Everyone Deserves to Make a Living Wage Regardless of Job/Status

[kamuimac]

In both cases, no. Their income is derived solely through ownership of things.

In the case of landlords specifically, there's maintenance and such to handle, but landlords often hire a building manager to handle all that stuff. Often for the wage of "not paying rent for their apartment". The only "work" they would be doing is approving or declining major repairs, and making sure the funds are available for it.

And stocks? Hire a fund manager. They'll do literally all the work for a slice off the top. You literally do not have to do any work with your stock portfolio, to earn an income off it.

kk like i thought we are both talking about completly different groups of people

you are speaking about multi-milionaires & bilionairs and im speaking about normal highly paid specialists who have X disposable income and invest it into for example 3-10 properties for long term rents.

not sure why you include them into discussion about minumum wage but sure ofc if you count the 0,001% then yes lol.

[Endus]

kk like i thought we are both talking about completly different groups of people

you are speaking about multi-milionaires & bilionairs and im speaking about normal highly paid specialists who have X disposable income and invest it into for example 3-10 properties for long term rents.

It doesn't take being a multi-millionaire. So you're just trying to hand-wave rather than deal with the point.

You were trying to argue that making money was commensurate with hard work, and it flatly is not. The idea is diametrically opposed to the principles of capitalism, in fact.

[DisposableHero]

living wage doesnt mean wage that lets you live comfotably only wage that puts roof over your head , some clothes on your back and minimal amount of food needed for nutrition .

On this, you are correct, workers should be paid a thriving wage, not a living wage. That the demands are only for a slightly less uncomfortable living rather than the lion's share of the economic value they create is a testament to how housebroken the wage slaves of America are.

[Jonnusthegreat]

I don't see how it's a counterpoint, but you're right otherwise. Pretty close though at $122 billion.

He's not (and no one is) THAT rich, but his level of richness is mythical still.

[JohnBrown1917]

So if capitalism always fails, and communism always fails, what option is there that's not from the speculative fiction section of the bookstore?

Europe has socialism mixed in with capitalism, but is still solidly capitalist. We've seen the burning wreck communism left of the USSR.

Have you created a perfect system and are just hiding it away from the world?

Or maybe the elite just don't want a system that does not benefit them and instead benefits the poor and working class. Every thought about that?


But no, elites like Bezos deserve 190 billion dollars while millions starve and billions live in poverity because reasons.

[wunksta]

well then workers are free to open their own companies and achieve success too

what is stopping them ?

ah they lack any decent skills and cannot produce anything valuable

what a shame

thn maybe their wages are fair after all .

Workers produce all the value for corporations and as previous graphs have shown have increase productivity over the years.

[Queen of Hamsters]

It never ceases to amaze me just how many people will take unchecked Capitalism in defense... How about we make it easy for the companies and return to the Industrial Revolution-esque status? Where 7-year old boys would start working to help support the family and still they'd barely get by.

[Endus]

It never ceases to amaze me just how many people will take unchecked Capitalism in defense... How about we make it easy for the companies and return to the Industrial Revolution-esque status? Where 7-year old boys would start working to help support the family and still they'd barely get by.

You say "would", but to put it in context, both of that boy's parents were working 14-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week, and could only barely afford to feed themselves, their youngest children, and keep a dilapidated tenement apartment's roof over their heads (if they were lucky). The 7-year-old was starting working because, if he didn't, his parents couldn't afford to feed him.

So less "would", and more "had to, since the alternative was literally starving".

The real tragedy is that this "capitalism" has much more to do with the mercantilist systems that Adam Smith was trying to tear down, and not with his vision of "capitalism" which would replace it. The only real difference is that instead of nation-states controlling the corporate entities, they're independent of national controls, which is arguably way worse. Adam Smith would probably, if he were somehow brought forward to today and educated on the intervening context, support socialism, not modern capitalism. This economic supranational oligarchy is not what he envisioned.

[Kathandira]

snip

My view is somewhat simple.

Minimum wage should be based on the average cost of a 1 bedroom apartment + average cost of utilities + average cost groceries + average cost of public transportation.

If you house yourself, feed yourself, travel, and have heating/cooling, you can live. This should not be a national average, this should be a state district average.

In many areas in my state, that would be just shy of $2,000 a month. This should also be after taxes. $15 an hour is about the right amount to achieve this in most places in NJ. If you decide to live with a roommate, or a spouse, that doubles that amount allowing you to make financial decisions to improve your life, or in the case of having a partner, perhaps being able to raise a child without feeling like you will lose your home, or be unable to care for yourself and your family.

On top of all of this, we need a form of very low cost health care, or a national healthcare system so that cost isn't an additional burden on the minimum or low wage workers.

[JohnBrown1917]

Workers produce all the value for corporations and as previous graphs have shown have increase productivity over the years.

Yeah but USSR bad this one time so now workers deserve nothing.

[PC2]

On this, you are correct, workers should be paid a thriving wage, not a living wage.

That's exactly what I was thinking. If optimizing wages for workers and not businesses is truly what's best for society then why on Earth would we set it at a living wage and not a thriving wage. It makes no sense.

[kail]

No, you should never reward people for not working. That's honestly crazy.

One doesn't get a wage without working. Are you in the right thread?

[Kathandira]

That's exactly what I was thinking. If optimizing wages for workers and not businesses is truly what's best for society then why on Earth would we set it at a living wage and not a thriving wage. It makes no sense.

Depends on one's definition of 'living'.

We've had three terms here. Subsistence wage, Living Wage, and Thriving Wage.

- Subsistence wage is having a roof and food, nothing more.
- Living Wage would be enough to pay all your bills. Have a place to live, food, utilities, clothes, health care, transportation, and communications. All the basic expectations a modern person would expect to have.
- Thriving Wage would be enough to have all the previous needs met, while being able to save additional money, and some luxuries.

In my idea of a living wage, you might not being able to move forward financially too easily without living with a roommate, or a partner. But with two people living together, your household income become thriving. With today's minimum wage in most places, you need to live with roommates or a partner just to be at the Living Wage level.

[Themius]

it's just my opinion but you shouldn't be entitled to basic living if you don't expect to contribute to society in any way. That creates parasites.

People in poverty without opportunities leads to crime. Also people don’t pursue Arts and their dreams because of money

[Kathandira]

it's just my opinion but you shouldn't be entitled to basic living if you don't expect to contribute to society in any way. That creates parasites.

Is working at a place of business not a contribution to society?

[YUPPIE]

People in poverty without opportunities leads to crime. Also people don’t pursue Arts and their dreams because of money

it's cowardice to become a gangster or similar because it was your only option. Also, what do you mean? Artists often make a lot of money.

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Is working at a place of business not a contribution to society?

what I got from this thread wasn't about making a basic living from working a shitty job, but about getting basic money if you're a NEET or basement dweller. And to that, I mean NO. Those people need to be weeded out from life if they don't work.

[BlackDruid96]

I know this was a hot topic a couple weeks ago with everything that's going on at Blizzard, however with that specifically set aside for a moment, this is about a more broader issue that has been a problem for a long time now. This idea that if you don't want to be in poverty you need to go to college to insure a better future which in my opinion is just an ancient and asinine way of thinking that is killing our country and future generations to come.

Every single person in the United States of America should be paid a living wage based on their location regardless of their job or status.
- A living wage is defined as the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs.

I find it unsettling to say the least that blue collar workers who are the backbone of society and the ones who even make our economy run in the first place, shouldn't be paid more money because of the type of work they do. Workers who stock store shelves, drive trucks, deliver packages, work in warehouses, deal with rude costumers all day in restaurants and retail stores, the people who make it possible so you can take a shower every morning or deal with your human waste when you flush the toilet etc. Why do these people not deserve to be paid a wage that allows them to eat, pay their bills and save a little extra? Millions of Americans (and people all over the world really) are living paycheck to paycheck meanwhile greedy business owners are sitting on millions and billions without a care in the world.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying someone delivering groceries or working the cash register at your favorite restaurant deserves to be making 100k a year but at the same time shouldn't have to be begging for tips to barely pay their $1400/month rent on a minimum wage that hasn't been adjusted to meet the standards of inflation since 2009. Now for those who want a little extra to buy their Mercedes Benz then by all mean go to school and get into those fields with a lot higher paying salaries to meet the standard of the way you want to live. However this does not mean everyone else that we depend on should be starving.

Look at it this way. For everyone who wanted to be a software engineer or a doctor or a pilot etc...that's amazing but at the end of the day there still people NEEDED to do all those "meaningless" jobs no one else wants to do; you can't expect 14 and 15 year olds to run all those businesses which is an argument that I often see. What about our education system where teachers are paid the bare minimum on college degrees to help shape our future?

I think it's about time we come together and take a stance this.

The only way for it to work would be to control inflation and it's hard to control inflation in a free market.

[Thee ANCOM]

it's cowardice to become a gangster or similar because it was your only option. Also, what do you mean? Artists often make a lot of money.

how is it cowardly to choose to risk your life to make it somewhat better? tough guy? lol what world do you live in where most artists can even afford rent most of the time.

[Kathandira]

it's cowardice to become a gangster or similar because it was your only option. Also, what do you mean? Artists often make a lot of money.

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what I got from this thread wasn't about making a basic living from working a shitty job, but about getting basic money if you're a NEET or basement dweller. And to that, I mean NO. Those people need to be weeded out from life if they don't work.

Ah, such as Universal Basic Income? Yeah, that is a whole other subject.

[tehealadin]

It makes sense to want a society where everyone can earn enough to live, to pay their bills, get enough food and some money for leisure. You will have a happier society, there is reason to believe that it would lead to a less violent society, with less crime overall. When too many people don't have this, it never goes well and quickly becomes everyone's problem. Making it happen though is a different story.