Uber Will 'Shut Down' in California If It Must Classify Drivers as Employees

[Rasulis]

From day one, Uber and all of its investors understand that they need self-driving cars to be profitable. Human drivers represent the single largest expense in non-autonomous ride-sharing at 80% of the total per mile cost. By removing the driver from the equation, fully autonomous vehicles dramatically lower the cost of a ride while boosting its addressable market.

That's why Uber invest so much money into their self-driving car unit. Uber’s self-driving unit, the Advanced Technologies Group (ATG), has an estimated valuation of over $7.5 billion, representing over 14% of Uber’s current market cap of about $51.7 billion. Uber's goal from the very beginning is to eventually remove all of its human drivers.

[Jotaux]

It's way more than that.
Look up the ABC test for independent contractors.
You will easly see why they should have never been classified as independent.

That makes way more sense to me.

[PC2]

From day one, Uber and all of its investors understand that they need self-driving cars to be profitable. Human drivers represent the single largest expense in non-autonomous ride-sharing at 80% of the total per mile cost. By removing the driver from the equation, fully autonomous vehicles dramatically lower the cost of a ride while boosting its addressable market.

That's why Uber invest so much money into their self-driving car unit. Uber’s self-driving unit, the Advanced Technologies Group (ATG), has an estimated valuation of over $7.5 billion, representing over 14% of Uber’s current market cap of about $51.7 billion. Uber's goal from the very beginning is to eventually remove all of its human drivers.

Okay but you know that's a good thing, right? Everything that is contemporary should be automated so it forces us to increase our education and perform more valuable tasks.

[Theodarzna]

Okay but you know that's a good thing, right? Everything that is contemporary should be automated so it forces us to increase our education and perform more valuable tasks.

No, it really isn't good because that assumes school and education should determine if someone is worthy of a dignified and decent life.

[zEmini]

We can knock on lyft or uber all we want, but man it is so much better than the stupid cabs.

[PC2]

No, it really isn't good

Automation is good since there's infinite potential for new opportunities.

because that assumes school and education should determine if someone is worthy of a dignified and decent life.

The reality is that life is about 'education' and nobody should expect a decent life if they're not committed to rapid and lifelong education. Thanks to the internet education has never been cheaper and more accessible. If you're thinking that we're heading into a jobless world where everybody lives a decent life on UBI well then I think you're going to be very disappointed.

[Theodarzna]

Automation is good since there's infinite potential for new opportunities.

The reality is that life is about 'education' and nobody should expect a decent life if they're not committed to rapid and lifelong education. Thanks to the internet education has never been cheaper and more accessible. If you're thinking that we're heading into a jobless world where everybody lives a decent life on UBI well then I think you're going to be very disappointed.

No, it isn't. Education doesn't equalize, it establishes hierarchy. So its not a solution. I think we SHOULD go for that sort of world, I don't believe the education system should determine that some people should live in grinding misery and other live well off.

[lordsphinx]

Here is the interesting thing… This feels a bit like a “cut off your nose to spite your face” kind of thing. These drivers that are complaining are currently employed. If Uber leaves CA, then they will no longer be employed. Which is better, having the option to work somewhere (even if it’s not the best), or not having the option at all? It’s kind of the same situation with McDonalds. The employees strike and petition for a $15 minimum wage, so the company starts rolling out self-serve kiosks. The cashiers go from having a shitty job to having no job.

[Ivanstone]

Here is the interesting thing… This feels a bit like a “cut off your nose to spite your face” kind of thing. These drivers that are complaining are currently employed. If Uber leaves CA, then they will no longer be employed. Which is better, having the option to work somewhere (even if it’s not the best), or not having the option at all? It’s kind of the same situation with McDonalds. The employees strike and petition for a $15 minimum wage, so the company starts rolling out self-serve kiosks. The cashiers go from having a shitty job to having no job.

No point in having that shitty job if it doesn't cover life's expenses. There are parts of the US where a $15 minimum wage isn't sufficient.

Uber expects you to work long hours and grind your personal wealth (ie your car) into the dirt just so they can have their automated car pipe-dream. Uber is committing wide-spread wage theft and yet they still have no shortage of apologists simply because that wage theft enables convenience.

[lordsphinx]

No point in having that shitty job if it doesn't cover life's expenses. There are parts of the US where a $15 minimum wage isn't sufficient.

Uber expects you to work long hours and grind your personal wealth (ie your car) into the dirt just so they can have their automated car pipe-dream. Uber is committing wide-spread wage theft and yet they still have no shortage of apologists simply because that wage theft enables convenience.

If it's that bad, you're free to not work. For those people who enjoy driving for Uber, they get forced out by the company closing shop. I don't understand what they have to gain here.

Something similar happened at my last job. We were a manufacturing shop with about 130 employees. A few people decided to start talking with a labor union, and some flyers got passed around the shop. When the owner heard about it, he held an all hands meeting saying that if we decided to unionize, he would close the doors. We (not me, but the majority of the shop) called his bluff, and the day following our agreement with the union, we found the doors to the building locked. 130 people lost their jobs that day. Roughly 40 of us had no interest in unionizing, but we found ourselves jobless anyway.

[Rasulis]

If it's that bad, you're free to not work. For those people who enjoy driving for Uber, they get forced out by the company closing shop. I don't understand what they have to gain here.

Something similar happened at my last job. We were a manufacturing shop with about 130 employees. A few people decided to start talking with a labor union, and some flyers got passed around the shop. When the owner heard about it, he held an all hands meeting saying that if we decided to unionize, he would close the doors. We (not me, but the majority of the shop) called his bluff, and the day following our agreement with the union, we found the doors to the building locked. 130 people lost their jobs that day. Roughly 40 of us had no interest in unionizing, but we found ourselves jobless anyway.

From what I understand, Uber compensation when it just started in 2009 was quite generous. As profit became more and more of a factor, it started to get worse and worse. It is the same with Instacart, Grubhub, OrangeCrate, etc. which basically have the same business model.

[Scathbais]

Uber drivers can't refuse work actually. My dad has driven for Uber and he says that if a driver refuses pickups then the app will stop referring fares to them.

This is misleading. You can't refuse pickups if you are working. You can refuse pickups if you are not working. This is to stop Uber drivers from trying to cherry-pick higher paying fares.

[Thereturn]

Didnt take uber for scum. Guess i was wrong.

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Here is the interesting thing… This feels a bit like a “cut off your nose to spite your face” kind of thing. These drivers that are complaining are currently employed. If Uber leaves CA, then they will no longer be employed. Which is better, having the option to work somewhere (even if it’s not the best), or not having the option at all? It’s kind of the same situation with McDonalds. The employees strike and petition for a $15 minimum wage, so the company starts rolling out self-serve kiosks. The cashiers go from having a shitty job to having no job.

Useless people will become useless. More incoming the next 10 years.

[xenogear3]

I never understand how companies can get away with the term "contractor".

I guess they can hire kids for $1 a hour because they are "students", "learner" or something.

[Ivanstone]

If it's that bad, you're free to not work. For those people who enjoy driving for Uber, they get forced out by the company closing shop. I don't understand what they have to gain here.

A wage appropriate for their labours. Again, Uber engages in widespread wage theft.

Something similar happened at my last job. We were a manufacturing shop with about 130 employees. A few people decided to start talking with a labor union, and some flyers got passed around the shop. When the owner heard about it, he held an all hands meeting saying that if we decided to unionize, he would close the doors. We (not me, but the majority of the shop) called his bluff, and the day following our agreement with the union, we found the doors to the building locked. 130 people lost their jobs that day. Roughly 40 of us had no interest in unionizing, but we found ourselves jobless anyway.

That's illegal within the US. Its probably illegal within any developed nation. By all means continue to blame the workers for the sins of the employers. Hope you enjoy the race to the bottom. When do you start singing a different song? When wages dip below $5?

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From what I understand, Uber compensation when it just started in 2009 was quite generous. As profit became more and more of a factor, it started to get worse and worse. It is the same with Instacart, Grubhub, OrangeCrate, etc. which basically have the same business model.

There was less drivers dividing up the pot. Also they were probably more generous because they wanted to attract more drivers or they hadn't realized how much wage theft they could indulge in.

- - - Updated - - -

This is misleading. You can't refuse pickups if you are working. You can refuse pickups if you are not working. This is to stop Uber drivers from trying to cherry-pick higher paying fares.

Uber drivers are by no means saints and a certain amount of enforcement is probably necessary but life isn't a bowl of roses and being a hard ass about refusals can be problematic.

Furthermore, Uber will tend to fuck over their drivers on multiple pick ups. My dad's preference is to do only a single or single group of passengers. Uber requires that he pick up multiples if possible and then they pocket the extra money from the fares.

[david0925]

I never understand how companies can get away with the term "contractor".

I guess they can hire kids for $1 a hour because they are "students", "learner" or something.

you just described college sports lol

[xenogear3]

you just described college sports lol

They are lured to make millions of dollars in the future.

[Saltysquidoon]

I'm ignorant of US laws concerning employees vs. subcontractors but if its anything like Canadian law I don't see how they can be employees.

They set their own hours
Use their own tools (the car)
Can refuse work
Can work for another company (When I was down there for blizzcon they were driving for lyft and uber at the same time)
Risk of loss or profit

In Australia, we have a list of criteria and based on that list a judge (or more likely an appeals bench) has to make a decision as to if the person is an employee or contractor based on the calculus of the list.

Presently Uber is not classified as an employer but it's worth noting that is a non-judical decision made by the fair work ombudsman that is presently staffed by the pro-corporate political party. There is no certainty that would stand up to an actual legal challenge.

The reality is that life is about 'education' and nobody should expect a decent life if they're not committed to rapid and lifelong education. Thanks to the internet education has never been cheaper and more accessible. If you're thinking that we're heading into a jobless world where everybody lives a decent life on UBI well then I think you're going to be very disappointed.

I actually agree with your premise here that automation can be a good thing, you implied conclusion that it would allow for the infinite creation of skill jobs is flawed however. We're already basically at the point where we have more law graduates then we need every year.

Something similar happened at my last job. We were a manufacturing shop with about 130 employees. A few people decided to start talking with a labor union, and some flyers got passed around the shop. When the owner heard about it, he held an all hands meeting saying that if we decided to unionize, he would close the doors. We (not me, but the majority of the shop) called his bluff, and the day following our agreement with the union, we found the doors to the building locked. 130 people lost their jobs that day. Roughly 40 of us had no interest in unionizing, but we found ourselves jobless anyway.

Unless you are at least a millionaire and a member of the capitalist class making neoliberal talking points like this is advocating against your own interests and makes you a propagandist or a fool. Don't be either, be better.

[Masark]

I'm ignorant of US laws concerning employees vs. subcontractors but if its anything like Canadian law I don't see how they can be employees.

The supreme court appears to be considerably more skeptical of that than you are.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ste...sion-1.5626853

[PC2]

I actually agree with your premise here that automation can be a good thing, you implied conclusion that it would allow for the infinite creation of skill jobs is flawed however.

What I meant is that automating all jobs that exist right now will free us up to work on an endless amount of new problems and we'll be creating new industries to meet future goals. There can't be a utopia so there will always be more things for people to work on.

We're already basically at the point where we have more law graduates then we need every year.

I see, there's no end to STEM and artistic endeavors so we could try to get some law students to switch professions.