How do you control a Toxic Community like World of Warcraft or most other MMOs have?

[Nokster10]

WoW is incredibly toxic. You may be so used to it you don’t realize it, but Ive played every major MMO and there is nothing like in WoW. It’s not like it’s unknown. WoW is legendary for the toxicity of the player base. It’s a meme in the communities of other MMOs how cancerous WoW is.

WoW is incredibly toxic by YOUR standards. By mine, WoW has a low amount of toxicity. Maybe you are just hyper-sensitive to actions that you deem toxic. Also the fact that you were in a designer role for any game doesn't mean jack shit when it comes to how people perceive toxicity.

[Saltysquidoon]

We are comparing other MMORPGs, not other multiplayer games. Again, so what if LOL is more toxic? WoW is still a cesspool and has the worst community of any similar MMORPG.

Why aren't we? I mean both theoretically have the same basic interaction which causes the problem (anonymous online text chat). Literally the only reason you would want to exclude it is because you know other popular online multiplayer games are multiple times worse which ruins the narritive. They're more directly competitive and high stress which directly creates a more toxic environment. 99% of WoW's content is so easy laidback people only bother to look away from youtube or netflix when the group wipes.

Also what mmo is even similar to WoW? There is only FFXIV and the answer to why that community is 'less toxic' is you are literally not allowed to be toxic... In-text chat (people will still go to town on you on discord), all that system does is protect people's feelings it doesn't stop people talking shit.

[Triceron]

WoW is incredibly toxic. You may be so used to it you don’t realize it, but Ive played every major MMO and there is nothing like in WoW. It’s not like it’s unknown. WoW is legendary for the toxicity of the player base. It’s a meme in the communities of other MMOs how cancerous WoW is.

Well it doesn't seem like you're going to elaborate on what you actually think is Toxicity. I honestly hope you will realize how your own design paradigm doesn't relate to toxicity. WoW is very much legendary for toxicity. Yet WoW has always been known for legendary toxicity. 'MOAR DOTS' comes to mind, and that was Vanilla WoW. This wouldn't have been solved by giving Explorers more Explorer content.

As I said before, I don't disagree with the Kevin Jordan design philosophy that you presented here. I just don't think it has anything to do with the problem of trash talking, kicking from group, berating players and such. That all happens regardless of Explorers and Achievers.

I personally think you tunnelvisioned on Design being some core problem and applying it to something that.... is not a design problem whatsoever. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Echocho]

Classic WoW is a pretty unique situation given that it is fed by the population from retail wow. It’s hrs to draw a lot of lessons from that.

The solution here is rather simple: don’t design the game exclusively for achievers. Have a place for everyone. That’s it. That’s all it takes.

Most retail players have left at this point. There's no content and the little content it has is way too easy.

What you're left with is the private server community that's the most toxic one in gaming. It mainly consist of old men that failed in life, jobless and single they blame foreigners for all their failures, racism is everywhere.
The only thing they were ever good at was a extremely easy but time consuming game 15 years ago so they play it over and over again to relive their glory days.
They've lied to each other and themselves for so long about the difficulty of the game that they actually believe it. They think that everything that came after vanilla just got easier and easier when in fact the opposite is true and they could no longer be the best because spending time was no longer the determining factor, skill was.
They blame Blizzard, they blame "retailers" and they hate both with a passion. The only people they hate more are streamer who have been able to get rich off of what they themselves believe themselves to be best at.

Their bitterness have been festering on unmoderated servers for a decade at this point, they're probably the worst customers Blizzard have.

[mortephobia]

why not add a commendation / karma feature (in addition to the raider.io) that shows stats like.

commended / communicative / knowledgeable / helpful. ( with users rating other users in a party, groups of 2+ in a party get 1 vote by their party leader that queued up so as to prevent abuse of the system.)

it should be account based and not character based.

new accounts should have a trial period of 3 months after which their score is reset (this can only happen once per account).

season data should be cleared with a clean slate every season (allowing a person to improve his social skills, and a chance on redemption. and should not be relevant but the data history should remain)

other stats should be:

leaver (% of incomplete m+ dungeons, -karma)

toxic (verbally abusive, - karma)

others negative occurrences that can occur.



for a total karma score.

[Echocho]

Also what mmo is even similar to WoW? There is only FFXIV and the answer to why that community is 'less toxic' is you are literally not allowed to be toxic... In-text chat (people will still go to town on you on discord), all that system does is protect people's feelings it doesn't stop people talking shit.

That's fine though. If people are shitting on a discord somewhere oozing with toxicity and I never have to experience it in game then okay, ignorance is blizz I suppose.
What I've found though is that people are actually friendly and helpful, especially to new and/or uneducated people. It's not uncommon for a dungeon run to hold for a while as the group help the newcomer understand the encounter or even their class.

[cuafpr]

one way is surnames that can't be changed when you transfer / change name. Strict posted guidelines and pay for an army of in-game GM's to monitor the chats 24/7. Not going to happen. Beyond that, unlimited block lists sizes, ability to auto-block some things if said by a user such as anal [ability]. Advanced Chat AI to know when a user is trying to get around built in adult language filters B1tch vs bitch for example.

[Sluvs]

WoW is too competitive.

Toxicity is a symptom of said competition. Sadly.

With addons, ilvl, various difficulties... Player have more than one way to measure themselves against each other.

ofc that is just my opinion, but I find that FF and GW2 games that are significantly less competitive, are way less toxic.

[Dazmalak]

My experience on Classic has been a lot more positive than retail so far as far as socializing. Nice people helping each other out all over.

[kasuke06]

It wouldnt be MY legwork, i would be doing YOUR legwork for you. Take a quick look behind yourself before you backtrack anymore, i would hate for you to fall over...........like your argument just did.

FF and WoW have very similar rules regarding player behavior. One of the main differences is the FF moderation habit of punishing people for statements or behavior made OUTSIDE the game - eg while streaming etc. This is something Blizzard are a bit behind the times with - if it didnt happen in game, they tend not to action it.

It's not a hard and fast rule. it's a "you're not specifically forbidden, but if you are using this thing to be a dick, we'll remove your from everyone else's game." thing.

[astridnicola]

Can't think of anything but "just don't be an A-hole and this won't be a toxic place"

[guisadop]

you don't, you just don't let snowflakes dictate what is and isn't allowed

[Lurker1]

Wow has been toxic for a long time, but it wasnt always like this. I believe that when Name changes and Server transfers began, it gave players the ability to escape their reputation. Is there a way to encourage less toxic behavior or punish toxic players?

Just curious what people think.

Simple answer you can't until there someway to know whos behind the pc being unknown makes people be dickheads online.

[Henako]

Third party damage meters are only superficially outlawed -- XIV mod team has essentially said "we aren't going to do anything about it unless you outright admit to it in game", and I used one for most of the time playing.
Damage meters are essential to high tier gameplay in both WoW and XIV, not a single person I did Savage trials with did not use ACT or others.
You can blame toxicity all you want, but if you're not performing well enough to do savage content, you shouldn't be dragging down those who can and want to.
I won't blame somebody for not pulling TOP DEEPS in roulettes, as it doesn't matter.
But in Savage raids, where there are DPS checks, it absolutely matters.

I don't disagree with you at all, but I feel like you're responding to an argument that I didn't make.

[Tyris Flare]

WoW is incredibly toxic. You may be so used to it you don’t realize it, but Ive played every major MMO and there is nothing like in WoW. It’s not like it’s unknown. WoW is legendary for the toxicity of the player base. It’s a meme in the communities of other MMOs how cancerous WoW is.

This is just completely anecdotal based purely on your experience.

[T-34]

I can only speak as someone who has worked on multiple critically acclaimed AAA games. So maybe that is less impressive than your “I play the game” credentials.

I’m telling you what makes wow different from other MMOs which don’t have this problem, and I’m not alone. I’m echoing the sentiments of Kevin Jordan, one of the three original designers of the game. WoW has uniquely chosen to forego all design paradigms to hyper focus on achiever play styles. No other MMO does this.

Hmmm, and what MMO is the most succesful of all time..... Oh, it is WoW.
Don't think the Blizzard team are idiots. They have made a boatload of money and are still raking in money.

WoW does not have a "toxicity" problem. A small, but vocal toxic subset of players have a self-inflicted problem.
This vocal, toxic subset of players try to shame and guilt-trip the majority to accept that they are bad at the game and carry them through content.
The problem for this toxic subset of players is that the good players they try to coerce in to adhering to their wishes just ignore them and are happily enjoying the game while laughing at their toxic antics.

It is no coincidence that WoW to some extent is designed around the good players. Because Blizzard perfectly well knows that good players by their striving to "beat" the game create a dynamic, vibrant world. The toxic minority of bad players are unable to create anything but drudgery and misery and are of course ignored by Blizzard.

Blizzard is perfectly aware that dynamic and vibrant world is also a world of conflict, but at least it is alive and that attracts players.

[jzhbee]

I don't disagree with you at all, but I feel like you're responding to an argument that I didn't make.

I'm mostly replying to the idea that a way to benchmark yourself against other players is the root of toxicity in MMOs. People can be competitive without shit-talking.
If people let that bring out the worst in them, then they're the problem, not the existence of the meter. I firmly believe that a damage meter should be built into any game with tight, competitive end game content.

[T-34]

WoW is incredibly toxic. You may be so used to it you don’t realize it, but Ive played every major MMO and there is nothing like in WoW. It’s not like it’s unknown. WoW is legendary for the toxicity of the player base. It’s a meme in the communities of other MMOs how cancerous WoW is.

WoW is one of the least toxic games I've ever played as I have a loot of tools in-game to avoid the toxic players.
Other games are doing everything in their power, WoW also does it to some extent, to force me interact with toxic players.

[Protean]

I've had nothing but positive experiences in FFXIV since I started playing a few weeks ago. It's actually been pretty wild. I've seen dungeon runs grind to a halt so the group can explain basic core class concepts to someone new, even. I think something as simple outlawing 3rd party damage meters goes a long way toward keeping people more or less on the same team.

This. There's almost no toxicity in Monster Hunter World either, and when there is the person usually has a damage meter mod installed.

Simplifying combat logs so you can't target specific individuals would go a long way to improve the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmmm, and what MMO is the most succesful of all time..... Oh, it is WoW.
Don't think the Blizzard team are idiots. They have made a boatload of money and are still raking in money.

WoW does not have a "toxicity" problem. A small, but vocal toxic subset of players have a self-inflicted problem.
This vocal, toxic subset of players try to shame and guilt-trip the majority to accept that they are bad at the game and carry them through content.
The problem for this toxic subset of players is that the good players they try to coerce in to adhering to their wishes just ignore them and are happily enjoying the game while laughing at their toxic antics.

It is no coincidence that WoW to some extent is designed around the good players. Because Blizzard perfectly well knows that good players by their striving to "beat" the game create a dynamic, vibrant world. The toxic minority of bad players are unable to create anything but drudgery and misery and are of course ignored by Blizzard.

Blizzard is perfectly aware that dynamic and vibrant world is also a world of conflict, but at least it is alive and that attracts players.

Remind me again which steps Blizzard takes to reduce toxicity?

[Alkizon]

First: technically it's problem being solved of community itself, BUT! organization of system in which community can influence process is already dev's task.
Second: lets assuming at moment, that competitive spirit itself, even if it provokes toxicity, is conditionally as just moral crime, which, if it goes beyond permissible local morality, community can cut down/reduce intensity/moderate - then it turns out that its uncontrolled growth/spread isn't so much root cause, but just characteristic feature, well, or even indicator of situation out of control, disease of local society; fundamentally targeted/provocative system aggravates situation, but isn't directly its source.
And third: WoW community doesn't have any opportunities provided by system for implementation of above, at the same time, just like in any social group (and I already mean this in broad word's sense, in sense of general concept of socialization of both people and other our planet's residents), we aren't talking about forceful solution to issue, but passively restricting access to why people, in essence, have always played "socially oriented games" - to get social activity even if just virtual, and for this latter one should have weight within framework of gameplay, but simply there is nothing like that here (all those old social mechanisms are dancing around min-max "mentality/way of thinking" now)... The end.

We've talked about it a lot of times already, and it all comes down to the same worn-out record. I understand that devs are afraid to give such control to players, since more motivated and organized part of community is inclined, according to all mathematical models, to take over situation and subordinate situation/rest of it to itself "to impose morality/influence" - it was and will be so, but therefore we're talking only about mechanisms of passive influence. Within this framework "life will break through, find its way"... but devs don't believe in it

Alternative is permissiveness, uncontrollability, complete own independence and hence growth/spread of toxicity. History has proven this many times. If you don't need society, then society doesn't need you either. It doesn't care who you are, where you are and why you are, which means, with such attitude, that any joint interaction is perceived as "personal mutual insult" ≈ toxicity. Of course this doesn't happen immediately, but becomes prevailing trend (= norm), "new morality" over time.
- - -
since anger accumulates over time, then for devs... as well as corrupted governments, it's very convenient for this (protect itself morally, stay away or even pretend "good uncle", one who gives and helps, always ready and guarding) to have split in society, internal (or even external) conflict of like national/political/racial type through which its surplus is released, for example, for game it may be conflict of old and new design *pointing at Q&A direction* thus society devours itself, which means it remains exhausted/indifferent to direct problem

ps. Not going to attach links, tired of this already.

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