Patreon to go bust?

[Teleros]

TL;DR Patreon is in deep legal trouble, so I hope anyone who relies on it has a SubscribeStar, LiberaPay or w/e ready in case it all goes tits up.

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So, I've been closely following this legal situation for a while now, and here's the background for those interested. A while back, Patreon kicked comedian/homesteader Owen Benjamin off their platform, like they did to alt media people like Sargon of Akkad, Lauren Southern, etc. However, unlike those people, Owen Benjamin had smart friends who knew the law. In short, Patreon committed several blunders:

1) Tortious interference: meaning they interfered with the contract Owen had with all his patrons. Per Patreon's ToS (and this much IS legal), they're not a party to the contract, they're just a middle man who moves the money from A to B, minus the % they & their payment processors take. Every single patron of Owen's can claim tortious interference due to this, as can Owen.

2) Breaking its own ToS by filing a class action lawsuit against Owen's patrons, when their ToS bars class actions altogether.

3) Not knowing what their own ToS says, because they claim the right to police you on their platform & in related stuff, but kicked Owen off for other stuff.

4) Deceptive practices, up to and including flat-out illegal provisions in the ToS. Eg, if you're a creator & kicked off under the current ToS, then it's the current the ToS that applies in any legal disputes about that act, not the most recent ToS... but Patreon tried to change the rules ex post facto. Furthermore, even if you sign up to eg a website with a dodgy ToS, the legal system routinely deals with so-called unconscionable contracts/clauses/etc basically by saying the unconscionable stuff doesn't count. Finally & as an example of this, this bit of their current Dispute Resolution rules is 100% illegal under California law:

"No class arbitrations or other other grouping of parties is allowed. By agreeing to these terms you are waiving your right to trial by jury or to participate in a class action or representative proceeding; we are also waiving these rights."

You cannot waive your right to trial by jury until you're in court and all that fun stuff. In contracts of adhesion (eg like Patreon's contract with you when you sign up) you also have various consumer rights under California law that Patreon's ToS cannot remove.

5) As an amusing aside, they breached the EU's GDPR by emailing Owen Benjamin a mass of patron details from a completely different creator's patrons. Don't think anything's come of this yet, but we all know how the EU courts positively love slapping huge fines on US tech companies. So even if you don't care about data privacy and stuff, this is yet another vector that Patreon could be attacked over.

Anyway, enough about that stuff. Owen got a few score of his patrons to all take Patreon to arbitration: they each paid $250 (well technically, anyone can pay on their behalf too, funding other people's legal actions is 100% fair & legal etc - see how Hulk Hogan's lawsuit vs Gawker was funded by Peter Thiel), and that's the absolute limit of their costs. All other arbitration fees etc are paid for by Patreon - and we're talking four-figure sums per arbitration at a bare minimum. Even if Patreon go to arbitration and concede everything in the first 30 seconds, they STILL have to pay the better part of $3k per individual filing.

Patreon decided not to settle with Owen for a couple of million, legal stuff happened, and their attempts to use the California courts to stop the arbitrations from proceeding failed miserably. Others are now looking to pile on, including fans of people like Sargon of Akkad & Lauren Southern, so this could very easily bankrupt them. ATM Patreon claims to have 4 million users... every single one of which now has an arbitration claim against them due to their latest ToS (see above) for example. I kind of doubt any of the tech giants are going to swoop in & bail them out. You pay $250, Patreon pays $2,750 (and then any other additional costs, plus lawyers' fees etc), and even if you fail in your claim on day 1, you don't pay anything else... so Patreon bleeds money and goes bust.

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Why am I telling you all the legal stuff? Hey, maybe you want to see Patreon burn, or you're a Patreon creator and want to, I don't know, continue buying groceries or paying the rent. So hey, I figure it's best to get the word out now. Even if Patreon survives all this, diversifying income streams is a sensible thing to do anyway, but frankly given the utterly retarded behaviour of Patreon's lawyers to date, I'm expecting them to crash & burn. Expect all the other big California companies, especially the tech giants, to be watching how this goes so they can try to get out from between Scylla (class action lawsuits) and Charybdis (mass arbitrations).

Oh, and for those wondering, no you can't expect to do this to Twitter, because there's no money involved: you pay nothing to use the site so suck it up. PayPal, eBay, YouTube (channel subs / superchats), stuff like that... that may well be a case of tortious interference and thus actionable.

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Nick Rekieta, a fairly sharp lawyer on YouTube, has done a couple of videos about this so far, and I imagine there will be more in the weeks to come:





And finally, all the court docs can be found here:

https://webapps.sftc.org/ci/CaseInfo...57274A515294E4

[Fincayra]

Patreon is already in debt as it is. They were slowly paying down the debt. They clearly overstepped their role as a payment middle man, and it's coming back to bite them in the ass. They could have stated from the start that they take no sides in any debates and walked away with the money, but now they'll sink with the legal bills.

[JohnBrown1917]

Why are you so happy that a lot of people will be losing their income?

[Volatilis]

Why are you so happy that a lot of people will be losing their income?

yes because patreon is the only site like that....

[Stelio Kontos]

Why are you so happy that a lot of people will be losing their income?

Because justice sometimes requires destroying careers, I mean, that's what folks on your side believe as well, right?

[jonnysensible]

Because justice sometimes requires destroying careers, I mean, that's what folks on your side believe as well, right?

justice for a far right holocaust deniers would be something like this ideally:



not a payout

[Stelio Kontos]

justice for a far right holocaust deniers would be something like this ideally:



not a payout

I actually don't know the case in much detail, is he actually a Holocaust denier, or is he just on the right and must therefore be a Nazi because it's 2020?

If it's the former, he deserves whatever bad consequences he gets, if it's the latter, then no.

I am more referencing Patreon's inconsistent policy.

[jonnysensible]

I actually don't know the case in much detail, is he actually a Holocaust denier, or is he just on the right and must therefore be a Nazi because it's 2020?

You never seem to know much when posting cover and reactionary shit, how convenient

If it's the former, he deserves whatever bad consequences he gets, if it's the latter, then no.

its the former, literally denies the holocaust, says hitler was a great leader.

I am more referencing Patreon's inconsistent policy.

whats the banning people who push the great replacement theory from thier platforms? OH the horror?


The op is fash, this is some garbage from bitchute, and anyone falling for it is a goon

[Stelio Kontos]

You never seem to know much when posting cover and reactionary shit, how convenient

its the former, literally denies the holocaust, says hitler was a great leader.


whats the banning people who push the great replacement theory from thier platforms? OH the horror?


The op is fash, this is some garbage from bitchute, and anyone falling for it is a goon

He deserved to lose his patreon, I'm fine with extremists like nazis, fascists, communists, islamists being de-platformed. I just want it to be evenly applied, which is often not the case.

And you're right, I should have looked into the guy before posting.

[JohnBrown1917]

Because justice sometimes requires destroying careers, I mean, that's what folks on your side believe as well, right?

What justice? Is Patreon a nazi site or something now?

- - - Updated - - -

yes because patreon is the only site like that....

It still takes time to move and you will probably lose subs due to not all members knowing about the new site. But that was not the point, the point is how is this a good thing?

[Thee ANCOM]

noted racist, Owen Benjamin.

- - - Updated - - -

could have sworn patreon updated it's TOS to nip this in the bud, and all the "news" about this is from stormfront knock offs.

[Saltysquidoon]

1. I'm not sure I'd trust a lawyer who has a framed picture of rowboat girlyman on his wall

2. Any time a company gets kicked in the nuts it's a good thing, especially one with such market dominance.

3. Patreon is terminally stupid actively trying to circumvent it's previous attempt to circumvent providing consumers with means of legal redress. Hopefully one day we'll be able to live in a world where US companies don't get to act shocked and appalled when they're forced to actually abide by consumer rights in other countries.

[jonnysensible]

He deserved to lose his patreon, I'm fine with extremists like nazis, fascists, communists, islamists being de-platformed. I just want it to be evenly applied, which is often not the case.

And you're right, I should have looked into the guy before posting.

now why is the OP carrying water for them i wonder? and describes him as a harmless comedian/homesteader? could it be the OP is a massive fucking nazi, wheres that bat gone?


[Infraction]

[Machismo]

So, more woke fascists hate freedom of association?

That's not surprising at all.

[Volatilis]

It still takes time to move and you will probably lose subs due to not all members knowing about the new site. But that was not the point, the point is how is this a good thing?

They had done the hard part, got their name out there. Had millions of paying subscribers they had to do nothing for to get a % of their donations. All they had to do was keep their mouth shut, not take a political stance and keep the site hosting bill paid for and they would have lived happy ever after.

This is example # 354543 of why politics is bad for business and you should stay out of it. Just like celebrities should stay out of politics so it doesnt taint their art.

[Machismo]

-snip-

It's odd how often we find you defending Nazis, and opposing liberty.

- - - Updated - - -

They had done the hard part, got their name out there. Had millions of paying subscribers they had to do nothing for to get a % of their donations. All they had to do was keep their mouth shut, not take a political stance and keep the site hosting bill paid for and they would have lived happy ever after.

This is example # 354543 of why politics is bad for business and you should stay out of it. Just like celebrities should stay out of politics so it doesnt taint their art.

Businesses should be free to not associate with Nazis and fascists.

[Stelio Kontos]

now why is the OP carrying water for them i wonder? and describes him as a harmless comedian/homesteader? could it be the OP is a massive fucking nazi, wheres that bat gone?

Hey, no argument from me. Extremists don't deserve defending. I have no tolerance for anti-Semitism and the like.

[Doctor Amadeus]

This will ultimately go down in flames. This lawsuit is baseless on it's merit. Patreon might be in trouble but it won't be from this

[Volatilis]

Businesses should be free to not associate with Nazis and fascists.

Of course. Thats why you pay for lawyers to make a rock solid ToS. If they do go under it would be from poor legal advice.

[Machismo]

Of course. Thats why you pay for lawyers to make a right solid ToS

That's why you stop defending attacks on freedom of association, and supporting Nazis.

Just a thought.