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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I have something to tell you about the stock market. And also landlords.
    and you honestly belive that landlords dont work ? or that people who invest heavily in stocks and rip profit from it dont work ?

    guess you live in alternate reality or in 0,00001% of world wealth

    most of wealthy people i know work crazy hours even though they could easily become rentiers by age of 40 .

    but lack of things to do would kill them very fast.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    "I started my business using government tax deductions and government subsidies" is not the shining argument for capitalism that you think it is, sweetheart. Lol.

    Also, your anecdotes are statistically worthless and not applicable to anyone besides yourself.
    exept to at least 4 - 5 of my friends who also got such grants - for businesses varying from hair/nails parlor, through private MD practise and ending with private lawyers practise.

    also why it isnt ? anyone stopping you from making good business plan and taking start-up loan from bank ?

    but ye if you start you gotta work - and lazy people dont want to work - thats their biggest problem .
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2020-08-18 at 10:59 AM.

  2. #82
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    True and anyone arguing against the OP Title forfeit their right to ever complain about crime or anything associated with it.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  3. #83
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    im gonna post like in every single thread of this type

    living wage doesnt mean wage that lets you live comfotably only wage that puts roof over your head , some clothes on your back and minimal amount of food needed for nutrition .

    where :

    roof over your head means that you are able to rent a room/bed in someone elses apartement

    some clothes - may mean used clothes sold in 2nd hand shops

    minimal nutritions - 1500-2000 calories a day

    this is what living wage means.
    No. It isn't. A living wage is intended to give the worker a basic standard of living, and that includes a basic level of entertainment and the like, not just the barest of minimums.

    What you're describing is a subsistence wage, which is not the same thing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    it's just my opinion but you shouldn't be entitled to basic living if you don't expect to contribute to society in any way. That creates parasites.
    Acting as a consumer contributes to the economy, more than working for a wage does. Consuming itself is not "parasitic", in a consumer economy; it's the fundamental basis of the entire economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and you honestly belive that landlords dont work ? or that people who invest heavily in stocks and rip profit from it dont work ?
    In both cases, no. Their income is derived solely through ownership of things.

    In the case of landlords specifically, there's maintenance and such to handle, but landlords often hire a building manager to handle all that stuff. Often for the wage of "not paying rent for their apartment". The only "work" they would be doing is approving or declining major repairs, and making sure the funds are available for it.

    And stocks? Hire a fund manager. They'll do literally all the work for a slice off the top. You literally do not have to do any work with your stock portfolio, to earn an income off it.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In both cases, no. Their income is derived solely through ownership of things.

    In the case of landlords specifically, there's maintenance and such to handle, but landlords often hire a building manager to handle all that stuff. Often for the wage of "not paying rent for their apartment". The only "work" they would be doing is approving or declining major repairs, and making sure the funds are available for it.

    And stocks? Hire a fund manager. They'll do literally all the work for a slice off the top. You literally do not have to do any work with your stock portfolio, to earn an income off it.
    kk like i thought we are both talking about completly different groups of people

    you are speaking about multi-milionaires & bilionairs and im speaking about normal highly paid specialists who have X disposable income and invest it into for example 3-10 properties for long term rents.

    not sure why you include them into discussion about minumum wage but sure ofc if you count the 0,001% then yes lol.

  5. #85
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    kk like i thought we are both talking about completly different groups of people

    you are speaking about multi-milionaires & bilionairs and im speaking about normal highly paid specialists who have X disposable income and invest it into for example 3-10 properties for long term rents.
    It doesn't take being a multi-millionaire. So you're just trying to hand-wave rather than deal with the point.

    You were trying to argue that making money was commensurate with hard work, and it flatly is not. The idea is diametrically opposed to the principles of capitalism, in fact.
    Last edited by Endus; 2020-08-18 at 12:53 PM.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    living wage doesnt mean wage that lets you live comfotably only wage that puts roof over your head , some clothes on your back and minimal amount of food needed for nutrition .
    On this, you are correct, workers should be paid a thriving wage, not a living wage. That the demands are only for a slightly less uncomfortable living rather than the lion's share of the economic value they create is a testament to how housebroken the wage slaves of America are.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgettable View Post
    I don't see how it's a counterpoint, but you're right otherwise. Pretty close though at $122 billion.
    He's not (and no one is) THAT rich, but his level of richness is mythical still.

  8. #88
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    So if capitalism always fails, and communism always fails, what option is there that's not from the speculative fiction section of the bookstore?

    Europe has socialism mixed in with capitalism, but is still solidly capitalist. We've seen the burning wreck communism left of the USSR.

    Have you created a perfect system and are just hiding it away from the world?
    Or maybe the elite just don't want a system that does not benefit them and instead benefits the poor and working class. Every thought about that?


    But no, elites like Bezos deserve 190 billion dollars while millions starve and billions live in poverity because reasons.
    Communism will win.

  9. #89
    Brewmaster wunksta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    well then workers are free to open their own companies and achieve success too

    what is stopping them ?

    ah they lack any decent skills and cannot produce anything valuable

    what a shame

    thn maybe their wages are fair after all .
    Workers produce all the value for corporations and as previous graphs have shown have increase productivity over the years.

  10. #90
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    It never ceases to amaze me just how many people will take unchecked Capitalism in defense... How about we make it easy for the companies and return to the Industrial Revolution-esque status? Where 7-year old boys would start working to help support the family and still they'd barely get by.
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  11. #91
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me just how many people will take unchecked Capitalism in defense... How about we make it easy for the companies and return to the Industrial Revolution-esque status? Where 7-year old boys would start working to help support the family and still they'd barely get by.
    You say "would", but to put it in context, both of that boy's parents were working 14-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week, and could only barely afford to feed themselves, their youngest children, and keep a dilapidated tenement apartment's roof over their heads (if they were lucky). The 7-year-old was starting working because, if he didn't, his parents couldn't afford to feed him.

    So less "would", and more "had to, since the alternative was literally starving".

    The real tragedy is that this "capitalism" has much more to do with the mercantilist systems that Adam Smith was trying to tear down, and not with his vision of "capitalism" which would replace it. The only real difference is that instead of nation-states controlling the corporate entities, they're independent of national controls, which is arguably way worse. Adam Smith would probably, if he were somehow brought forward to today and educated on the intervening context, support socialism, not modern capitalism. This economic supranational oligarchy is not what he envisioned.

  12. #92
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itzLCD View Post
    snip
    My view is somewhat simple.

    Minimum wage should be based on the average cost of a 1 bedroom apartment + average cost of utilities + average cost groceries + average cost of public transportation.

    If you house yourself, feed yourself, travel, and have heating/cooling, you can live. This should not be a national average, this should be a state district average.

    In many areas in my state, that would be just shy of $2,000 a month. This should also be after taxes. $15 an hour is about the right amount to achieve this in most places in NJ. If you decide to live with a roommate, or a spouse, that doubles that amount allowing you to make financial decisions to improve your life, or in the case of having a partner, perhaps being able to raise a child without feeling like you will lose your home, or be unable to care for yourself and your family.

    On top of all of this, we need a form of very low cost health care, or a national healthcare system so that cost isn't an additional burden on the minimum or low wage workers.
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  13. #93
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    Workers produce all the value for corporations and as previous graphs have shown have increase productivity over the years.
    Yeah but USSR bad this one time so now workers deserve nothing.
    Communism will win.

  14. #94
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    On this, you are correct, workers should be paid a thriving wage, not a living wage.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. If optimizing wages for workers and not businesses is truly what's best for society then why on Earth would we set it at a living wage and not a thriving wage. It makes no sense.
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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    No, you should never reward people for not working. That's honestly crazy.
    One doesn't get a wage without working. Are you in the right thread?
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  16. #96
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    That's exactly what I was thinking. If optimizing wages for workers and not businesses is truly what's best for society then why on Earth would we set it at a living wage and not a thriving wage. It makes no sense.
    Depends on one's definition of 'living'.

    We've had three terms here. Subsistence wage, Living Wage, and Thriving Wage.

    - Subsistence wage is having a roof and food, nothing more.
    - Living Wage would be enough to pay all your bills. Have a place to live, food, utilities, clothes, health care, transportation, and communications. All the basic expectations a modern person would expect to have.
    - Thriving Wage would be enough to have all the previous needs met, while being able to save additional money, and some luxuries.

    In my idea of a living wage, you might not being able to move forward financially too easily without living with a roommate, or a partner. But with two people living together, your household income become thriving. With today's minimum wage in most places, you need to live with roommates or a partner just to be at the Living Wage level.
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  17. #97
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    it's just my opinion but you shouldn't be entitled to basic living if you don't expect to contribute to society in any way. That creates parasites.
    People in poverty without opportunities leads to crime. Also people don’t pursue Arts and their dreams because of money

  18. #98
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    it's just my opinion but you shouldn't be entitled to basic living if you don't expect to contribute to society in any way. That creates parasites.
    Is working at a place of business not a contribution to society?
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    People in poverty without opportunities leads to crime. Also people don’t pursue Arts and their dreams because of money
    it's cowardice to become a gangster or similar because it was your only option. Also, what do you mean? Artists often make a lot of money.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Is working at a place of business not a contribution to society?
    what I got from this thread wasn't about making a basic living from working a shitty job, but about getting basic money if you're a NEET or basement dweller. And to that, I mean NO. Those people need to be weeded out from life if they don't work.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by itzLCD View Post
    I know this was a hot topic a couple weeks ago with everything that's going on at Blizzard, however with that specifically set aside for a moment, this is about a more broader issue that has been a problem for a long time now. This idea that if you don't want to be in poverty you need to go to college to insure a better future which in my opinion is just an ancient and asinine way of thinking that is killing our country and future generations to come.

    Every single person in the United States of America should be paid a living wage based on their location regardless of their job or status.
    - A living wage is defined as the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs.

    I find it unsettling to say the least that blue collar workers who are the backbone of society and the ones who even make our economy run in the first place, shouldn't be paid more money because of the type of work they do. Workers who stock store shelves, drive trucks, deliver packages, work in warehouses, deal with rude costumers all day in restaurants and retail stores, the people who make it possible so you can take a shower every morning or deal with your human waste when you flush the toilet etc. Why do these people not deserve to be paid a wage that allows them to eat, pay their bills and save a little extra? Millions of Americans (and people all over the world really) are living paycheck to paycheck meanwhile greedy business owners are sitting on millions and billions without a care in the world.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying someone delivering groceries or working the cash register at your favorite restaurant deserves to be making 100k a year but at the same time shouldn't have to be begging for tips to barely pay their $1400/month rent on a minimum wage that hasn't been adjusted to meet the standards of inflation since 2009. Now for those who want a little extra to buy their Mercedes Benz then by all mean go to school and get into those fields with a lot higher paying salaries to meet the standard of the way you want to live. However this does not mean everyone else that we depend on should be starving.

    Look at it this way. For everyone who wanted to be a software engineer or a doctor or a pilot etc...that's amazing but at the end of the day there still people NEEDED to do all those "meaningless" jobs no one else wants to do; you can't expect 14 and 15 year olds to run all those businesses which is an argument that I often see. What about our education system where teachers are paid the bare minimum on college degrees to help shape our future?

    I think it's about time we come together and take a stance this.
    The only way for it to work would be to control inflation and it's hard to control inflation in a free market.

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