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  1. #1

    Everyone Deserves to Make a Living Wage Regardless of Job/Status

    I know this was a hot topic a couple weeks ago with everything that's going on at Blizzard, however with that specifically set aside for a moment, this is about a more broader issue that has been a problem for a long time now. This idea that if you don't want to be in poverty you need to go to college to insure a better future which in my opinion is just an ancient and asinine way of thinking that is killing our country and future generations to come.

    Every single person in the United States of America should be paid a living wage based on their location regardless of their job or status.
    - A living wage is defined as the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs.

    I find it unsettling to say the least that blue collar workers who are the backbone of society and the ones who even make our economy run in the first place, shouldn't be paid more money because of the type of work they do. Workers who stock store shelves, drive trucks, deliver packages, work in warehouses, deal with rude costumers all day in restaurants and retail stores, the people who make it possible so you can take a shower every morning or deal with your human waste when you flush the toilet etc. Why do these people not deserve to be paid a wage that allows them to eat, pay their bills and save a little extra? Millions of Americans (and people all over the world really) are living paycheck to paycheck meanwhile greedy business owners are sitting on millions and billions without a care in the world.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying someone delivering groceries or working the cash register at your favorite restaurant deserves to be making 100k a year but at the same time shouldn't have to be begging for tips to barely pay their $1400/month rent on a minimum wage that hasn't been adjusted to meet the standards of inflation since 2009. Now for those who want a little extra to buy their Mercedes Benz then by all mean go to school and get into those fields with a lot higher paying salaries to meet the standard of the way you want to live. However this does not mean everyone else that we depend on should be starving.

    Look at it this way. For everyone who wanted to be a software engineer or a doctor or a pilot etc...that's amazing but at the end of the day there still people NEEDED to do all those "meaningless" jobs no one else wants to do; you can't expect 14 and 15 year olds to run all those businesses which is an argument that I often see. What about our education system where teachers are paid the bare minimum on college degrees to help shape our future?

    I think it's about time we come together and take a stance this.
    Last edited by itzLCD; 2020-08-17 at 09:06 PM.

  2. #2
    The Forgettable Forgettable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itzLCD View Post
    For example take Jeff Bezos or Mark Zukerberg who could hypothetically write a 1 million dollar check to every person in America, including those under age 18, and still be the richest men in the world 10x over while also solving poverty and hunger for the entire country over night.
    $1million x 340million people =
    $1,000,000 x 340,000,000 =
    $340,000,000,000,000 =
    $340 Trillion

    Jeff Bezos has ~$190 billion in equity. He would need to multiply his fortune by around 2000 times to fulfill the $1,000,000 to each person in the US that you mentioned.

  3. #3
    The definition of a living wage is usually the arguing point though.
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  4. #4
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    I've long supported a universal basic income. It has a lot of potential advantages;
    1. Eliminates the overhead on most support programs. A UBI just needs to confirm citizenship once, and then maintain address info, and watch for end-of-life. Monthly checks are largely not required, like they are for welfare and unemployment. A huge reduction in admin costs, relative to support.
    2. The economy is a consumer economy. A UBI ensures that consumption continues, even during an employment slowdown; this should help mitigate recessions and depressions.
    3. Elimination of the minimum wage. A UBI means you really can just let people work for whatever they want to. Because now, they have the freedom to say "nah, fuck it" and refuse a job offer that doesn't pay enough, and live off their UBI. Again, this reduces oversight requirements. And improves competition in the labor market.
    4. Moderates the workforce in positive ways. You no longer have to work; if you want to sit around and play Xbox all day, fine. That means you're not plugging up the job market and taking positions other workers would actually want. It means you're not longer expected to go to post-secondary school. Etc.
    5. Supports the arts. You want to make art, of whatever kind, but it's not selling yet/you're still learning your skills? UBI has your back. Live your dream.
    6. Lowers crime. You don't need to turn to crime because you're out of options. UBI is your option.

    The resistance seems mostly to be predicated on the idea that human suffering is a virtuous necessity of society, somehow. That poor people need to struggle to feed themselves and fail to get proper support for themselves and their families, because that suffering is "right". I cannot see how that's reasonable. I understand the argument, about fostering ambition and drive, but that's not what actually happens. It's a claim that fails the test in practice. In practice, it just encourages suffering, and presents that suffering as desirable. That's what evil looks like.

  5. #5
    Banned Thee ANCOM's Avatar
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    or we could, you know, tear down capitalism in favor of a system that respects human life.

  6. #6
    Yeah, that’s what first world countries call a minimum wage. Maybe one day, if you elect smart people instead of Trump-like goons, you’ll get there too.

  7. #7
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Not gonna happen as long as even those walking on their knees having 3 jobs and still living paycheck to paycheck, keep worshipping Capitalism and considering Unions to be "communist", or is it "Socialist" that's the new boogeyman...?

    Meeting and not having to worry about basic needs such as a roof over your head, healthcare for yourself and your family, and earning enough to not be made bankrupt by an unforeseen expense of 400 USD is still a minimum considering just how wealthy some are becoming on the backs of society and all those little people.

    I myself like the idea of a UBI, but chances are that in a society sticking with unchecked Capitalism, it'd be made so small that people still had no choice but to slave away, and all other welfare would disappear ending up with those having the least, having even less.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2020-08-17 at 09:33 PM.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Thee ANCOM View Post
    or we could, you know, tear down capitalism in favor of a system that respects human life.
    And what would that be?
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Thee ANCOM View Post
    or we could, you know, tear down capitalism in favor of a system that respects human life.
    There isn't one, at this point. Communism failed spectacularly and killed untold millions in the process. Nothing about their system respected human life or dignity at all. So which magical, utopian system are you positing?
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  10. #10
    Banned Thee ANCOM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    There isn't one, at this point. Communism failed spectacularly and killed untold millions in the process.
    Capitalism fails all the time and is responsible for billions more lives being lost. I'm not even arguing in favor of Maoism or Stalinism anyway.

  11. #11
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    I think everyone who applies themselves and works really hard "deserves" to make a luxury wage and not merely a living wage but the real debate is whether or not a minimum wage at a certain level is solely optimizing for our current emotional/moral concerns at the expense of economic healthiness over time.

    Also you would need an objective or precise criteria for determining the "living wage" otherwise it will always be a nebulous target that cannot be reached.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Thee ANCOM View Post
    Capitalism fails all the time and is responsible for billions more lives being lost. I'm not even arguing in favor of Maoism or Stalinism anyway.
    So if capitalism always fails, and communism always fails, what option is there that's not from the speculative fiction section of the bookstore?

    Europe has socialism mixed in with capitalism, but is still solidly capitalist. We've seen the burning wreck communism left of the USSR.

    Have you created a perfect system and are just hiding it away from the world?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
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  13. #13
    Technology is the biggest thing preventing us from moving away from capitalism, once it is at a sufficient level there will be no need for $$. 3D printing, once it is able to easily effectively print organic matter the world will be a much different place.
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  14. #14
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    So if capitalism always fails, and communism always fails, what option is there that's not from the speculative fiction section of the bookstore?

    Europe has socialism mixed in with capitalism, but is still solidly capitalist. We've seen the burning wreck communism left of the USSR.

    Have you created a perfect system and are just hiding it away from the world?
    Y'know, we've been discussing the possibility of true socialism for a little over two hundred years, now. Could be worth a try, just maybe?

  15. #15
    Banned Thee ANCOM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    So if capitalism always fails, and communism always fails, what option is there that's not from the speculative fiction section of the bookstore?
    that's not what political theory is, lol what are you on about.

    authoritarianism is not exclusive to communism.
    Have you created a perfect system and are just hiding it away from the world?
    seriously what the hell are you on here. no one is talking about having all the answers.

    anyway it should be obvious I favor a socialist society over a capitalistic one.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Y'know, we've been discussing the possibility of true socialism for a little over two hundred years, now. Could be worth a try, just maybe?
    Depends, can it exist without extensive use of the No True Scotsman/appeal to purity-type arguments?
    Last edited by Stelio Kontos; 2020-08-17 at 10:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
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  17. #17
    Banned Thee ANCOM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Depends, can it exist without extensive use of the No True Scotman/appeal to purity-type arguments?
    notice no one here has made that argument so far and you, YOU are the one who brought this fallacy up.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgettable View Post
    $1million x 340million people =
    $1,000,000 x 340,000,000 =
    $340,000,000,000,000 =
    $340 Trillion

    Jeff Bezos has ~$190 billion in equity. He would need to multiply his fortune by around 2000 times to fulfill the $1,000,000 to each person in the US that you mentioned.
    Yeah, that was a pretty stupid point.

    Here's a counterpoint: If you were born the same year as Jesus, and made $7,000 per hour, every hour of the day, including when you were sleeping, you would still not be as rich as Jeff Bezos.

  19. #19
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Ah, yes, the true 100% real no fake socialism that hasn't been tried yet. Would love to see it in the us, a bit afraid of spending all the money on popcorn needed to endure through this spectacular shitshow

  20. #20
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Depends, can it exist without extensive use of the No True Scotsman/appeal to purity-type arguments?
    Kudos on pre-emptively kneejerking about an argument no one made.

    If you're suggesting the nonsense that Stalinist communism is socialism and all socialism is Stalinist communism, you can take a long walk off a short pier, because that's dishonest bullcrap. When people point out that socialist theory is hugely broader than just Stalinist communism, that's not a "no true Scotsman" argument, at all.

    Communist theory is an extremist branch off the broader base of socialist theory. Pointing to Stalin to criticize socialism makes as much (non)sense as pointing to Hitler to criticize capitalism.

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