Constantly switching spec/talents/trinkets is not fun?

[Echocho]

I switch specs/talents/etc all the time, multiple times a day usually.

If I'm not allowed to do that in Shadowlands I'll just play another game that lets me have fun.

Are there other MMORPGs that let you do that? I'm trying to come up with one but memory fails me

[Lolites]

You are not just slow, you are slower than my old alliance guild where the raid leader doesnt even read tactics and they try to six heal encounters because people die.

who gives a fuck? we progres, we have fun, its not like there is any reason to rush, we are adults with work and family life, we dont need to boost our ego by clearing it faster than someone else...

[Your Mommy]

Switching specs is totes fine, having to switch talents and trinkets for each fight is an understandable complaint

[Popokolara]

who gives a fuck? we progres, we have fun, its not like there is any reason to rush, we are adults with work and family life, we dont need to boost our ego by clearing it faster than someone else...

Its not about ego boost you mentioned clear speed to make an argument. now you go all, i dont care we can do faster but choose not to yada yada.

[Lolites]

Hey guys lets balance around those that dont use the tuning of balancing !gulp!

if you think only mythic raiders care about balancing you need medical help...

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Its not about ego boost you mentioned clear speed to make an argument. now you go all, i dont care we can do faster but choose not to yada yada.

i mentioned clear speed, now embrace yourself bcs this might bee too much for you to handle, bcs i reacted to someone talking about clear speed!
i know, wild concept, sticking to the topic when commenting to something, most people (judging by your comments you too) just jump to whatever they think will give them more edge in argument, even if its something completely unrelated, but thats not how arguments work, at least not among reasonable people...
whatever, i see now its pointless arguing with you, have a nice day and enjoy shadowlands with locked covenant, im sure i will :P

[KrayZ33]

Lets play a game whenever you say something that is not true or answer to a comment that was never made you slap yourself.

He said that you restrict him with your prefered design and then that you do not explain exactly what fun means.

He did not say you arent having fun.he is implying your idea of fun is a low maturity placebo effect.

You may proceed to slapping.

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How about you learn to read first? Honestly, just learn to read first. Then you'd know you are talking out of your ass.

Here - I'll point it out directly to you

Sorry but we're not seeing eye to eye on this, your arbitrary placed restrictions do not make the game more fun.

It does, for "us". It's not arbitrary, it's a specifically placed restriction with a purpose, a purpose that was explained several times already.
So, does it make the game more fun or not? Or does it not make the game more fun for "him" because he doesn't understand what we get out of it?

I don't even know what's that supposed to mean. Some advice: You gotta stop this edgy 14 year old shit of acting like your opinion must be some kind of objective reality. You think it makes you look strong, but it makes you look insecure and incapable of understanding the world around you.

How my character exists in relation to the world and other characters matters. That's a huge part of almost any game, but its especially an important part of an MMO. Jesus Christ dude, do you go out to eat with people and when they order something you dislike you go on an endless, obnoxious rant about how your tastes are objectively better than theirs?

You can repeat yourself another 20-30 times, he won't get your point.

The concept of a limit is alien to him.
He doesn't understand that there can be fun to have rules or limits you have to overcome. And that this fun is also determined by having the playerbase follow the same limits and rules.

He and other people have all the right to dislike the system by all means, but there is no reason to be dense_af when it comes to realizing that people prefer different things, and even less reason to start belittling preferences and another player's perception of a game mechanic or customization option

So where are we not *exactly* explaining what we find fun and how it would enhance our experience?
This is just quoting 2 posts, when there have been like 20 by now that explain the very same situation with new examples and ways to describe it.
Start to realize that you are just screaming "REEEEEEE THEY CAN'T EVEN EXPLAIN IT" when we actually do, you just don't want it to be true. Or you disagree, whatever.
You keep trying to argue with facts when there are none.

And I can even point out the times where he started to belittle a different opinion by making fun of it.
And I can also point up a multitude of posts where we say that we UNDERSTAND that he doesn't get the same benefit out of it and that we "restrict" his preferable playstyle. So what do you want? What do you want to tell us?
You shouldn't "suffere" because of us? Well, I don't see how I should "suffer" because of you.
This is a point A or point B decision for the devs. One party gets the finger, the other gets what they want. There is no middle ground in that regard. Or rather, the "middle ground" is already in place. You get to change Covenants, but you have to do something for it.

[Popokolara]

if you think only mythic raiders care about balancing you need medical help...

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i mentioned clear speed, now embrace yourself bcs this might bee too much for you to handle, bcs i reacted to someone talking about clear speed!
i know, wild concept, sticking to the topic when commenting to something, most people (judging by your comments you too) just jump to whatever they think will give them more edge in argument, even if its something completely unrelated, but thats not how arguments work, at least not among reasonable people...
whatever, i see now its pointless arguing with you, have a nice day and enjoy shadowlands with locked covenant, im sure i will :P

Depends what you mean. And i did not say only they care. I answered to a comment saying we should ignore them.
Can all you people stop answering to things that were never said? its really tiring.

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How about you learn to read first? Honestly, just learn to read first. Then you'd know you are talking out of your ass.

Here - I'll point it out directly to you



It does, for "us". It's not arbitrary, it's a specifically placed restriction with a purpose, a purpose that was explained several times already.
So, does it make the game more fun or not? Or does it not make the game more fun for "him" because he doesn't understand what we get out of it?





So where are we not *exactly* explaining what we find fun and how it would enhance our experience?
This is just quoting 2 posts, when there have been like 20 by now that explain the very same situation with new examples and ways to describe it.
Start to realize that you are just screaming "REEEEEEE THEY CAN'T EVEN EXPLAIN IT" when we actually do, you just don't want it to be true. Or you disagree, whatever.
You keep trying to argue with facts when there are none.

And I can even point out the times where he started to belittle a different opinion by making fun of it.
And I can also point up a multitude of posts where we say that we UNDERSTAND that he doesn't get the same benefit out of it and that we "restrict" his preferable playstyle. So what do you want? What do you want to tell us?
You shouldn't "suffere" because of us? Well, I don't see how I should "suffer" because of you.
This is a point A or point B decision for the devs. One party gets the finger, the other gets what they want. There is no middle ground in that regard. Or rather, the "middle ground" is already in place. You get to change Covenants, but you have to do something for it.

To make sure i understand your character being unique buildwise compared to other characters is one source of fun correct?
and second is overcoming the limitations that exist for a grp so again comparing, and one of those limitations is not being able to freely optimise yes?

[KrayZ33]

To make sure i understand your character being unique buildwise compared to other characters is one source of fun correct?

Correct. Not necessarily "unique to other characters", but to further develop my character into a direction I can't "get out of" in an instant.
"I decided to pick this - I made a choice - I will see this to the end, it's something I have to deal with and so do others. No one gets to pick only the cherry"
etc.

and second is overcoming the limitations that exist for a grp so again comparing, and one of those limitations is not being able to freely optimise yes?

Having fun with working what you currently have avaiable, trying to find the solution with your abilities, without being able to switch around to solve the problem in an instant.
Like... "The Guard can be bribed, give him 50 coins" - "I don't have that, I and my people can see no value in material things" - "Well, then you can't enter!" - "... (we'll see about that)" and the players see what they can do and play out their strengths.
Obviously, in WoW this is more combat related but that is the essence of it.

"We can't AoE kill the adds fast enough." "Well, but I can CC them"
or
"It would be nice to have a way to damage the adds before they come out of their cages, since our AoE is lacking" - "I could use my Kyrian trap which allows my arrows to ignore line of sight, so my aim is not obstructed."

While a different group with different Covenant, classes and "insert this feature here" has to do the same encounter with whatever is available to them.
The point is obviously, that all combinations are (or should be) able to clear the encounter, but in different ways. That is something Blizzard has to balance properly and obviously there are limits to them aswell.

If everyone would switch around to the Kyrian trap in this situation, since everyone agrees it's the best possible way to deal with it, it will obviously be a different experience, wouldn't it?

If you run the dungeon again with a different hunter and that hunter can swap talents like that, the hunter will always/likely use the best solution - or ask him to do that, you will always be able to ignore the adds for example.
If you run the dungeon again with a Venthyr Hunter and that hunter is stuck being Venthyr, he can't do tha - you won't request it either, he is better in ST so you have to use a different solution.

1. Yes, there is FUN in using the best possible solution whenever possible and use your brain to find the best talent-combination that would yield the highest DPS
2. BUT there is also FUN in not being able to do that and work with what you have and find a solution to defeat the boss with limits and rules in place.

You are in Group 1.
I'm in Group 2.

They don't mix well.

And even if you go by "but you can choose however you want to play or find players that think the same". YES. You are 100% correct.
But at the same time, the way these features are included in the game and in the story and the mechanics are presented to you in this game have meaning too.
If the game tells me to now worry about what I'm going to choose, I'm not going to worry.
If the game tells me I should make my decision carefully, I'll do so etc.

[munkeyinorbit]

Sounds to me like you could argue for flying mounts with the argument "If you don't like flying mounts, just use your ground mount LOL". Same logic.

What's the problem here? If you don't want to switch around talents and gear don't. I sure as hell don't and I don't care if someone else does. In the end if the boss dies we all win. It is exactly just like flying. If you hate it so much don't use it. Use your ground mounts instead. It is that simple. Relying on Blizzard to lock things away because YOU think people are doing it wrong is the height of toxicity.

[Popokolara]

Correct. Not necessarily "unique to other characters", but to further develop my character into a direction I can't "get out of" in an instant.
"I decided to pick this - I made a choice - I will see this to the end, it's something I have to deal with and so do others. No one gets to pick only the cherry"
etc.



Having fun with working what you currently have avaiable, trying to find the solution with your abilities, without being able to switch around to solve the problem in an instant.
Like... "The Guard can be bribed, give him 50 coins" - "I don't have that, I and my people can see no value in material things" - "Well, then you can't enter!" - "... (we'll see about that)" and the players see what they can do and play out their strengths.
Obviously, in WoW this is more combat related but that is the essence of it.

"We can't AoE kill the adds fast enough." "Well, but I can CC them"
or
"It would be nice to have a way to damage the adds before they come out of their cages, since our AoE is lacking" - "I could use my Kyrian trap which allows my arrows to ignore line of sight, so my aim is not obstructed."

While a different group with different Covenant, classes and "insert this feature here" has to do the same encounter with what is available to them.
The point is obviously, that all combinations are (or should be) able to clear the encounter, but in different ways. That is something Blizzard has to balance properly and obviously there are limits to them aswell.

i think the aims are admirable but the specific path to them: characters not being all same build, is....more indicative of a character flaw. Sorry but really, because daddy blizzard forced me to not be able to change?
You achieve things because you overcome a challenge not because you have pink robes and i have green. You are unique because you are you, not because people are tangled on a treadmill of timed lapses.

Wow combat does not fit rp into it. It simply does not. Well mythic raiding without serious nerfs at least.
If its not mythic sure go ahead knock yourself out.

Now why covenants actually are NEEDED for the way you want to do things?
Because
yes?
Because it FORCES people to do somethign you personally like. I played tbc and each time we adjusted our tools to the situation. How many times i mind controlled a mob and let it die because we lacked CC and tank would die taking them all on. But that era is over man. If i do not want to juggle scarse tools and bad group setup i shouldnt end up doing it because it becomes literally impossible to select the right tools. It goes beyond an extra challenge to forced gameplay. Especially when its all a plan for:

Little timmy is a noob BUT he has the aoe covenant you need him so you take him
Litle timmy is a noob but he has the dungeon special buff covenant, you need him so you take him
Little timmy is a noob but he will be able to deal with a mechanic a lot easier than you and then feel useful and unique and cool because maybe he is closing the distance.

This is insulting because it treats people like children and you guys applaud it?rely on it?

[munkeyinorbit]

The game shouldn't be balanced around mythic raiders. They are a minority

It isn't.The content for the majority isn't balanced around being optimal. It's balanced around being good enough. You don't need to be optimal to clear heroic. If you don't want to change talents per boss then that is ok. It won't be the reason you fail. Mechanics is what will kill you.

[KrayZ33]

i think the aims are admirable but the specific path to them: characters not being all same build, is....more indicative of a character flaw. Sorry but really, yes. Snowflake cause i have other talents? for real? Or because daddy blizzard forced me to not be able to change?
You achieve things because you overcome a challenge not because you have pink robes and i have green. You are unique because you are you, not because people are tangled on a treadmill of timed lapses.
.

See? What's the deal with the "Snowflake" about? Stop being condescending, for what reason are you using these statements other than getting on peoples nerves?

Did you pick your class for example because of how it would perform in Mythic this addon?
Where exactly does WoW tell you that this is how the game is supposed to be played? Like, what makes you think that this is the correct way to enjoy the game for example?

Why did you pick your class/character? What made you choose it?

[Popokolara]

It isn't.The content for the majority isn't balanced around being optimal. It's balanced around being good enough. You don't need to be optimal to clear heroic. If you don't want to change talents per boss then that is ok. It won't be the reason you fail. Mechanics is what will kill you.

I imagined balancing means the power and potential of the classes when played to their max. Tuning is dungeon numerical challenge, no?

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See? What's the deal with the "Snowflake" about? Stop being condescending, for what reason are you using these statements other than getting on peoples nerves?

Did you pick your class for example because of how it would perform in Mythic this addon?
Where exactly does WoW tell you that this is how the game is supposed to be played? Like, what makes you think that this is the correct way to enjoy the game for example?

Why did you pick your class/character? What made you choose it?

I used the term because your motivation is not just overcoming a challenge but entering a very specific scenario that is not about the challenge at ALL , but rather a specific way to deal with a situation, to simulate a specific feeling you enjoy, and you feel its fine for this to affect actual gameplay on the hard difficulty, whilst the opposite would not effect you. Its entitlement. And trying to create a noble feeling in an insecure twisted way.

Its not that there is a right way or wrong to play a game. But there are wrong ways to go about things, entitlement is one.


I picked my class because i love how it plays around achieving what i think is difficulty and trying to be as good at it as i can - and sometimes i really suck. I dont negatively affect your way.

I want to do m+ properly man. I cant because you like enforcing on everyone using non standard tools to do basic things? Its fine if you enjoy it, but its foolish to not realise what you are supporting.

IF you rely so much on othes doing your own pesonal thing you need to do a self check.
BTW i play disco, not a great m+ choice. I dont play just meta and i accept non meta people. But i want to know they are trying their best or at least carry their weight and not ruining the run.
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Having fun with working what you currently have avaiable, trying to find the solution with your abilities, without being able to switch around to solve the problem in an instant.

You dont solve problems in an instant. You do not unless you do piss easy content. So what the hell are you talking about?

[schwarzkopf]

People complain about non existent grind or non existent time gates.... doesn't matter which way things are, there will be people complaining and wanting the other.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

I just play what i like most. I don't follow the "meta"

Same here, Casual life is the best way to enjoy games. You never get stressed or worked up. Take a page from that book OP

[KrayZ33]

I imagined balancing means the power and potential of the classes when played to their max. Tuning is dungeon numerical challenge, no?

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I used the term because your motivation is not just overcoming a challenge but entering a very specific scenario that is not about the challenge at ALL , but rather a specific way to deal with a situation, to simulate a specific feeling you enjoy, and you feel its fine for this to affect actual gameplay on the hard difficulty, whilst the opposite would not effect you. Its entitlement. And trying to create a noble feeling in an insecure twisted way.

Its not that there is a right way or wrong to play a game. But there are wrong ways to go about things, entitlement is one.


I picked my class because i love how it plays around achieving what i think is difficulty and trying to be as good at it as i can - and sometimes i really suck. I dont negatively affect your way.

I want to do m+ properly man. I cant because you like enforcing on everyone using non standard tools to do basic things? Its fine if you enjoy it, but its foolish to not realise what you are supporting.

IF you rely so much on othes doing your own pesonal thing you need to do a self check.

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You dont solve problems in an instant. You do not unless you do piss easy content. So what the hell are you talking about?

Well, since you just disagree and won't understand, I'll just leave it at that. I really can't bother to repeat myself over and over just because you don't understand it. I mean, at some point there it's just wasted effort to try to convince the other party, isn't it?
Whatever floats your boat, mine floats higher with changes like these, though luck if your ship sinks... or at least, that you *believe* it will think, because it won't.

You can throw out buzzwords all you like. But I'm not entitled to anything (if I am, so are you at least) -or- I'm not a snowflake because I prefer different things than you.
And how the heck is it "foolish" to support something I consider to be fun. If it's fine to enjoy it, it should be fine to support it. Lol.
I'm not supporting this "out of spite" - like you may believe.
A million games before WoW used mechanic and features like these, and they've done well or are just fine enough.
And at no point in time has it been universally accepted to be the correct thing to swap talents whenever or whatever mechanic/feature comes close to it. Neither has it been universally accepted to be the wrong thing.


So whatever you consider wrong or write is just your opinion. So is mine. Why do we need to discuss this further? We are going from a standpoint that this is something some players like and some other players dislike. You are the one trying to get the clear "winner" out of it when that winner could never be determined truthfully.
There is no correct or wrong. You won't accept that, I get it.

Wether Blizz decides to do A or B - we can't do more than making our standpoint clear, we've done so by now.
I agree with everything Ion said in his interview I posted earlier.

Have a nice remaining day.

[Popokolara]

Well, since you just disagree and won't understand, I'll just leave it at that. I really can't bother to repeat myself over and over just because you don't understand it.
Whatever floats your boat, mine floats higher with changes like these, though luck if your ship sinks... or at least, that you *believe* it will think, because it won't.

You can throw out buzzwords all you like. But I'm not entitled to anything or I'm not a snowflake because I prefer different things than you.
And how the heck is it "foolish" to support something I consider to be fun. If it's fine to enjoy it, it should be fine to support it. Lol.
A million games before WoW used mechanic and features like these, and they've done well or are just fine enough.

Ok. Did i say ur problem is you enjoy something? No i didnt did i? Then why the hell did you say it? Can you for fuck sake not blatanly lie and take out of context?

you support a system that creates a problem. Yet you can have your fun even if covenants didnt create this problem. That has been the point since you were arguing with vegetta.
If your fun relies on other people doing things YOUR way through a cooldown enforced by the game design you have issues you need to resolve. thats the whole point repeated over and over.

[Ragnarohk]

Lets play a game whenever you say something that is not true or answer to a comment that was never made you slap yourself.

He said that you restrict him with your prefered design and then that you do not explain exactly what fun means.

He did not say you arent having fun.he is implying your idea of fun is a low maturity placebo effect.

You may proceed to slapping.

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Hey guys lets balance around those that dont use the tuning of balancing !gulp!

Maybe I used the word incorrectly. I meant more something in the lines of:

Gameplay desitions shouldn't be taken to cater apecifocally for that group. Look at the outcry over Permanent Covenants. It's the players at competitive content that want it changed. Designing stuff with balance in mind is a conatraint.

[Popokolara]

Maybe I used the word incorrectly. I meant more something in the lines of:

Gameplay desitions shouldn't be taken to cater apecifocally for that group. Look at the outcry over Permanent Covenants. It's the players at competitive content that want it changed. Designing stuff with balance in mind is a conatraint.

i always thought its fine to design player power with mythic difficulty in mind, and then make the other difficulties easier while also easing them a bit towards safety (even easier). Not sure thats correct tho.

[KrayZ33]

Ok. Did i say ur problem is you enjoy something? No i didnt did i? Then why the hell did you say it? Can you for fuck sake not blatanly lie and take out of context?

you support a system that creates a problem. Yet you can have your fun even if covenants didnt create this problem. That has been the point since you were arguing with vegetta.
If your fun relies on other people doing things YOUR way through a cooldown enforced by the game design you have issues you need to resolve. thats the whole point repeated over and over.

... can't you just leave it be?

If I go to the extreme:
Your fun relies on me not having fun with WoW-RPG mechanics, that's an issue that needs to be resolved too. That's the point that has been repeated over and over.
I can not have my fun with switcharoo Covenants.

Why do you still not understand? Even though multiple people have explained why they won't have fun with switcheroo Covenants

Ok. Did i say ur problem is you enjoy something? No i didnt did i? Then why the hell did you say it? Can you for fuck sake not blatanly lie and take out of context?

Did I say you did? Where.Can you please not make stuff up? I've noticed this for quite a while now. You keep saying I'm saying things you didn't say ... or even before, what other said. But that has never actually been the case. I'm not putting things out of context either, if they are connected to each other, I quote and adress the whole thing.
If I did I'm sorry - but, yeah... where?


"And how the heck is it "foolish" to support something I consider to be fun. If it's fine to enjoy it, it should be fine to support it. Lol."


That part? How about using the context. You said it's okay to like the system (which is me having fun with it) but it's foolish to support it.
I'm saying it's not foolish to support something I consider fun. It's what I *should* do. It would be foolish to not do that because how can I enjoy these systems if there is no support for it.