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  1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    This may sound weird but the Winter Queen is facing an Arthas like decision. Where she feels like she has to do something very drastic to protect her realm. I get some echos of Arthas feeling the same way about the undead. Not saying she's evil but door is open that she's willing to walk through in order to make sure Ardenwall survives. We already see she's allowing the sacrifice of souls to feed the anima requirements but if things get any worse, what else will she be willing to do? And those under command?
    As many as it takes I'd say.

  2. #862
    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    The Arbiter is as well.

    It's interesting that Arbiter is so different from the other five. They're all humanoids with with very human features, you could even speculate they evolved from the same race whereas the Arbiter looks very foreign and like an automaton. I wonder if it's intentional

  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    It can also apply to Sylvanas burning Teldrassil/starting the war, depending on her final goal. Problem is, with Blizzard you never know if the moral parallels are intended or not.
    They went the extra mile to show sympathy here, so it is quite save to say this is one the times it is acceptable to kill innocents in droves for the good of all.

  4. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "Can choose," yes; but the amount of these souls you encounter in Ardenweald are few and far between, and even they surrender their anima in time to the purpose of Ardenweald - namely, the rebirth of the Wild Gods. Many more are spent in a more diffuse form, as raw anima, powering the ecosystem at every level. Former living souls that go on to become functionaries among the Night Fae are few and far between relative the amount of soul energy arriving.
    You seem to equate souls to anima while, to my understanding, they are not the same. Souls are not comprised of anima but merely contain it. A soul without anima is still a soul, it doesn't need it to function (with the exception of Wild God/Ancient/loa souls for whatever reason). If that was not the case, all the souls ending up in other realms of the Shadowlands would cease to exist the moment their anima was taken away which doesn't happen.

    As for souls assuming animal forms or simply becoming tenders being few and far between, what we see in-game does not necessarily represent the actual scale of Ardenweald or its population. For all we know, the Ardenweald forests may be teeming with these souls but they are not shown to us for gameplay reasons.

  5. #865
    No, not my favourite bear
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  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They went the extra mile to show sympathy here, so it is quite save to say this is one the times it is acceptable to kill innocents in droves for the good of all.
    I wonder if she was really going to let him choose or was simply manipulating him. Those other guys sure as hell got to work without letting the tender know what was going on, and that whole "sacrificing one soul for the forest entire" wasn't really framing the truth properly. But these might be writing slips rather than subtle hints of something malicious.

    Edit: A note for previous discussions. According to gamepedia, it's the huge dream trees that draw in anima to Ardenweald. That seems to imply that it comes from outside somehow, though Ursoc's soul also comes in through the tree canopy. Strangely enough, other covenants don't seem to have a clearly defined "soul/anima web" that fuels the zone, unless I missed something.
    Last edited by Coconut; 2020-09-10 at 09:05 PM.

  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    I wonder if she was really going to let him choose or was simply manipulating him. Those other guys sure as hell got to work without letting the tender know what was going on, and that whole "sacrificing one soul for the forest entire" wasn't really framing the truth properly. But these might be writing slips rather than subtle hints of something malicious.
    Oh she would have let him choose, but if he chose Ursoc, I am certain she would have had him killed, since his grove was doomed either way and the entirety of Ardenweald is at stake.

  8. #868
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    You seem to equate souls to anima while, to my understanding, they are not the same. Souls are not comprised of anima but merely contain it. A soul without anima is still a soul, it doesn't need it to function (with the exception of Wild God/Ancient/loa souls for whatever reason). If that was not the case, all the souls ending up in other realms of the Shadowlands would cease to exist the moment their anima was taken away which doesn't happen.

    As for souls assuming animal forms or simply becoming tenders being few and far between, what we see in-game does not necessarily represent the actual scale of Ardenweald or its population. For all we know, the Ardenweald forests may be teeming with these souls but they are not shown to us for gameplay reasons.
    In Revendreth you discover that if too much anima is extracted from a soul then it discorporates entirely - which is exactly the fate of those souls being stripped by the corrupt Venthyr. Instead of reforming souls the Venthyr are quite literally destroying them as they hoard anima with wild abandon (and for ulterior reasons you later discover).

    Much of Ardenweald is devastated by the Drought in-game, with only a small bit left vital. As you see in the Afterlives cinematic, Ardenweald is on the verge of total collapse - and by the time the Maw Walker arrives the stakes are even higher than shown in this cinematic. All anima is the essence of souls, though; and since the number of tenders is relatively small compared to the sheer number of wildseeds and groves, it stands that the majority of soul-energy in Ardenweald's ecosystem is unincorporated anima from "sacficed souls," or at least souls rendered down into wisp-like entities. The end of the Ardenweald story-arc also confirms this, when the Winter Queen sends her entreaty to Sire Denathrius for Revendreth's stores of raw anima extracted from its charges.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  9. #869
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    You seem to equate souls to anima while, to my understanding, they are not the same. Souls are not comprised of anima but merely contain it. A soul without anima is still a soul, it doesn't need it to function (with the exception of Wild God/Ancient/loa souls for whatever reason). If that was not the case, all the souls ending up in other realms of the Shadowlands would cease to exist the moment their anima was taken away which doesn't happen.

    As for souls assuming animal forms or simply becoming tenders being few and far between, what we see in-game does not necessarily represent the actual scale of Ardenweald or its population. For all we know, the Ardenweald forests may be teeming with these souls but they are not shown to us for gameplay reasons.
    The quests you do kind of confirm that most of the anima that feeds the realms come from Revendreth when they extract anima of souls in order to reform them. Personally I think its kinda fucked up that the Shadowlands depend on "bad" souls to feed the sytem but it is what it is

  10. #870
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    the good. "i will respect your choice but secretly be disappointed" crap.
    Do...do we know that? That's a lot of projection, friend.

    blame everything on sylvanas and the Jailer. when it was the Winter Queen and the others who put the Jailer in prison to begin with.
    We don't know why, but it's implied it ain't very good, and we've had unbiased, omniscient confirmation the Jailer is literally an ancient evil and not a good fellow. I dunno man, that's like saying the situation in Silithus is Aman'thul's fault for trying to stop Sargeras from the whole planet.

    Kinda funny in reference to your signature, though. Apparently making tough decisions for the purposes of protecting your people doesn't matter at all - even when it's the fault of someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    I'm talking in general. It's happening in the first place because the SL are fundamentally flawed. A world where your life force is a fuel and its existence is dependant on some external powers instead of being a fixed realm existing indepedently is not a comforting thought. Not to mention the attacks by other cosmic forces which were happening before Jailer started making his moves.. For a place of eternal rest it sure is anything but.

    And if you want to be nitpicky, current SL aren't in their "natural" state. We know they were different before Jailer was banished.
    Nothing functions that autonomously. You can make the same argument for the real, natural world having the necessity to consume energy like food or water. It would be awesome if we all reproduced asexually and photosynthetically subsisted off an endless energy source - but we don't, and that's tough titties. If the afterlife was an endless cycle and life continuously springs and then funnels into the Shadowlands, I can't think of a realistic concept where concepts like rebirth into nature or purging of sins didn't yield some kind of byproduct or requires some kind of essence.

    We know things were different before the Jailer was banished, but we also know the Jailer has been banished for an incredibly long time. So the concepts we're exploring within the context Shadowlands in terms of their "pristine" state (from the POV of the Archon, Winter Queen, etc.) are still in better shape than they are now, so it stands to reason that the conflict here is still largely what it is because of him.

    If you put aside the obvious "this world is a prison" line biases, which doesn't even refer to the mechanics Shadowlands in the first place, what's left as an alternative? "Everyone going to mega-Hell to fuel the army and plans of a nihilistic omnicidal bald dude is better than any of the other preferences we're introduced to?" That's kind of ridiculous.

    So yeah, it's flawed. But nothing is without its flaws. Outside of the most pristine vision of Heaven, there's no concept of an afterlife that can be perfect, and the ones trying to make it better wouldn't be the ones talking about consuming everything like a 1980s cartoon villain.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2020-09-11 at 12:26 AM.

  11. #871
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    In Revendreth you discover that if too much anima is extracted from a soul then it discorporates entirely - which is exactly the fate of those souls being stripped by the corrupt Venthyr. Instead of reforming souls the Venthyr are quite literally destroying them as they hoard anima with wild abandon (and for ulterior reasons you later discover).

    Much of Ardenweald is devastated by the Drought in-game, with only a small bit left vital. As you see in the Afterlives cinematic, Ardenweald is on the verge of total collapse - and by the time the Maw Walker arrives the stakes are even higher than shown in this cinematic. All anima is the essence of souls, though; and since the number of tenders is relatively small compared to the sheer number of wildseeds and groves, it stands that the majority of soul-energy in Ardenweald's ecosystem is unincorporated anima from "sacficed souls," or at least souls rendered down into wisp-like entities. The end of the Ardenweald story-arc also confirms this, when the Winter Queen sends her entreaty to Sire Denathrius for Revendreth's stores of raw anima extracted from its charges.
    Now that's interesting, I haven't quested in beta so was unaware of that. Thanks for bringing it up.

    I'm still not convinced that lesser souls sacrifice themselves to fuel the rebirth process of greater ones under normal circumstances, but it feels much more likely for that to happen now when Ardenweald's existence itself is at stake.

    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    The quests you do kind of confirm that most of the anima that feeds the realms come from Revendreth when they extract anima of souls in order to reform them. Personally I think its kinda fucked up that the Shadowlands depend on "bad" souls to feed the sytem but it is what it is
    Strange, earlier depictions of the Shadowlands made it seem that all souls contribute equally no matter what realm they end up in.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2020-09-11 at 01:05 AM.

  12. #872

  13. #873
    Epic! Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Bwonsamdi's 'An den ya go back to da livin Loa, da ones who bring de rain, make de crops grow....not wither an die' monologue in BfA seems a bit more meaningful now. And the fact that he put his realm in Ardenweald makes it even more so

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  14. #874
    It would be refreshing if everyone in the Shadowlands was evil. Jailor's faction and the Pantheon of Death faction. Screw 'em all.

    Pro tip: Anyone you have to kneel and swear an oath to usually ends up being a less than savory person.
    Last edited by BALLS BALLS BALLS BALLS; 2020-09-11 at 04:05 AM.

  15. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    Now that's interesting, I haven't quested in beta so was unaware of that. Thanks for bringing it up.

    I'm still not convinced that lesser souls sacrifice themselves to fuel the rebirth process of greater ones under normal circumstances, but it feels much more likely for that to happen now when Ardenweald's existence itself is at stake.



    Strange, earlier depictions of the Shadowlands made it seem that all souls contribute equally no matter what realm they end up in.
    Yeah I thought that too but one of the reasons that you want to depose of Denathrius is that he is hoarding all of the anima extracted from tortured souls and funneling it to the Jailer, anima that would have fed Revendreth and other realms.

  16. #876
    Stood in the Fire Lady Atia's Avatar
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    I'm gonna kill all of these Mr. Tumnuses I can find on the Beta .... revenge for Ursooooc



    Uuuursoooc

  17. #877
    I can't tell if people in here are trolling or....

    You guys realize that they need every piece of anima they can afford, right? Otherwise Ardenweald literally dies, due to Jailer and Sylvanas literally breaking the way the cosmos works. It's clear that Winter Queen and her soldiers find no pleasure in sacrificing Ursoc and the others (why would they?), but they are left with no choice.

    If there's one thing this forum excels at, it's victim-blaming.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  18. #878
    Stood in the Fire Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I can't tell if people in here are trolling or....

    You guys realize that they need every piece of anima they can afford, right? Otherwise Ardenweald literally dies, due to Jailer and Sylvanas literally breaking the way the cosmos works. It's clear that Winter Queen and her soldiers find no pleasure in sacrificing Ursoc and the others (why would they?), but they are left with no choice.

    If there's one thing this forum excels at, it's victim-blaming.
    We save Ysera (and others) just fine during the questing there ....

  19. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    We save Ysera (and others) just fine during the questing there ....
    1) I don't have beta.

    2) I don't care one bit. Winter Queen and her forces are the good guys, Sylvanas and Jailer are the bad guys, the end.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  20. #880
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    The Winter Queen and the Night Fae are basically trying to do all they can to salvage Ardenweald and save as many souls as they can. This unfortunately requires critical wildseeds to effectively be ranked in terms of how important they are to their given worlds - those critical souls are brought to the heart of Ardenweald where anima is more plentiful while the outer groves and lifeseed clusters are either cannibalized for anima or left to lie fallow as a means to preserve the heart of the realm. Ysera, as a monitor of a world containing a slumbering and exceedingly powerful Titan, is manifestly more important than a hyper-evolved and super-charged bear in an objective sense, and that is why Ursoc's anima is sacrificed for the welfare of the rest of the souls in the Night Fae's charge.

    It is unfortunate and sad, but these are desperate times in the Ardenweald and difficult choices have to be made if any souls are to be saved.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

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