Should the game be ruined in pursuit of utopian competitive equality?

[qwerty123456]

What is it your trying to argue now?

I know you don't know how to use the tools you are attempting to but tell me why do you think there are only 566 frost dk parses?

I mean I get your reaching but at least fucking learn what it is your using to reach with. There are 4708 dh parses on that fight because they utterly demolish dks.

I take back my other video this one fits far more...

--- snip ---

You said nobody. Clearly you don't know how to to do anything but troll. But yeah just keep ignoring every fact and link and instead of showing any proof just keep on spewing out what ever you feel is right.

[goldlock]

You said nobody. Clearly you don't know how to to do anything but troll. But yeah just keep ignoring every fact and link and instead of showing any proof just keep on spewing out what ever you feel is right.

What do you mean feel is right?

Look at the classes being brought into the deeper bosses with actual performance checks. I can tell you why there are so many of specific specs and it isn't because the blizz balance team is doing an amazing job.

DKs are seen as burdens since the damage they bring is ineffective for the fight.... There isn't 57 MM hunters fighting znoth because they are really close to being as good as BM hunters either...

Never mind the fact that out of the 36 specs only 24 have killed mythic znoth more then 50 times in the past two weeks in the world and some of those like MM are brought in for meme parses...

My original point of blizzard wont lift a finger to help nonperforming covenants stands strong.

[Tumble]

Yeah, and in both of those situations that argument is bullshit. If flying is available and unlocked then no one is going to opt out from it because it's too good and it's too much of a disadvantage in comparison to other players.

Also, it could be argued whether flying being unavailable vs. available actually enhances the gameplay in any way. Covenants clearly introduce an interesting dynamic to gameplay by being hard to swap.

It's not bullshit, its the exact same thing. Stopping someone from doing something that YOU don't want to do is what's bullshit. If you want to dedicate your time to playing with one and one only covenant than that's on you. Why do YOU care if I want to play with all four. It's non of your business unless you are going to start paying for my account.

[kaminaris]

Blizzard can decide on all the stupid systems it wants, doesn't mean they're right.
And it takes more than a few stupid changes to make me(or anybody) simply quit a game.

It's like 90% of the game is good 10% is bad, it doesn't mean you quit over that. Maybe at like 60%? idk, everyone has a threshold.
I'm actually surprised you don't quit because almost everything else(except classes) can be changed without much fuss in this game.

It also doesn't mean you are right.

We are at page 26 and you still cannot grasp a concept of meaningful factions. It doesn't matter that you can change much in a game without issues, it's absolutely irrelevant.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Moved passed if it should.. more into the acceptance phase now..

[Rayzen17]

It also doesn't mean you are right.

We are at page 26 and you still cannot grasp a concept of meaningful factions. It doesn't matter that you can change much in a game without issues, it's absolutely irrelevant.

Your whole "meaningful choices" has no meaning, no matter how much you clamor for it. It's not a permanent choice like classes, you can switch it in 2 weeks.
What meaning did you get now since you just changed? Or wait, you didn't change? Well which one is it?

If you admittedly go ahead and change then your meaningful choice was just a lie.
If you never change even though you can, it has no meaning either(by your clamoring of meaningful choices), since you had the option to never change even if the covenants were not hard to switch.

No meaningful choice here whatsoever.

[kaminaris]

Your whole "meaningful choices" has no meaning, no matter how much you clamor for it. It's not a permanent choice like classes, you can switch it in 2 weeks.
What meaning did you get now since you just changed? Or wait, you didn't change? Well which one is it?

So you still cannot understand it I see. Just how hard is to grasp a concept of a choice that also has some kind of penalty is not on the same level as clicking another loadout button? Permanent or not is not relevant here.

If you admittedly go ahead and change then your meaningful choice was just a lie.

You cannot "admittedly go ahead" things you cannot yet understand.

If you never change even though you can, it has no meaning either(by your clamoring of meaningful choices), since you had the option to never change even if the covenants were not hard to switch.

No meaningful choice here whatsoever.

No, you still cannot understand it. And you probably cannot ever be able to as you lack of empathy.
So I am going to say it last time, when something is easy, it is cheap and has no sweet taste of victory nor bitter taste of defeat.

Your horizon is extremely narrow and cannot understand that people want to have a choice that is not cheap as another UI button.

[Popokolara]

No, you still cannot understand it. And you probably cannot ever be able to as you lack of empathy.
So I am going to say it last time, when something is easy, it is cheap and has no sweet taste of victory nor bitter taste of defeat.

Your horizon is extremely narrow and cannot understand that people want to have a choice that is not cheap as another UI button.

Do you believe that covenants make the game brain dead easy when they are freely swappable?
I definitely agree that limitations and choices and hardships make victory meaningful, i just think this sense has existed in competitive mythic raiding, as well as how one strives to improve themselves and to find solutions for problems before SL. As its one of the many things we setup, it might not- or might indeed - rely on it that much. The impact of covenant "freedom" also hinges a lot on tuning around it:
Will the fight suppose you have a mixed bag?
Will they suppose you dont have them or most people have the "wrong" ones?
and so on with other possibilities.

So without knowing that we dont really know how big of a thing it will be not having the optimal covenant. I am worried about people wanting to try multiple experiences in the same week and having to deal with them, for example evangelism for m+. It wont be impossible, but it will be unpleasant.

[kaminaris]

Do you believe that covenants make the game brain dead easy when they are freely swappable?

From the very first sentence I can assume you don't understand it either.

[Elim Garak]

When an aesthetic choice is hard-linked to a gameplay choice - it's a bad choice no matter how you look at it.

[Roxxy]

The way I see it, as in other areas of life, is that taking away ongoing choice (agency) from people is detrimental, which is what happens in shadowlands after the initial covenant choice, you are locked out of things. If you don't want choice then play that way but don't take it away from others that like to have a choice.

[rrayy]

The way I see it, as in other areas of life, is that taking away ongoing choice (agency) from people is detrimental, which is what happens in shadowlands after the initial covenant choice, you are locked out of things. If you don't want choice then play that way but don't take it away from others that like to have a choice.

There is no choice if you are given everything. God forbid you actually have to sacrifice and make a real choice. This has really brought out the entitlement of players.

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It's not bullshit, its the exact same thing. Stopping someone from doing something that YOU don't want to do is what's bullshit. If you want to dedicate your time to playing with one and one only covenant than that's on you. Why do YOU care if I want to play with all four. It's non of your business unless you are going to start paying for my account.

YOu don't ghet to decide. Blizzard does and they decided you only get to play with one. God forbid you have to make an actual choice and actually have to sacrifice something.

[Roxxy]

There is no choice if you are given everything. God forbid you actually have to sacrifice and make a real choice. This has really brought out the entitlement of players.

The choice is to do with content circumstances, aoe, single target, if movement is required, if something is useful in pvp etc.

[Krakan]

There is no choice if you are given everything. God forbid you actually have to sacrifice and make a real choice. This has really brought out the entitlement of players.

- - - Updated - - -

YOu don't ghet to decide. Blizzard does and they decided you only get to play with one. God forbid you have to make an actual choice and actually have to sacrifice something.

I mean it's just a terrible argument...

Picking if you want to be a glad or a ce raider to me isn't compelling. I can be both by rolling a alt of the same class and gearing it up when mythic is on farm that is the reality of this "compelling choice " and it isn't compelling to me.

I always find it weird how the more... less skilled audience always wants to add barricades to harder content. It used to be you just had to git gud.

[Jamais]

I mean it's just a terrible argument...

Picking if you want to be a glad or a ce raider to me isn't compelling. I can be both by rolling a alt of the same class and gearing it up when mythic is on farm that is the reality of this "compelling choice " and it isn't compelling to me.

I always find it weird how the more... less skilled audience always wants to add barricades to harder content. It used to be you just had to git gud.

The audacity of some people...''less skilled audience....barricades...''

How about YOU just ''git gud'' and work with whatever ability you pick?

The whining has long passed the point of obnoxious entitlement.

[razorpax]

the game shall be forever ruined by making the player power attached to covenants no longer attached to what should be a story and cosmetic choice

by allowing players to swap the abilities and not the covenants the game shall surely fall to ruin because theres no way that just creates more exclusion even though theres bonuses to dungeons based on the covenants of some players.

The abilities are super balanced and its not like the mage venthyr is almost entirely a pvp ability

the covenants only worth is that one button that your class gets and allowing us to swap it ruins every choice up until that point because watcher said so in an interview and im going to ignore 90% of the conversation because the words "meaningful choice" were used

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The audacity of some people...''less skilled audience....barricades...''

How about YOU just ''git gud'' and work with whatever ability you pick?

The whining has long passed the point of obnoxious entitlement.

i mean you can allow us to swap abilities and stick with the one you pick...

[A Chozo]

When an aesthetic choice is hard-linked to a gameplay choice - it's a bad choice no matter how you look at it.

That's literally WoW's class design.

[Monteverdi]

Can the regular players do nothing against all that? Can we try to rally the casual players to voice their positive opinions on the forums? I know I will be encouraging people who usually lay low to speak up. As players of WoW, we can't let the game be hijacked by top50 raiding guilds and top10 mythic+ teams. Let's not let them destroy our fun.

There are two competing playstyles here. The first, hitting the majority of players since it describes almost all casual play, are the players who want variety between multiple characters of the same class, want identity that takes the form of player power that comes from other sources besides raw gear. The other playstyle - representing a smaller group of players as it primarily hits the bleeding edge of play - wants there to be little variance between two characters of the same class, wants player power to be tied solely to gear so they aren't forced to play content they don't wish to in order to push their power (especially in cases where they may need to respec and grinding many times over a relatively short time frame in order to be optimal, even if that optimization looks to casual players as simply a small percentage buff), and want the competition that happens to be at the top end to come down to player and team skill, not RNG and external systems.

These two playstyles are both equally valid and I submit that it's a worthwhile goal to find a way to cater to both. As such, I have to disagree with the quoted statement from the OP. There certainly needs to be more discussion around this that's not a circle-jerk of people parroting the positions of top50 guilds, but neither should the concerns of those high end players be pushed aside.

In my mind, from a PVE raiding standpoint, one option is to use the system already in place to unlock cross-realm mythic, and apply it to player variance and external sources of player power. For mythic raids, disable the use of covenant abilities, soulbinds, and maybe even legendaries, until that raid has been defeated by X guilds, at which point it opens up and allows for those things to be used. This preserves the competitive nature of the world first race and beyond without sacrificiing the covenant system that will be something that the players not at the bleeding edge will widely, it seems, enjoy a great deal.

[Krakan]

The audacity of some people...''less skilled audience....barricades...''

How about YOU just ''git gud'' and work with whatever ability you pick?

The whining has long passed the point of obnoxious entitlement.

Isn't how wow works. No matter how well I play I won't beat a player speced for pvp past 2.2 rating if I'm speced for raiding... least not for my class some can double dip.

Not everything is heroic raiding some things need your best.

[kaldari]

To blame the players for taking advantage of what the game offers is disingenuous. Whether current devs like it or not, the past few years have cultivated a high end scene with the difficulty creep of mythic raids and infinitely scaling keys. "Johnny just wants to do his +25 key", well yes, it's in the game. Creating content that requires such exacting performance and then turning around and calling those who run it "meta slaves", it's like cooking a 4 course meal and cake for someone, then calling them a fat bastard who eats too much when they finish it, I mean, you're the one who cooked it?

Also something to consider. Blizzard is not "bringing back meaningful choice into the game". The best you can say is they are bringing back meaningful choice...for the next 2 years. Since the game will then be entirely turned upon its head once again in 2022. Maybe you won't have ANY meaningful choice in the 10.0 system. Which goes to the deeper root cause of all this, that there is no real direction or concept for the game, and every 2 years is a damn crapshoot.