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  1. #1

    Legacy of the void needs to be removed

    Title. They seem that they keep buffing this talent in order to make it viable, if not optimal, for a lot of situations and it just completely ruins the idea of reworking shadow priest.

    There is no point in keeping a talent that basically reverts your rework into a version of a spec you are trying to steer away from. Especially if you make it ‘the’ talent to take, this makes your rework completely 100% pointless. I honestly do not understand their thought process of trying to completely rework a spec because of how bad it’s setup, but then go and make a talent (and buff it) that almost reverts you back to what you don’t want to be.

    Idk I think this is probably the most annoying talent out there if they make it viable, as I am looking forward to finding a different play style with shadow priest, and not be forced to do this same insanity dance we’ve been doing.

  2. #2
    Yup, they are realy trying to make it work for the people who liked it.. but honestly I agree with you in a way.

    Imo it would be better off to see a new enganging talent that just enhances the playstyle and not stirr away to much of the rework.

  3. #3
    You will probably take surrender to madness over LotV anyway. At least in every fight with adds that die in <25sec. And on ST I don't think you won't lose out on too much. Let the people who like it have this talent.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    You will probably take surrender to madness over LotV anyway. At least in every fight with adds that die in <25sec. And on ST I don't think you won't lose out on too much. Let the people who like it have this talent.
    The point isn’t that it’s just there for people who like the talent. That’s not how WoW works, that’s never how it has worked. The issue is that they keep buffing it and it could get to a point to where it’s not just viable, but you would be dumb not to take it. Which this would force every priest to take this or suffer being bad, completely removing the point of the rework.

    Never have they reworked a class and then said “here is a talent for those who didn’t want the rework”, because it makes no sense.

  5. #5
    If you can't play with Legacy of the Void you are free to take the other completely viable options. Many Priests like the soon-to-be old Void Form gameplay and Blizzards is doing the right thing: preserving a form of the playstyle.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    The point isn’t that it’s just there for people who like the talent. That’s not how WoW works, that’s never how it has worked. The issue is that they keep buffing it and it could get to a point to where it’s not just viable, but you would be dumb not to take it. Which this would force every priest to take this or suffer being bad, completely removing the point of the rework.

    Never have they reworked a class and then said “here is a talent for those who didn’t want the rework”, because it makes no sense.
    Might or might not be the case. You don't know how balancing turns out.

    And this is the best option to be honest. Give those who like VF a way to still enjoy it and the others an alternative.
    If they would not have changed VF at all you would also be complaining.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    If you can't play with Legacy of the Void you are free to take the other completely viable options. Many Priests like the soon-to-be old Void Form gameplay and Blizzards is doing the right thing: preserving a form of the playstyle.
    Oh so you can guarantee that every other talent will be just as viable and on par with this for 100% sure. I don’t think you understand what actually happens when blizzard tweaks talents.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Title. They seem that they keep buffing this talent in order to make it viable, if not optimal, for a lot of situations and it just completely ruins the idea of reworking shadow priest.

    There is no point in keeping a talent that basically reverts your rework into a version of a spec you are trying to steer away from. Especially if you make it ‘the’ talent to take, this makes your rework completely 100% pointless. I honestly do not understand their thought process of trying to completely rework a spec because of how bad it’s setup, but then go and make a talent (and buff it) that almost reverts you back to what you don’t want to be.

    Idk I think this is probably the most annoying talent out there if they make it viable, as I am looking forward to finding a different play style with shadow priest, and not be forced to do this same insanity dance we’ve been doing.
    Even if you take LoTV, it's nothing like current shadow. The talent only removes the new duration cap on Void Form, it doesn't remove the new CD on Void Eruption. It just basically affects how you want your damage CD to play out, and the difference won't be that much between the other options.

    As they have it on Beta with the DP change, I can see it pulling ahead for most raid boss fights, but there was never really an issue with Void Form on boss fights; that seems fine. The other two would be stronger for M+ and PvP situations where the OG Void Form had a lot of issues.
    Last edited by Nurasu; 2020-08-19 at 09:40 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    you can guarantee that every other talent will be just as viable and on par with this
    Yes, I can guarantee. It will be as viable. It may not be optimal, but you will still be able to beat the content with the other talents - because they will be viable.

    You will survive.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Yes, I can guarantee. It will be as viable. It may not be optimal, but you will still be able to beat the content with the other talents - because they will be viable.

    You will survive.
    Thank you for proving your ignorance for everyone.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Thank you for proving your ignorance for everyone.
    No problem, mr "delete LotV because I can't handle it".

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Yes, I can guarantee.
    Who are you, a dev? You can't guarantee @&#$ dude, get real.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Thank you for proving your ignorance for everyone.
    You're the one being ignorant, claiming we're going back to the "same insanity dance we've been doing". They're nerfing insanity generation, so Void Form won't be as long no matter what. There will also still be a CD on it no matter what. We'll have to wait until the next tuning pass that they said was coming, but I don't see the difference as even being able to be extreme.

  14. #14
    I hated BFA shadow too, but new LotV doesn't change the 1.5min cooldown on VF? So, even if it's the best talent, still far easier to use now

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    You're the one being ignorant, claiming we're going back to the "same insanity dance we've been doing". They're nerfing insanity generation, so Void Form won't be as long no matter what. There will also still be a CD on it no matter what. We'll have to wait until the next tuning pass that they said was coming, but I don't see the difference as even being able to be extreme.
    Fearing them turning a talent into the best one, forcing you to take it, and revert a major part of your rework is not ignorant. It’s understanding blizzards past.

    Someone saying they know “for sure” all the talents will be equal, is the definition of ignorant.

  16. #16
    i say OP is > 90% right here. why?

    1)
    countering your own new design direction can only lead to shooting yourself in the food. the opening post is imo 100% accurate here. for proof of this be a sw dev, architect and designer for 20+ year, like me, or look at every single moment when blizz did this and from patch to patch moved away cause of obvious problems. if you have a rational mind and play through „when this then that, when this then that...“ scenarios, you will quickly realize that opening post of OP is a fact and ALWAYS a bad idea that never worked or ended well.

    2)
    if your goal is a well rounded class, experience or whatever, you need to make working things in the same direction. this is the reason, why car manufacturers do not use a driving wheel from trucks.

    3)
    for every sane mind it should be obviously, that hurting point 1 or 2 above only can lead to extremes. you dont want extremes in a talent row. why? because having extremes, end in a talent, that everyone have to take or no one take it. the result is a crashed talent row. Blizz works hard to steer away from that. Blizz want talents with small nuances. 3 of them in a row, offers choice. good. 1 extreme in a row, deletes choice. bad. now even your grandma should have got it.

    4)
    the question the op is asking here, is a obvious rational question. lets get back to the car example. if a company that built trucks for many years, decided to build a car, they redesign everything, make it smaller, try to achieve that all fits together. if someone comes up with „lets keep the big steering wheel“ engineers will tell em „ok fine, but then we also need the room for that. this leads to a bigger chasis. this leads to...“ and they came into problems. at some point someone will ask „why you try to solve this problems? i thought you wanna make a car. so fuck off your truck steer wheel and give em a car sized steer wheel and all your problems are gone“.

    so why i repeat that shit here? to show a conceptual natural effect: if the question is coming from a rational logical background, the answer for that question is almost rational and therefore has good reasons. this means, when OP is even able to asking a rational question for logical reasons, this is already a proof in itself, that a rational answer cant be the opposite or an irrational answer and at the same time, when doing what answer say, the effects works out fine automatically. thats not how nature or physics work in the real world. and this is a proof, that implementing a countering mechanic talent, will not work out. by default. idk if someone understand this.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-08-19 at 11:11 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    i say OP is > 90% right here. why?

    1)
    countering your own new design direction can only lead to shooting yourself in the food. the opening post is imo 100% accurate here. for proof of this be a sw dev, architect and designer for 20+ year, like me, or look at every single moment when blizz did this and from patch to patch moved away cause of obvious problems. if you have a rational mind and play through „when this then that, when this then that...“ scenarios, you will quickly realize that opening post of OP is a fact and ALWAYS a bad idea that never worked or ended well.

    2)
    if your goal is a well rounded class, experience or whatever, you need to make working things in the same direction. this is the reason, why car manufacturers do not use a driving wheel from trucks.

    3)
    for every sane mind it should be obviously, that hurting point 1 or 2 above only can lead to extremes. you dont want extremes in a talent row. why? because having extremes, end in a talent, that everyone have to take or no one take it. the result is a crashed talent row. Blizz works hard to steer away from that. Blizz want talents with small nuances. 3 of them in a row, offers choice. good. 1 extreme in a row, deletes choice. bad. now even your grandma should have got it.

    4)
    the question the op is asking here, is a obvious rational question. lets get back to the car example. if a company that built trucks for many years, decided to build a car, they redesign everything, make it smaller, try to achieve that all fits together. if someone comes up with „lets keep the big steering wheel“ engineers will tell em „ok fine, but then we also need the room for that. this leads to a bigger chasis. this leads to...“ and they came into problems. at some point someone will ask „why you try to solve this problems? i thought you wanna make a car. so fuck off your truck steer wheel and give em a car sized steer wheel and all your problems are gone“.

    so why i repeat that shit here? to show a conceptual natural effect: if the question is coming from a rational logical background, the answer for that question is almost rational and therefore has good reasons. this means, when OP is even able to asking a rational question for logical reasons, this is already a proof in itself, that a rational answer cant be the opposite or an irrational answer and at the same time, when doing what answer say, the effects works out fine automatically. thats not how nature or physics work in the real world. and this is a proof, that implementing a countering mechanic talent, will not work out. by default. idk if someone understand this.
    The car analogy is basically on point, they already shown they are going to change things to try and cram this old system back into the spec with these latest changes.

    And yes, it ruins the talent row completely. A talent like this it’s either a novelty choice seeing no real gameplay at all outside of people just doing it for fun or it’s THE one to take. I would prefer sometbing like this to just stay a novelty, but unfortunately with these changes you can probably tell that could very well not be the case. It needs to be a talent that might add something to the reworked rotation, like giving a chance for a free DP or something. Not a choice where it’s you either have X rotation, or Y rotation. Regardless of what people are spouting on here, all the talents won’t balanced where it will be pick one or the other and perform the same, that’s ridiculous.

  18. #18
    There is also the opportunity cost of removing 1 option to support an imitation of the old discarded playstyle.

    Yes every talent takes a slot that could be used for something else but this is not a talent that reverts the class rather than expands on it. That feels bad, especially as a final tier option.

    It runs the risk of being a millstone around Shadows neck as any changes going forwards have to fit not only current Shadow but the LotV version as well. Had the old style it tries to evoke not been so super volatile in how it shot off with damage I would not worry about that but with the new haste stacking it may become an issue again and we don't need more that old problem.

  19. #19
    In the words of so many proclaimed "hardcores" on these forums - if you don't like it, just don't use it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    In the words of so many proclaimed "hardcores" on these forums - if you don't like it, just don't use it.
    That’s not how WoW works, at all. And if you truly believe this, you need to leave your opinions in threads that discuss transmogs or something.

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