the essences or the gear, you can switch ad-nauseum, so don't talk about stuff like this when it's not even close.
You're either talking about the real issue, or you're just talking bullshit. I think we now know what you're full of.
This is such a stupid hill for you to die on, get a grip man.

Me coming from Night Fae doing dailies, to Venthyr raiding at 8 to 11 and then going Kyrian for M+ won't affect your gameplay or your role playing game.
So we're coming back to this. You do not pay my subscription to tell me how to play the game, nor somebody else's, once you send me the money, we can talk restrictions for me, until then, move along and role-play how much you want in-game for your character.

I'm not telling you how to play the game Blizzard is. And you keep telling me how to play the game lol so lets see you give me my sub money. Atleast I'm actually playing how Blizzard wants me to. And everything you do effects your gameplay. If you spend 10 hours farming and 11 hours raiding/gearing up each week thats 21 hours you could have been using to hone your arena skills and being better at arena. Blizzard shouldn't need to help you out because you wanna do everything. If I wanna do arena, pet battles, raiding, dailies, mythic+, islands, and bgs clearly I wont be as good as I could be if I focused on one or two things but thats my choice. I shouldn't be handheld into a higher pvp rating and given free gear so I can instantly go into mythic raiding. It's your choice if you wanna do all that shit Blizzard doesn't have to give you anything they don't need to give you a choice in covenants just like they don't need to let you instantly swap.

[Elias01]

How many times have you been asked to change essences this expac?
Me personally in a bit less than 2 years just 1 warrior said to me: "haha, he uses worldvein" and then he kicked me, and that was it, i searched for another party, the end.

So this whole thing where you would be forced to use X or Y covenant is nonsense and just fearmongering.
Also nobody can force you to use a certain covenant if you don't want to. They're not going to come to your house, put a gun to your head and make you change.

It depends. People mostly wont tell you to swap essences if you arledy have bis essences so. Since i run bis essences there is not really point telling me to swap essences right? But yes if there would be guy with some *** essences then you would propably wont get even invite or be told to swap. But if you are planing to do like +15 or heroc/mythic raiding then you propably alredy have bis essences so forcing you to get bis essences kinda doesnt make sense.

And also if you didnt notice. Most people use exact same essences for their specs no becouse they want to but becouse they can spec into bis with 1 click. If you would restrict players and locking them into essence pick you would see far more people running around with different type of essence builds and nobady could force you into different one.