Russian Opposition Leader Alexei Navalny Poisoned

[Specialka]

There don't seem to be that many governments around the world that "can be trusted".

And getting "trusted" government doesn't necessarily means things improving in any way (or "Democracy", for that matter - i can easily see people voting for "poison dissidents" guy for other reasons).

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Who does it owe it to and why exactly?

Maybe EU can stop sanctioning and meddling in Russian neighbors too, to, you know, show goodwill as well?

To build up goodwill both sides have to be interested in improving relations in reciprocal way, and that interest seems to be lacking. Only one-sided concessions seem to be perfectly fine with both.

If there is no hope for any (even eventual) union then there is no point of building up goodwill that cannot be cashed out.

Sorry that EU do not eliminate physically its political opponent and silence dissident voices. And most of the time, EU does not do active lobbying as Russia does. Countries are interested in joining EU because they see the benefit of it. WHy should they join Russia while it is declining and it is not the powerhouse it once was ?

[Shalcker]

Sorry that EU do not eliminate physically its political opponent and silence dissident voices.

It certainly does second (though obviously not every dissident voice is even worth hearing, as C19 crisis is plainly showing us).

And most of the time, EU does not do active lobbying as Russia does. Countries are interested in joining EU because they see the benefit of it. WHy should they join Russia while it is declining and it is not the powerhouse it once was ?

What benefits, and at what cost? It looks like old advertisement that has long diverged from reality.

Can you quantify benefits, for example, Ukraine got from choosing EU versus Russia?

Russia certainly could feed it more billions of various subsidies then EU did as well as provide jobs for industrial sector (rather then mostly having raw material and agricultural exports to EU as it does now), all while not forcing price hikes to various services and gas mandated by EU/IMF.

[Machismo]

Are we back on food poisoning, yet?

[Xarkan]

It certainly does second (though obviously not every dissident voice is even worth hearing, as C19 crisis is plainly showing us).

Who did the EU silence exactly? [be aware that if they are [publicly] talking about it from within the EU then the EU probably did not silence them]

[Shalcker]

Who did the EU silence exactly? [be aware that if they are [publicly] talking about it from within the EU then the EU probably did not silence them]

Navalny is publicly talking on various platforms in Russia, does it mean he is not silenced?

I certainly can go to his site, youtube channel, or twitter (to which i am subscribed) and read it anytime i want.

[Machismo]

Do you know what being silenced means?

"So what if we literally tried to murder him, he's not being silenced."

I genuinely hope he's getting paid well to push lie after lie. I'd hate to think he's of such low moral quality, that he'd do it for free.

[Elegiac]

Navalny is publicly talking on various platforms in Russia, does it mean he is not silenced?

You're literally making the "Attempted Chemistry" defense.



Here's a thought; stop pushing lines that are on par with shit uttered by cartoon villains as state policy and maybe people will be more inclined to take you, and Russia, in good faith.

[Ihavewaffles]

It's only a matter of time until Belarus opposition candidate, that darling of western interventionists, decides to eat too much borscht, get a tummy ache, claims she was poisoned by novichok, then miraculously recovers.

[Shalcker]

Do you know what being silenced means?

How exactly is Navalny "silenced" in a way many European dissidents aren't?

Given that it is separate clause from attempt on his life.

[Elegiac]

Are we back on food poisoning, yet?

It's only a matter of time until Belarus opposition candidate, that darling of western interventionists, decides to eat too much borscht, get a tummy ache, claims she was poisoned by novichok, then miraculously recovers.

@Machismo We are, apparently.

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How exactly is Navalny "silenced" in a way many European dissidents aren't?

Given that it is separate clause from attempt on his life.

Again, y'all really trying to make the argument that because an attempt at silencing him didn't succeed it means that we can't say Russia is silencing opposition huh?

Whether or not the ratfuckery succeeds is immaterial, sweetheart. It just means the Russian state is incompetent as well as malicious.

[Shalcker]

Here's a thought; stop pushing lines that are on par with shit uttered by cartoon villains as state policy and maybe people will be more inclined to take you, and Russia, in good faith.

Even after this assault he is still not silenced as far as i see.

So, perhaps drop "silenced" and keep "we don't try to murder for political reasons"? (though US does that occasionally, but EU might get a pass on that one, especially without UK)

[Elegiac]

Even after this assault he is still not silenced as far as i see.

Oh, okay; since you literally cannot argue that Russia is attempting to silence political opposition by means of murder you're just making a semantic argument purely to be contrarian.

So, perhaps drop "silenced" and keep "we don't try to murder for political reasons"? (though US does that occasionally, but EU might get a pass on that one)

No. ♥

[Shalcker]

Oh, okay; since you literally cannot argue that Russia is attempting to silence political opposition by means of murder you're just making a semantic argument purely to be contrarian.

It was "EU do not eliminate physically its political opponent and silence dissident voices." and i only objected to second part. Sure, it's semantics, but important for understanding nuances of current Navalny's position.

If those are attempts to silence him then they are quite incompetent.

Given that you're from US which does not shy from physically eliminating their opponents with collateral damage (including their own citizens if they happen to land on opposing side) maybe you should look for log in an eye of your own country first as far as murder goes? Or it doesn't count if you never give them voice and media clout in the first place?

[Theodarzna]

There don't seem to be that many governments around the world that "can be trusted".

And getting "trusted" government doesn't necessarily means things improving in any way (or "Democracy", for that matter - i can easily see people voting for "poison dissidents" guy for other reasons).

Who does it owe it to and why exactly?

Maybe EU can stop sanctioning and meddling in Russian neighbors too, to, you know, show goodwill as well?

To build up goodwill both sides have to be interested in improving relations in reciprocal way, and that interest seems to be lacking. Only one-sided concessions seem to be perfectly fine with both.

If there is no hope for any (even eventual) union then there is no point of building up goodwill that cannot be cashed out.

Heck, maybe NATO and the EU shouldn't have territorially expanded onto its border and made threats and stationed army garrisons given the two previous invasions from a German empire that Russia has experienced within living memory.

[Theodarzna]

Ruh roh Theo... you're letting the mask slip.

What mask? What are you on about? Have I ever said I liked the EU or NATO?

[Elegiac]

It was "EU do not eliminate physically its political opponent and silence dissident voices." and i only objected to second part. Sure, it's semantics, but important for understanding nuances of current Navalny's position.

It really isn't, you're just adding fluff to try and cushion the raw facts here hun.

If those are attempts to silence him then they are quite incompetent.

I literally just said this. Lol.

Given that you're from US

I am actually not. I'm a resident and was naturalized well into adulthood, and have living family members that have actually been victims of meddling on the part of NATO and the US. And even then, it's immaterial; not everyone is incapable of detaching their cultural background or place of residence or whatever from making an objective assessment. I and others here call out American bullshit -plenty- ranging from Obama's little Drone Depot and deportation happiness to Biden's botched cabinet rollout. Oh, and let's not forget Trump.

What you're not grasping is that the reason why the criticisms of the Russian state do not let up is because y'all have a Trumpian government pretty much full time. The US is bad, but despite what Tulsi Gabbard stans would have you believe the US hasn't been on par with Russia's nonsense for decades.

And at the end of the day, "but American ratfuckery" is a whataboutist argument that is still an admission of wrongdoing. And given that the topic under discussion is Russian wrongdoing, you're also admitting that you're intentionally trying to derail.

"Nuances". Rofl.

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What mask? What are you on about? Have I ever said I liked the EU or NATO?

Nah what they mean is that you're revealing quite a bit in your complete absence of pearl clutching over the actual military invasion of Ukraine by Russia and pretending it's either on par with or somehow justified by a domestic push for EU integration that y'all are trying to repaint as the Anschluss.

Or is this the part where you feign concern for the working class and pretend that EU "technocracy" is somehow preferable to Russian crony capitalism in that regard.

[Felya]

What mask? What are you on about? Have I ever said I liked the EU or NATO?

Ukraine gained its independence from Russia... not the other way around...

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Or is this the part where you feign concern for the working class and pretend that EU "technocracy" is somehow preferable to Russian crony capitalism in that regard.

Ukraine doesn’t have the two things these people value most... oil and brown people to fear monger.

[Machismo]

@Machismo We are, apparently.

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Again, y'all really trying to make the argument that because an attempt at silencing him didn't succeed it means that we can't say Russia is silencing opposition huh?

Whether or not the ratfuckery succeeds is immaterial, sweetheart. It just means the Russian state is incompetent as well as malicious.

You have to give the Russians credit, at lest they are consistent in their absurd lies.

[Shalcker]

What you're not grasping is that the reason why the criticisms of the Russian state do not let up is because y'all have a Trumpian government pretty much full time. The US is bad, but despite what Tulsi Gabbard stans would have you believe the US hasn't been on par with Russia's nonsense for decades.

Yes, it has been much worse. Destroyed countries vs one poisoned media-friendly dissident per year... yeah, doesn't compare.

Given that noone is doing anything but "calling Kremlin out on their bullshit" (as well as sanction everyone personally involved - in organizations where headcount goes into tens to hundreds of thousands, and that are not even supposed to have any assets to be seized in sanctioning countries) they'll continue to do as they please until they are out for other reasons.

As does US.

And at the end of the day, "but American ratfuckery" is a whataboutist argument that is still an admission of wrongdoing. And given that the topic under discussion is Russian wrongdoing, you're also admitting that you're intentionally trying to derail.

Yes, it's admission, so? Nothing is going to change from it.

What is there to "derail"? :/

People are discussing things that are interesting to them.

If you want to discuss details of FSB involvement i'm up for it.
If you want to discuss reasons and motivations i'm up for it.
If you want to discuss how Kremlin's behavior could actually be changed i'm up for it.

And if you want to continue nation bashing and beancounting on "who exactly is worse in which category" we can do that as well.

[Elegiac]

People are discussing things that are interesting to them.

No.

People are discussing an issue, then people like you come in and insist it didn't happen and/or even if it did it doesn't matter because the US does the same or worse.

That's not "discussing interests", that's being a contrarian troll.