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  1. #41
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    And where do you think mammals come from?
    I already explained away that myth.

    Mammals did not evolve from Reptiles but Synapsids. First came Amniotes which split into two different branches. One would evolve into Reptiles and the other evolved into Synapsids.
    Last edited by Nathreim; 2020-08-17 at 05:44 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    I already explained away that myth.

    Mammals did not evolve from Reptiles but Synapsids. First came Amniotes which split into two different branches. One would evolve into Reptiles and the other evolved into Synapsids.
    Yeah but that stills means reptiles came first and eventually they evolved into mammals. Just not directly.

    So I don't see why this couldn't have happened with the Trolls?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Torga is alive, you litterally help him reincarnate. As for Kimbul, you personally help restore his temple and add a shrine in Zuldazar. Besides, none of that is really important. Half of their Loa aren't reptiles, no matter how major or minor.

    ... Also, why did you consider it important that Hireek is dead, and not Rezan?
    Hireek is in shadowlands, so he is dead. Spirit of Rezan is in Vol'Jin, so he is not truly dead.

    And for other loas - Drakkari favour Northrend animal loa. Gurubashi - jungle animal loa. Amani - forest animal loa. Zandalari as "main tribe" live with their loa. And their most favoured loa are reptiles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    I already explained away that myth.

    Mammals did not evolve from Reptiles but Synapsids. First came Amniotes which split into two different branches. One would evolve into Reptiles and the other evolved into Synapsids.
    That was in Earth and not in Azeroth. There it can be that evolution thing in WoW is titan influence at that races. One of things, in a row with 2hands and 2 feets is boobs, milk and speach.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    H
    That was in Earth and not in Azeroth. There it can be that evolution thing in WoW is titan influence at that races. One of things, in a row with 2hands and 2 feets is boobs, milk and speach.
    Anything goes on azeroth, a piece of rock has the same chances of being a troll ancestor.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    And major ones? Rezan, Gonk, Paku, Akunda, Jani, Torkali.
    Only one of those is a reptile.

  6. #46
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Yeah but that stills means reptiles came first and eventually they evolved into mammals. Just not directly.

    So I don't see why this couldn't have happened with the Trolls?
    No they didn't thats not how evolutionary trees work. Synapsids split from Amniotes not Reptiles. Also both evolved around the same time 310-320 million years ago.

    Mammals and Reptiles share a common ancestor but thats it. Or to think of it another way you are a direct descendant of your great great grandparents but not your great great granduncle.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Spirit of Rezan is in Vol'Jin, so he is not truly dead.
    This may have been changed in the beta, apparently Rezan is no longer mentionned.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    Maybe trolls are monotremes? They just haven't told anyone else they lay eggs yet xD
    Platypus lay eggs are are mammals for example. Convergent evolution could also have taken place.
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  9. #49
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Probably also a category error to think of any of the sentient beings on Azeroth as purely mammalian or reptilian, as those are taxonomies that really only apply to Earth. Azeroth's Humans are, after all, former robotic/golem constructs of metal or rock who were synthesized into organic biomass via a curse from protoplasmic alien invaders. Trolls could well come from a more reptilian ancestor for all we know, one that was hyper-evolved and/or mutated by the Well of Eternity into having mammalian traits but kept some of its original reptilian traits as well (such as scales or regeneration). Azeroth's evolutionary tables are powered by inscrutable magic so anything is really possible.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Probably also a category error to think of any of the sentient beings on Azeroth as purely mammalian or reptilian, as those are taxonomies that really only apply to Earth. Azeroth's Humans are, after all, former robotic/golem constructs of metal or rock who were synthesized into organic biomass via a curse from protoplasmic alien invaders. Trolls could well come from a more reptilian ancestor for all we know, one that was hyper-evolved and/or mutated by the Well of Eternity into having mammalian traits but kept some of its original reptilian traits as well (such as scales or regeneration). Azeroth's evolutionary tables are powered by inscrutable magic so anything is really possible.
    Exactly my thought.
    There are so many weird examples, like harpies. They lay eggs but have what we could classify as breasts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Platypus lay eggs are are mammals for example. Convergent evolution could also have taken place.
    Platypus and echidnas are monotremes so yes :P

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    Platypus and echidnas are monotremes so yes :P
    Funny thing about Orcs is that they evolved from Ogres who evolved from Gronn. It is interesting to see the different ways the races have evolved.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    Maybe trolls are monotremes? They just haven't told anyone else they lay eggs yet xD
    Pretty sure all humanoids in the warcraft universe spawn from spores floating in the air. You never see anyone pregnant, and I have see fully grown ones appear out of nowhere.

    Also explains the rapid repopulation of Alliance/Horde after they've fought 1.2 Bajillion wars.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Its a blessing from the Loa not a natural ability Vol'jin's book explains it in detail. Thats why some Trolls can regenerate limbs and major organs while others cant regenerate even simple wounds.
    It's actually a point that's up for interpretation, since most info on it contradict each other. That's why I go with the idea of a natural ability that can be blocked or enhanced by loa.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Its a blessing from the Loa not a natural ability Vol'jin's book explains it in detail. Thats why some Trolls can regenerate limbs and major organs while others cant regenerate even simple wounds.
    I highly recommend reading up on the latest lore before you try to correct someone else lmao.

    Here's a full collection of all the canon troll regeneration lore, including examples, weaknesses and retcons and sources for everything.

    TL;DR: It's fully and completely natural and has been for the majority of WoW's existence, the loa have nothing to do with trolls having regenerative powers, unless they strip them away from individual trolls like Gri'lek (and possibly Zul'jin).

    The whole "it's from the loa" was mentioned twice in Cataclysm, only to be retconned again in Cataclysm, retconned further in MoP (Shadows of the Horde), retconned even more in Legion (Chronicle V.1) and retconned once again in BfA (Jani quest in Zuldazar, which is an actual loa saying how trolls naturally regenerate lmao).

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    What is the source on that?
    Rofl "source". Just look at em. Its literally the same model.
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  16. #56
    Kek, people discussing real evolution in a game where divine creation is canon and magic shaped the evolution of half of the major races.
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  17. #57
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goof View Post
    I highly recommend reading up on the latest lore before you try to correct someone else lmao.

    Here's a full collection of all the canon troll regeneration lore, including examples, weaknesses and retcons and sources for everything.

    TL;DR: It's fully and completely natural and has been for the majority of WoW's existence, the loa have nothing to do with trolls having regenerative powers, unless they strip them away from individual trolls like Gri'lek (and possibly Zul'jin).

    The whole "it's from the loa" was mentioned twice in Cataclysm, only to be retconned again in Cataclysm, retconned further in MoP (Shadows of the Horde), retconned even more in Legion (Chronicle V.1) and retconned once again in BfA (Jani quest in Zuldazar, which is an actual loa saying how trolls naturally regenerate lmao).
    Yet in Shadows Rising Apari the Zandalari priestess antagonist cannot regenerate her leg. She had completely lost the ability since Shadra died. This is in line with what we see with Rastakhan's rapid aging after the death of Rezan.

    Shadows of the Horde actually reinforced the blessing side as Vol'jin was incapable of regenerating LONG after the poison was gone. He spent months trying to heal and only regained his ability after speaking with the Loa. The only thing it invalidates is the limit on fingers and toes as major organs are mentioned.

    The only time Jani mentions regeneration is in https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Great_Hat_Robbery and he says "One Big Mon named Tik'su be the worst of all. He charge arms and legs outright and it even take trolls some time to regrow them parts."

    Nothing about the origins of regeneration just that it can take some trolls longer to regrow a limb.

  18. #58
    The Patient Kufell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Yet in Shadows Rising Apari the Zandalari priestess antagonist cannot regenerate her leg. She had completely lost the ability since Shadra died. This is in line with what we see with Rastakhan's rapid aging after the death of Rezan.
    I don't recall Shadow's Rising stating or even eluding to this, if you could provide a quote of this, I'd be interesting to have such. My understanding of it was that Apari's body had been damaged to such a point that here body wasn't able to keep up with the regeneration against all the infection in her body. And in fairness, Shadow's Rising overall seemed to downplay regeneration on a whole compared to previous media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Shadows of the Horde actually reinforced the blessing side as Vol'jin was incapable of regenerating LONG after the poison was gone. He spent months trying to heal and only regained his ability after speaking with the Loa. The only thing it invalidates is the limit on fingers and toes as major organs are mentioned.
    Shadows of the Horde establishes that the reason Vol'jin wasn't regenerating at full speed was because he had lost his sense of being a Troll, not because Bwonsamdi took that ability away from him. Bwonsamdi took that(his sense of being a Troll) from him, but only after Vol'jin was already feeling that way and not regenerating at normal rates, Trolls can control the process, without his sense of being a Troll, he presumably wasn't able to control that ability, or at least that's my own understanding.

    Whilst it's quite likely that Loa can influence a Troll's ability to regenerate, regeneration in itself is an innate ability of the Trolls.
    Last edited by Kufell; 2020-08-18 at 12:49 AM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoburger View Post
    Only one of those is a reptile.
    Those are all reptiles, since dinosaurs are, indeed, reptiles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    This may have been changed in the beta, apparently Rezan is no longer mentionned.
    Aw, that's lame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levaustian View Post
    Pretty sure all humanoids in the warcraft universe spawn from spores floating in the air. You never see anyone pregnant, and I have see fully grown ones appear out of nowhere.

    Also explains the rapid repopulation of Alliance/Horde after they've fought 1.2 Bajillion wars.
    You, kinda, saw a pregnant Aggra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Yet in Shadows Rising Apari the Zandalari priestess antagonist cannot regenerate her leg. She had completely lost the ability since Shadra died. This is in line with what we see with Rastakhan's rapid aging after the death of Rezan.

    Shadows of the Horde actually reinforced the blessing side as Vol'jin was incapable of regenerating LONG after the poison was gone. He spent months trying to heal and only regained his ability after speaking with the Loa. The only thing it invalidates is the limit on fingers and toes as major organs are mentioned.

    The only time Jani mentions regeneration is in https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Great_Hat_Robbery and he says "One Big Mon named Tik'su be the worst of all. He charge arms and legs outright and it even take trolls some time to regrow them parts."

    Nothing about the origins of regeneration just that it can take some trolls longer to regrow a limb.
    I don't think it was ever mentioned that Apari "couldn't" regenerate. It seemed very much as if she chose not to regenerate, heal, amputate or anything because her vision and mission needed her to die.

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  20. #60
    Trolls are the platypuses of Azeroth. They have some reptile features and mammal features.

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