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  1. #181
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    Let me try to explain to you. The reason people will never decide to use a ground mount if they have the ability to use a flying mount is because it is 210% faster.
    So your argument is people lack self-restraint, so everyone else should suffer because of the people that lack self-restraint.

    That seems incredibly petty and spiteful.
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  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    I have even seen people switch for trash mobs then back to boss talents. How is choosing a talent a choice, if you change them around every fight?
    The irony in this statement is real. How is choosing a talent a choice if you change it all the time? This is sort of like claiming choosing what you're eating isn't really a choice because you change what you eat every meal. What? If I were forced to choose one meal to eat for every meal each week -- would that somehow increase the number of choices I have in that week? Sure, it would sort of make the choice a bit more meaningful since it impacts the rest of the week -- but let's not pretend being forced to make that choice wouldn't suck. Analogy aside, let's be real. If you're trying to argue that not allowing change makes the choice more meaningful -- you're kidding yourself. People just look up the "best" spec on icey veins or wherever and use that. If you make it harder to change that choice, then people will be even MORE fixated on making the "right" choice and will not bother playing around with different things that might work. So, all you do is a) reduce the number of possible choices people can make and b) ensure that even more people all make the exact same choice.

    That aside, back when you could change gear in M+ whenever you wanted -- how many people do you think actually did this on a per trash or trash vs boss or even just per boss basis? I'd wager maybe 5% of the playerbase? I would maybe swap out a legendary on occasion (e.g., swap in a Prydaz if it was a heavy damage fight and we were having trouble). Outside of that, I almost never did. BUT it was cool that I could when I needed to. I could make that choice and it was fun. People who want to optimize around every trash pull do it because it's fun for them. The number of players who would do that because they "have" to is minuscule. This was the very definition of solving a problem that didn't exist.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    So your argument is people lack self-restraint, so everyone else should suffer because of the people that lack self-restraint.

    That seems incredibly petty and spiteful.
    I don't think this argument holds up. You know people can value more than one thing right? What if you value using your time optimally while playing to achieve gearing goals but you ALSO value whatever advantages you perceive ground mounts bring to the game.

    In your scenario I have to prioritize which one I value more and choose even though these could be vastly different aspects of gameplay. Hmmm now that sounds a lot like choosing between a covenant aesthetic I like and the abilities that I like/are optimal....

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Except the meaning of "optimal" isn't set in stone. Right now, optimal just means the absolute best choice per encounter with no restrictions. There is no decision making involved. If it's locked for the Raid, you still have the opportunity to pick "optimal" choices. You just have to prioritize what you feel is optimal overall. This requires actual decision making and balancing pros and cons, not just taking the best path all the time. If there isn't a meaningful choice involved, Blizzard may as well just program the game to automatically change your loadout per encounter automatically giving you the best options each time.
    It also doesn't take player skill into consideration. One talent could be the best if you sim it but the rotation becomes too complex so I'll actually perform better with a different talent.

  5. #185
    Epic! Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    Blizzard try to bring a tiny bring-back of this kind of choice in Shadowlands Covenants. What do we see? People complaining like never before.
    It's called letting the cat out of the bag.
    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    This is sort of like claiming choosing what you're eating isn't really a choice because you change what you eat every meal. What?
    I would argue a better analogy would be sit down at a restaurant for a meal and you're presented with a menu (your talent choices). Except every item on the menu is $0 (because the cost to changing is free). So the question then is are you really making a choice when you make your initial order since if you don't like it you can simply order the next one with no consequences. Choices can't be free from consequence or they lose all meaning and effectively aren't choices anymore imo. There has to be some kind of price, even a small one, for making a poor choice.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by dav5037 View Post
    I would argue a better analogy would be sit down at a restaurant for a meal and you're presented with a menu (your talent choices). Except every item on the menu is $0 (because the cost to changing is free). So the question then is are you really making a choice when you make your initial order since if you don't like it you can simply order the next one with no consequences. Choices can't be free from consequence or they lose all meaning and effectively aren't choices anymore imo. There has to be some kind of price, even a small one, for making a poor choice.
    Of course it's a choice. In that scenario, you would try all the possible options to the extent you wanted to. You would find out what your favorite options were, then you would cycle through them as your mood dictated each time you ate there. The price for making a poor choice is performing poorly and that applies as much when you're forced to only make one choice as it does when you can make as many as you like. The only variable is how harshly it punishes someone who made a mistake.

    If we're to take you analogy all the way through to how the game works now, what would really happen is you would get the menu with $0 on it and then you would pull up Yelp, see which item on the menu is the best and eat that without trying any of the others. That would happen even if every item on the menu was free. If you make each item on the menu cost $100 then this will be even more true.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    Of course it's a choice. In that scenario, you would try all the possible options to the extent you wanted to. You would find out what your favorite options were, then you would cycle through them as your mood dictated each time you ate there. The price for making a poor choice is performing poorly and that applies as much when you're forced to only make one choice as it does when you can make as many as you like. The only variable is how harshly it punishes someone who made a mistake.

    If we're to take you analogy all the way through to how the game works now, what would really happen is you would get the menu with $0 on it and then you would pull up Yelp, see which item on the menu is the best and eat that without trying any of the others. That would happen even if every item on the menu was free. If you make each item on the menu cost $100 then this will be even more true.
    Yeah i concede your probably right in that its just a matter of degree (how harshly it punishes). My personal belief is tilted toward harsher consequences for making the wrong choice since by contrast it makes picking the right one feel more rewarding. However I do understand this isnt how a lot of others feel.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrja View Post
    I just play what i like most. I don't follow the "meta"
    This guy gets it.

    Play how you want. If you want to min max every pull, go for it. If you want to only play your favorite spec, do it.

    If your raid leader is forcing you heal tell him to "fuck off", he doesn't pay your sub fee.

    Personally I'll change talents for some bosses if I remember to, never change my traits or gear though, too much hassle.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    It also doesn't take player skill into consideration. One talent could be the best if you sim it but the rotation becomes too complex so I'll actually perform better with a different talent.
    At the level of play we're talking about, player skill isn't a huge factor. By and large the optimal choice is the optimal choice by simple numbers. The idea here is that people are taking the defacto best choice per encounter simply because there is no reason not to.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Respec is fine. Being forced to have 2-3 of every class you play is not fun though. The new system in Shadowlands is absolute trash. It's a shame becuase the expansion looked like it was going to be fun at first.
    No one is forcing you though.

  12. #192
    I don't understand why you have a problem with ppl enjoying the game.

    I swap gear, talents ,essences and even consumables all the time, even for trash, and yes, even in lfr.

    Not because my guild forces me to do so, but because I like it that way.
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  13. #193
    You know what is great? All these meta slaves are going to cry for months, maybe even years, when SL comes out. I shall feast on their tears.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    At the level of play we're talking about, player skill isn't a huge factor. By and large the optimal choice is the optimal choice by simple numbers. The idea here is that people are taking the defacto best choice per encounter simply because there is no reason not to.
    We're talking about a specific level of play? I thought we were talking about switching talents and specs not being fun.

  15. #195
    Like everything else, there is a nebulous point where your toolkit has so many choices that tweaking it becomes tedious rather than fun. I don't know if we are at that point yet personally, but 8.3 probably gets to the razor's edge between corruptions/gear/essences etc.

    Anyway changing for trash is kind of the silly extreme, but if you aren't changing between mythic bosses (or from raiding to pvp to m+) that's just leaving a lot on the field.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    We're talking about a specific level of play? I thought we were talking about switching talents and specs not being fun.
    We're talking about people switching talents on a per fight basis, sometimes even for trash. This is not typically done by people not actively engaged in progression raiding.

  17. #197
    Warchief Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    So your argument is people lack self-restraint, so everyone else should suffer because of the people that lack self-restraint.

    That seems incredibly petty and spiteful.
    That argument is a little shortsighted. Is not about self restraint. If the game had no flying, or in this case no constant respeccing, it would fundamentally change the game and how people interact with the game.

    EG: the high end guild would have to make more meaningful decisions because they cannot respecc at the drop of a hat. So balancing would be different, we would have a wider range of builds and playstyle too.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I can understand wanting covenant/soulbinds to be flexible. I'm not in that camp but I can see it why people want that and it is clearly a valid point.

    But that argument does not really work because he is advocating for a big change in the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    The irony in this statement is real. How is choosing a talent a choice if you change it all the time? This is sort of like claiming choosing what you're eating isn't really a choice because you change what you eat every meal. What? If I were forced to choose one meal to eat for every meal each week -- would that somehow increase the number of choices I have in that week? Sure, it would sort of make the choice a bit more meaningful since it impacts the rest of the week -- but let's not pretend being forced to make that choice wouldn't suck. Analogy aside, let's be real. If you're trying to argue that not allowing change makes the choice more meaningful -- you're kidding yourself. People just look up the "best" spec on icey veins or wherever and use that. If you make it harder to change that choice, then people will be even MORE fixated on making the "right" choice and will not bother playing around with different things that might work. So, all you do is a) reduce the number of possible choices people can make and b) ensure that even more people all make the exact same choice.

    That aside, back when you could change gear in M+ whenever you wanted -- how many people do you think actually did this on a per trash or trash vs boss or even just per boss basis? I'd wager maybe 5% of the playerbase? I would maybe swap out a legendary on occasion (e.g., swap in a Prydaz if it was a heavy damage fight and we were having trouble). Outside of that, I almost never did. BUT it was cool that I could when I needed to. I could make that choice and it was fun. People who want to optimize around every trash pull do it because it's fun for them. The number of players who would do that because they "have" to is minuscule. This was the very definition of solving a problem that didn't exist.
    Well, the analogy does not really work because there is not a optimal meal, but there is a optimal pick for each boss in the raid.

    When you have all choices available to you at all times, you have none because you will always pick the most optimal one.

    I think that is what he is trying to get across.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleDuck View Post
    I don't understand why you have a problem with ppl enjoying the game.

    I swap gear, talents ,essences and even consumables all the time, even for trash, and yes, even in lfr.

    Not because my guild forces me to do so, but because I like it that way.
    and now you will also be able to swap soulbinds and conduits...

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeons View Post
    You know what is great? All these meta slaves are going to cry for months, maybe even years, when SL comes out. I shall feast on their tears.
    Ohh you just said it!
    Here is the king of the internet, ladies and gentlemen, whose only enjoyment is the suffering of others! Nicely done! Go pat yourself on the back!

    OT:
    this is a GROUP based game. Solo content is piss-easy, doesn't worth mentioning.
    Dungeons, Raids, M+, PvP are all GROUP content - and you just fk with YOUR buddies if you are suboptimal.
    Want to "have fun" with your garbage build? Maybe your friends are the same and "play what you like" - OK, then enjoy your 1400 rating, +7 max in M+ and kicked from pug raids.

    Trying to make your own group? Isn't that selfish to invite other people to carry you?
    Is this all about? You don't want to do your research, so others (who did!) can carry you and get your REWARD FOR NOTHING?

    GG

  20. #200
    I don't like changing specs that much. But definately changing gear is a great thing in the game. It took such a big part away from M+ when they disabled gear swapping inside a dungeon. Now Legion legendaries made it hilariously overpowered compared to people who didn't. But it was fun. Same with other gear slots.

    BFA had almost 0 gear swapping outside last patch when you had your inventory full of differently traited azerite pieces because reforging them was a no go. Which was a bad system.

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