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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The cinematic literally shows a vision of the horrible future that awaits Ardenweald and its people if they don't end this crisis, and the Winter Queen is clearly very sad that Ursoc has to be sacrificed, so the intentions of the writers in this cinematic are obvious.
    I guess some people didn't see that she said she would honor the dude's wish even if he wanted to take care of that one soul, Ursoc.

    Such evil lady. The cinematic was all about the tough choices they have to do to keep the realms of death still running. And the lesser point is that Ara'lon got that choice to do for himself.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  2. #902
    Stood in the Fire Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    And why would she do that? All other realms are faced with anima drought as well, Ardenweald just has the worst, but it's not like the other realms are thriving. Besides Denathrius is a servant of Jailer, the one who caused the drought in the first place.

    All life is to be cherished, which is why the Winter Queen was visibly devastated that she had to order this. You can thank Sylvanas Windrunner and her bald master for causing that crisis in the first place.



    But she is the victim, all these people are. They were literally just minding their business and living in peace in Ardenweald, until Jailer and Sylvanas broke the machine of death because they want everyone to suffer.



    I would say these people are actually Sylvanas fanboys, since they claim that Sylvanas' enemies are evil, while ignore the fact that Sylvanas helped cause this drought in the first place.
    At the start of Shadowlands the Winter Queen still thinks the Sire is a good guy - she even sends the Maw Walker to get some anima from him ...

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    At the start of Shadowlands the Winter Queen still thinks the Sire is a good guy - she even sends the Maw Walker to get some anima from him ...
    I don't have beta so I wouldn't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I guess some people didn't see that she said she would honor the dude's wish even if he wanted to take care of that one soul, Ursoc.

    Such evil lady. The cinematic was all about the tough choices they have to do to keep the realms of death still running. And the lesser point is that Ara'lon got that choice to do for himself.
    Sylvanas fanboys are really grasping at straws, aren't they?

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-09-11 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Received Infraction
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Such evil lady. The cinematic was all about the tough choices they have to do to keep the realms of death still running. And the lesser point is that Ara'lon got that choice to do for himself.
    What she did is essentially the same as arthas in stratholme, with the difference being she kept a level head afterwards, or to boil it down further the end justifies the means.

    I guess some people didn't see that she said she would honor the dude's wish even if he wanted to take care of that one soul, Ursoc.
    Doesn't really matter though, another soul would have then died in ursol's place, just from another grove.



    She is of course correct, doesn't make her choice any less evil though
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-11 at 03:09 PM.

  5. #905
    Epic! Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BALLS BALLS BALLS BALLS View Post
    It would be refreshing if everyone in the Shadowlands was evil. Jailor's faction and the Pantheon of Death faction. Screw 'em all.

    Pro tip: Anyone you have to kneel and swear an oath to usually ends up being a less than savory person.
    Even Bwonsamdi himself is all 'me queen' to her. It's nauseating

    However, he was also like that to Rastakhan (less 'ya Majesty' and more 'hehe we got a deal') and look what happened. He dead now
    Last edited by Bwonsamdi the Dead; 2020-09-11 at 03:34 PM.

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  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Sylvanas fanboys are really grasping at straws, aren't they?
    Not sure what people are, but it's obvious some just have to see the negatives in everything, as in seeing the bad in characters. They are even too good, or there have to be some "evil" side to them. Blizzard is 99 of 100 times pretty straight forward with characters like this. One of the 100 is also in Shadowlands, but that also gets quickly known when playing the story there.

    To me that cinematic was great because it had depth, and made choice being the center of it. It is pretty clear to me that the Winter Queen is good at heart and saving the realm is of necessity for all of Shadowlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    She is of course correct, doesn't make her choice any less evil though
    Yeah, I am not gonna bother with this.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Even Bwonsamdi himself is all 'me queen' to her. It's nauseating
    Because she could squash him like a bug and he knows it.

  8. #908
    The cinematic literally shows a vision of the horrible future that awaits Ardenweald and its people if they don't end this crisis
    No, it’s shows her vision of the future. These are not the same. Many terrible things have been done, even if you just stick to WOW, simply because someone with power believed something would happen. That vision shows nothing more then the Queens presumption of what would happen.

    I might also point out, she was wrong. We are riding into Shadow Lands to fix everything. Her vision is simply one in which she was unable to envision the assistance of outsiders.

  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    If there's one thing this forum excels at, it's victim-blaming.
    Says #1 Sylvanas hater lmao. "She's always been evil". Practice what you preach.

  10. #910
    If the story contrives that Sylvanas is actually pulling a Snape on the Jailer, or that the Jailer is good and the rest of the Shadowlands evil, and one or both of them are actually trying by any means necessary to undo a conspiracy to unmake the Cosmos, @Varodoc will of course claim that the story is shit and the characters in question should still be considered villains because they both did things he personally can't forgive. But if others can't forgive the Winter Queen and the satyr guy's choice to cull Ursoc, they are obviously wrong and should just transfer the hatred to the characters @Varodoc hates.

    After all, we shouldn't delve too deeply into the actual morality of their actions. The important thing is that Sylvanas & the Jailer are visually and narratively coded evil, while the Winter Queen is visually coded good, so we should totally accept anything she does.

  11. #911
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Not sure what people are, but it's obvious some just have to see the negatives in everything, as in seeing the bad in characters. They are even too good, or there have to be some "evil" side to them. Blizzard is 99 of 100 times pretty straight forward with characters like this. One of the 100 is also in Shadowlands, but that also gets quickly known when playing the story there.

    To me that cinematic was great because it had depth, and made choice being the center of it. It is pretty clear to me that the Winter Queen is good at heart and saving the realm is of necessity for all of Shadowlands.


    Yeah, I am not gonna bother with this.
    To me that cinematic was surprisingly touching because it showed that Winter Queen, despite being an ancient cosmic deity, cherished all life above everything else and felt no joy or pleasure in sacrificing an innocent soul. The ending is also very optimistic, with the night fae sticking with their Queen to fight the crisis, and I appreciate that. The ending of Bastion by comparison was very dark.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Says #1 Sylvanas hater lmao. "She's always been evil". Practice what you preach.
    In WoW, yes, she has always been evil. Not my fault if you don't know the character.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    What she did is essentially the same as arthas in stratholme, with the difference being she kept a level head afterwards, or to boil it down further the end justifies the means.



    Doesn't really matter though, another soul would have then died in ursol's place, just from another grove.



    She is of course correct, doesn't make her choice any less evil though
    Evil is not the accurate word to use here. She's not doing it out of malice, her intentions are not evil, she's not doing it because she wants to out of some sick sense of enjoyment or whatever.

    Her choice is pragmatic given the situation, and the cinematic makes it apparent that she hated having to make the decision, and is teary eyed and distraught at having to make it.

    I agree that's it's a tough and unsavory decision, but it's not evil. It would have been evil, or at least heartless, to just let things rot and the whole of Ardenweald to whither and die due to inaction and ambivalence.

  13. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah, I am not gonna bother with this.
    Are you saying the sentiment the end justifies the means is not evil? Because this is literally what this is.

  14. #914
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Are you saying the sentiment the end justifies the means is not evil? Because this is literally what this is.
    Consequentialism is not itself inherently evil - it is up to us to decide if said end is truly worth the means to bring it about. The same is true of virtue ethics. Much hinges on the question of whether or not preserving Ardenweald at the cost of some of its charges is a worthy or necessary goal.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  15. #915
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    In WoW, yes, she has always been evil. Not my fault if you don't know the character.
    I've read your posts about how W3 Sylvanas was evil because she mind-controlled (enemy! hostile!) ogres and (sic) gnolls to survive.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Evil is not the accurate word to use here. She's not doing it out of malice, her intentions are not evil, she's not doing it because she wants to out of some sick sense of enjoyment or whatever.

    Her choice is pragmatic given the situation, and the cinematic makes it apparent that she hated having to make the decision, and is teary eyed and distraught at having to make it.
    All of this is correct and it is still evil, due to the fact that thousands of innocents are being killed with no say in the matter. Sure she feels bad about but it, does not change the underlying moral theme, the end justifies the means.


    Sure there are things that have to be done, but you can't just look away from what has been done.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Consequentialism is not itself inherently evil - it is up to us to decide if said end is truly worth the means to bring it about. The same is true of virtue ethics. Much hinges on the question of whether or not preserving Ardenweald at the cost of some of its charges is a worthy or necessary goal.
    From a modern moral perspective it would be, it is the same as throwing 100 kids into a volcano to appease a deity that actually lives in there and demands it or it will destroy the land.


    The moment you trample over innocent lives you do something evil.

    But evil is sometimes necessary, plain and simple.

  17. #917
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Are you saying the sentiment the end justifies the means is not evil? Because this is literally what this is.
    At best you could name it a necessary evil. What they did in Ardenweald is not evil. It's a tough choice which is not made lightly.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  18. #918
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    From a modern moral perspective it would be, it is the same as throwing 100 kids into a volcano to appease a deity that actually lives in there and demands it or it will destroy the land.

    The moment you trample over innocent lives you do something evil.

    But evil is sometimes necessary, plain and simple.
    Not necessarily, no - that would be a pretty surface take on some rather deep philosophical grounds that modern philosophers still wrestle with. If you refuse to act in your above scenario you would be just as evil, as innocent lives would still be lost when said angry deity destroys the land - and your choice would've directly facilitated the outcome. In a scenario where all outcomes could be said to contain evil, the "good" outcome is necessarily the one which minimizes evil. Whether "good" is defined as the complete absence of evil or the least evil action is something still up for debate.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not necessarily, no - that would be a pretty surface take on some rather deep philosophical grounds that modern philosophers still wrestle with. If you refuse to act in your above scenario you would be just as evil, as innocent lives would still be lost when said angry deity destroys the land - and your choice would've directly facilitated the outcome. In a scenario where all outcomes could be said to contain evil, the "good" outcome is necessarily the one which minimizes evil. Whether "good" is defined as the complete absence of evil or the least evil action is something still up for debate.
    It just means there are good choices and it is literally the lesser evil, but evil nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    At best you could name it a necessary evil. What they did in Ardenweald is not evil. It's a tough choice which is not made lightly.
    Such choices are never easy, doesn't make them any less despicable.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-11 at 03:39 PM.

  20. #920
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    tfw when a cinematic about the enhanced night elves is way better and more impactful than the boring one from maldraxxus

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